If I held a gun to....

[kingjust]

your childs head, no make that a baby (trying to avoid the free will B.S.), and I said that everyone has one minute to pray to GOD or Jesus to prevent the baby from dying, would it?

For those of you dumbasses who say yes, let me know when the almighty reattaches the head of all those held against their "WILL" in Iraq, then maybe GOD or Jesus might exist.

Sorry for the drastic measures but some people are blind to what goes against what they believe in. Hopefully this will open peoples mind a little, if not, then all I can say is good luck in your prayers, coincidences do happen.

[Haik]

I think that was very poorly worded, it barely makes any sense.

[bishop]

ditto that...

give us some more coherence kj...

[Technosoul]

During the nutty 1970s we had a group of religious hippy people who were called "The Jesus Freaks" . Chuck Smith the famous doomsday preacher was picked by them as their hero.

They had a motto "get high on Jesus". They had a come-as-you-are religion and yes, for a while they would smoke pot while talking about the Bible.

I met a lot of them around where I lived at the time which just happened to be directly acorss the street from their chruch building which was once a dancehall.

This one girl who was a member would walk around naked with "Jesus loves you" painted all over her body. She said that was the best way she had to bring attention to the "message", the "word" as they call it. Her display confronted one with the choice between lust or Jesus, take you pick.

The would drive around in this hippy bus painted up with relgious signs and abduct run-a-way and homeless teens who were stung out on the needle, and then they would keep them in this room where they would circle around the addicted one and pray in tounges loudly and their prayers would beocme louder and faster as the targeted one was "overcoming" the drug, oddly enough the person abducted into that ritual would not experience the normal withdraws but would simply learn how to get high on the emoitonally charged song-like prayers, and thus become reborn members of the group and would join them to abduct and to save others.

So anyway, one of them told me about what took place in one of their revivial meetings, his guy too out a handgun and pointed it at the head of a new person who was there for the first time, and told him to accept Christ as his savior or die, because that is what the choice is really all about, because if you do not accept Christ you are doomed anyway because, according to Chuck Smith and that other book "The late great planet earth" we are in the last days and the day of judgement is near at hand, perhaps only moments away. As I recall the person conformed by getting down on his knees and making the expected vows.

The group later faded out a bit after one of it's organizations operated by Jim Jones got into the news.

As the group became older they became milder and much less radical in their attitude that "no, is not the answer" and they re-organized their "hippy recovery" mission to become more mainstream with a new mission called "Harvest".

You might have seen those bumper stickers.

Technosoul.

[kingjust]

Okay, here is some coherence for those that cannot think (JK).

If I was about to kill someone you cared about, and you started praying to any deity of choice of stopping the iminent massacre, would the prayer stop me from pulling the trigger. Here is the catch, God cannot mess up my free will, but what about the person that I am threatening against their will.

To me most religious people will say yes, and that is why I said "For those of you dumbasses who say yes, let me know when the almighty reattaches the head of all those held against their "WILL" in Iraq, then maybe GOD or Jesus might exist." Basically stating that if GOD or Jesus exists, why aren't the people held against their will saved.

Let me know if this still isn't clear (Bishop, Haik). Thanks for reading.

[Gorgo]

I don't think most people really believe in the supernatural. That is, they know they can't walk on water, and when they get sick they go to a doctor.

God doesn't seem to do much except "help those that help themselves" (in other words god does nothing) and no one seems to know what god does except work in mysterious ways and do "God's Will. "

[Technosoul]

Allow me to ask the question differently, and let us see if anyone can answer it.

Why should evil, which advoates violence, be granted the right to overpower free will, when goodness, is not allowed to have any say so in human affairs?

If by free will some request world peace why should that be not be granted, for it is not in in contradiction of free will. And yet, war and violence can be imposed upon us agenst our will.

Where is the choice and the purpose of making choices under such a mandate?

Technosoul.

[kingjust]

Allow me to ask the question differently, and let us see if anyone can answer it. Why should evil, which advoates violence, be granted the right to overpower free will, when goodness, is not allowed to have any say so in human affairs? If by free will some request world peace why should that be not be granted, for it is not in in contradiction of free will. And yet, war and violence can be imposed upon us agenst our will. Where is the choice and the purpose of making choices under such a mandate?

Love the question, a little to philosophical, need to make it more personal, I think. It hits home and makes the reader think more. I can say I don't care if Germany and France go at it again. But I will have an opion if some(thing, one, person) gives a scenario of my family being threatened. Know what I mean Tech?

Good post though.

[crayola]

You might also look at it like this:

The people being held captive (against their own will) are the ones obedient to Jesus and smart enough not to rush to war for that stupid little SOB in the White House. The Jesus people believe the advice given in "blessed are the peace makers.." for the warmongers have a 99% chance of falling victim to the death and destruction caused by greedy politicians.

Would I die for the Republicans love of money? Hell no. What a silly question, even if I did ask it myself.

[dalin]

From what I've gleaned, isn't it commonly held that "God's Will" = whatever happens?

So, humans do have free will, just that everything they will is said to be already known by God?

Also, note that I can will anything to be, but that does not equate to an ability to actually bring it to be. Will != action for you programmers. What if in exercising my free will, I chose that I want to walk through my wall? No matter how hard I wish it I cannot, because that wall is one of many hard (), inescapable realities of life. My free will does let me choose whatever path I want to the door beside it, or even to try to walk through it anyway, or to sit here and starve myself to death.

[Iscariot]

God's job isn't to make our lives easier. It is to forgive and judge.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Technosoul, Allow me to ask the question differently, and let us see if anyone can answer it. Why should evil, which advoates violence, be granted the right to overpower free will, when goodness, is not allowed to have any say so in human affairs?

Who says it doesn't? I think your perspective has skewed what you see. I look around and see an incredible amount of human cooperation, both across space and time. What is music but a tradition passed down through many, many generations that does nothing more than lift our spirits. We have literature, mathematics and so on. All of this passed on by a long historic tradition of teachers. Our entire society is an amazing intertwined mesh of social cooperation. This is a great benefit to mankind. Yes there are individuals that selfishly exploit others and hold the lives of others as nothing or worse with contempt but the vast majorities of people do not operate that way at all. One could say that "good" is vastly more powerful than "evil". I have said before and I’ll say it again, the evolutionary adaptation that has made us the species we are is our social behavior.

Starboy

[Mia]

Originally posted by Haik, I think that was very poorly worded, it barely makes any sense.

Ditto again.

[Samildanach]

Its easy to answer, the fact is that if God is real then he has given you the gift of free will. With this freewill you can either commit good or evil acts. Dying at the hands of a terrorist faction if you have led a good life is not a problem. After all you will go to heaven etc, your soul is not in jeopardy. The terrorists are the ones that should have something to fear. They are committing an act of horror which God will punish. that is why God does not step in to stop it. As far as he is concerned the good persons life ending there is not a bad thing, he/she has proved what kind of person they are during their life.
However by that rationale, God might step in to save a bad person who he thinks could be redeemed by good acts in the rest of his life.

[kingjust]

dalin From what I've gleaned, isn't it commonly held that "God's Will" = whatever happens?

I never said "Gods Will"!! Your statement is irrelavent to the thread.

So, humans do have free will, just that everything they will is said to be already known by God?

So my point is if God is so loving, and caring, and powerful, why does he allow such things to happen? If there is a God

Also, note that I can will anything to be, but that does not equate to an ability to actually bring it to be.

Understood, what's the point towards the thread?

Will != action for you programmers. What if in exercising my free will, I chose that I want to walk through my wall? No matter how hard I wish it I cannot, because that wall is one of many hard (), inescapable realities of life. My free will does let me choose whatever path I want to the door beside it, or even to try to walk through it anyway, or to sit here and starve myself to death.

What the hell does this have to do with "why won't the almighty stop someone from taking my free will to live!!!???" which is the basis of my originial post.

Iscariot God's job isn't to make our lives easier. It is to forgive and judge.

How so, according to the "Good Book", he created all plants for us to consume when he initially created us, oh yeah, let's not forget all things that creepeth, much of which we can consume. That made the initial creation of our lives so much easier. Also, who the hell are you to tell the almighty how he is supposed to do his job. What an arrogant, and ignorant answer, much like an answer of convenience... for you. Just my opinion though, so don't take it personal.

But to entertain, how isn't God's job to make our lives easier when all of the so called miracles around the world occur; that would make your statement contradicting, let them suffer, they must have brought (what ever ailments) onto themselves, don't make their lives "easier". Even better how can he judge us (let's say murderers), when he is the only being in (plausible) history to have slaughtered humanity because of disobedience?? Good question don't you think!?! A moral question at that!!

Starboy QUOTE (Technosoul,) Allow me to ask the question differently, and let us see if anyone can answer it. Why should evil, which advoates violence, be granted the right to overpower free will, when goodness, is not allowed to have any say so in human affairs? Who says it doesn't? I think your perspective has skewed what you see. I look around and see an incredible amount of human cooperation, both across space and time. What is music but a tradition passed down through many, many generations that does nothing more than lift our spirits. We have literature, mathematics and so on. All of this passed on by a long historic tradition of teachers. Our entire society is an amazing intertwined mesh of social cooperation. This is a great benefit to mankind. Yes there are individuals that selfishly exploit others and hold the lives of others as nothing or worse with contempt but the vast majorities of people do not operate that way at all. One could say that "good" is vastly more powerful than "evil". I have said before and I’ll say it again, the evolutionary adaptation that has made us the species we are is our social behavior. Starboy

Guys, this is a good start to a new thread, i'm not trying to go off in tagents that much, even though I have done a little myself, but thanks for th response.

Mia QUOTE (Haik,) I think that was very poorly worded, it barely makes any sense. Ditto again

Ok Mia, let me put it in Barney terms:

If I use my free will to kill your child against his/her will, and you, and your whole family who were religious starting praying for me not to kill, do you think the praying would stop me from doing the deed. But here is the twist (in disproving the existance of God), He cannot interfere with my free will, but you are praying for him to do so. And if he was so powerful (hey, he created man kind, if you believe the "Good Book"), why is it that he couldn't. <--And to make this point hit home, all of the hostages (held against their will in Iraq) had love ones praying (to God, can you believe it) that they live; But what happens, OFF WITH THEIR HEAD!!! (The queen in Alice in WonderLand,... LOL)

To me, I think if I was God, I would save lives going against humans free will, because I am omnipotent. So he either does not exist, or he doesn't care. Either way it's a crock!! Just my opinion so don't take it personal.

Samildanach Its easy to answer, the fact is that if God is real then he has given you the gift of free will. With this freewill you can either commit good or evil acts. Dying at the hands of a terrorist faction if you have led a good life is not a problem. After all you will go to heaven etc, your soul is not in jeopardy. The terrorists are the ones that should have something to fear. They are committing an act of horror which God will punish. that is why God does not step in to stop it. As far as he is concerned the good persons life ending there is not a bad thing, he/she has proved what kind of person they are during their life. However by that rationale, God might step in to save a bad person who he thinks could be redeemed by good acts in the rest of his life.

Interesting POV. So if you saw your son or daughter on TV as a hostage, you would be like "Oh it's ok, he/she is going to heaven, so cut off their head, I will see him/her when I die", yeah fucking right. That would make you void of any morals, which supposedly came from GOD, and if your view is really true, why don't we all go to Iraq, become hostages, become decapitated, yippee off to heaven we go!!!!

And even a bigger twist, who says that the captures are not doing gods work (according to their belief, you can't judge them either, only their God can (what a bitch))? Hmmmmm, something to ponder.

And just for everyone to think about: It's funny how God cannot be proven, but believers will mold comments/lives around what they "think" God is doing, when honestly, they have no fucking clue what this unproven being is/might/want to do. That's like saying my daughter, who hasn't been concieved, wants to go to Yale, and be the first female to join the Skull and Bones secret society, and based my life off of the nonexistant daughter. That would be grounds for institutionalization. Once again, my opion don't take it personal.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by kingjust, It's funny how God cannot be proven, but believers will mold comments/lives around what they "think" God is doing, when honestly, they have no fucking clue what this unproven being is/might/want to do. That's like saying my daughter, who hasn't been concieved, wants to go to Yale, and be the first female to join the Skull and Bones secret society, and based my life off of the nonexistant daughter. That would be grounds for institutionalization. Once again, my opion don't take it personal.

As funny as it may seem parents do some version of that it all the time. Those pesky kids usually do not want to cooperate. Apparently they don't know their own minds.

Starboy

[Samildanach]

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not religious in the slightest. It was however the only rationale I could come up with that would justify why God would not step in.

[crayola]

"The terrorist are the ones that should have something to fear"

Howso? They are seeing themselves as defending their faith, their religious beliefs. For this self defense they are deemed "terrorists".

Will God punish them? Not anymore than God punishes those who cause the defenders of their faith to react.

The spirit of God is within men. Men move the spirit where it will go. War or peace. God is there in both as the evil and the good. The punisher and the justifier. Thus God gets all the credit of freewill.

[kingjust]

crayola "The terrorist are the ones that should have something to fear" Howso? They are seeing themselves as defending their faith, their religious beliefs. For this self defense they are deemed "terrorists". Will God punish them? Not anymore than God punishes those who cause the defenders of their faith to react. The spirit of God is within men. Men move the spirit where it will go. War or peace. God is there in both as the evil and the good. The punisher and the justifier. Thus God gets all the credit of freewill

Philisophocial yes, interpreting an answer to my question... I don't know.

How about this, does my little scenario disprove the existance of GOD?

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not religious in the slightest. It was however the only rationale I could come up with that would justify why God would not step in.

I got you, but also considering that, wouldn't it be fair to say then that God is preventing someone from going to Hell. What kind of rationale (God's that is) is that????

[Samildanach]

I would say that as God created man he would not want to damn his own creations if he didn't have to.