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PeterAngelo · Jan 23, 2004, 08:00 pm

I'm afraid that the truth is there is no right or wrong - there is only what you can get away with.

It is an ugly truth but is was true in antiquity and it is true today - even in America.

We have what amounts to an organized-crime gang government that routinely tramples people deliberately, and there is rarely any recourse unless you are really, really rich.

Justice is very personal and usually is delivered the same way.

Kill my children and hide - forever.

No "justice" - No peace.

There are at least twenty-two people that I will make every effort to kill if I am ever diagnosed with a terminal disease.

They have earned it but I let them live so I can take proper care of my six children and four grand-children.

I'm sixty and very healthy - lucky for them.

Temporary reprieve - at best.

Justice (vengence - the same thing) is mine - when I'm ready.

Ron · Jan 24, 2004, 12:50 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PeterAngelo,)
I'm afraid that the truth is there is no right or wrong - there is only what you can get away with.

It is an ugly truth but is was true in antiquity and it is true today - even in America.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Am I the only one on this board that thinks this view to be inaccurate? Perhaps I have strolled into the wrong group. The posts here lend themselves to doom and gloom mentality- there is no hope, there is no reason we are here, there is no reason to continue except to serve myself. I certainly do not share this world view. Anyone, anyone at all, agree with me, even a little?????

G. Adams · Jan 24, 2004, 01:09 am

I do in a way, I don't in others. There is no purpose for being on this earth except for the one you give yourself. That's not negative, that's neutral. And it's liberating in it's logical truth. The purpose I've given myself is to follow my conscience and live a life without regret. They don't always match up, but no regrets comes before my conscience.

I do believe their is hope for humanity, I'm a communist afterall, I have to believe there is or communism can't work. I believe that humanity will finally come to the conclusion that they can live fulfilling lives without doing it at the expense of others, which we currently do.

I don't however believe in universal values, or in justice, or in right or wrong. Its not negative, it's just realist. But, as my views on what is moral (again subjective, not universal) for a general majority, I'm happy. It doesn't make it universal though. To be universal, values would have to be instilled by a higher power, and I can't rely on that to be true. I guess you could argue that we naturally, without god, develop our own moralities, but that would be a result of nurture, so subjective.

Not to mention that there are some values that totally split people. I think that capital punishment is appalling and barbaric, and there are millions who agree with me, and millions who don't. And on something as fundamental as taking life, if their were universal values, you think that would be the biggie.

castille · Jan 24, 2004, 02:39 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Ron,)
I know of no culture where theft is a "good" thing, here and now or any time in history.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

In ancient Sparta, young soldiers were trained to steal for their food. If they were caught stealing, they were punished for their stupidity. If they were not caught, they were congratulated.

G. Adams · Jan 24, 2004, 02:51 am

Ahh, Sparta, knew I forgot some good examples, you beat me to that one. They also practised infanticide, newborns were brought before the council and if not fit to join Spartan society, tossed off the cliffs.

Man Against Time · Jan 24, 2004, 09:37 am

The initial post in this thread said that Justice can help toward garbage like "equality." Equality is the opposite of Justice, since by nature, all things are fundamentally unequal. Equality then implies a levelling, a bringing down of the high, to the lowest common denominator.

Justice is not "universal" in that rarely is one punishment or rule or code justifiably applied to all people. What is proper for warriors is certainly wrong for artisans, and what is proper for priests or philosophers or ascetics is obviously wrong for a worker. Read The Republic or something.

darwinist · Jan 24, 2004, 10:50 am

PeterAngelo

Quote:

I'm afraid that the truth is there is no right or wrong - there is only what you can get away with.

It is an ugly truth but is was true in antiquity and it is true today - even in America.

We have what amounts to an organized-crime gang government that routinely tramples people deliberately, and there is rarely any recourse unless you are really, really rich.

I am afraid that you are wrong. There is a right and wrong. For instance, we have to go along way back into history. To the beginning of mankind in fact. All basis of human life boils down to one thing. That is survivial! As a gerenal rule, anything that helps your survival is right. Then anything that does not help your survival is wrong. Continuing these facts in a logically fashion is not hard. Only in a few social situations are you going to do something wrong for your survivial. These situations only appear in recent socoity. So are not relevent for the arguement. Being a social creature as well as a survivial creature. Humans have grown beyond there roots.

castille
[/quote]

Quote:Originally Posted by (Ron,)
I know of no culture where theft is a "good" thing, here and now or any time in history.

In ancient Sparta, young soldiers were trained to steal for their food. If they were caught stealing, they were punished for their stupidity. If they were not caught, they were congratulated.

Quote:

Nice example, which i think is incorrect with the spirit here. This only applied to soldiers. Most probarly in war time. So taking spoils from there victory. Which every army does. Where talking about society as a whole. Not isolated instances of this kind. Otherwise you can lock up the armies of each nation of the world today.

The initial post in this thread said that Justice can help toward garbage like "equality." Equality is the opposite of Justice, since by nature, all things are fundamentally unequal. Equality then implies a levelling, a bringing down of the high, to the lowest common denominator.

Justice is not "universal" in that rarely is one punishment or rule or code justifiably applied to all people. What is proper for warriors is certainly wrong for artisans, and what is proper for priests or philosophers or ascetics is obviously wrong for a worker. Read The Republic or something.[quote]

Garbage like 'eguality', are you serious??? Or are you a member of the 'KKK' ???

People are not equal, this much is true. People are likely never to be equal. This is also true. But equality and equal people are not one in the same. Justice is about a form of equality. But it has been perversed by the acts, like some people are more equal than others. And laws not being applied the same to rich and poor people.

You can treat people equal, even if those people are not equal. For instance, a law stating that everyone pays 30% tax. No matter what there income is. Or everone getting 5 years of imprisionment of sniffing 50 grams of coke. Instead of 'robbie williams', sniffing grams of coke, then getting 'good olde robbie, the bad boy of pop.' Then Mr 'Joe Average' getting 5 years, locked up in a cell for doing the same thing!

Man Against Time · Jan 24, 2004, 10:59 am

Garbage like 'eguality', are you serious???

Yes. Do you seriously mean to imply it is fair to hold fundamentally different people to identical standards? Do you believe children should be able to vote, or apply for Driver's Licenses, or go to jail if they walk out of a store with something?

Or are you a member of the 'KKK' ???

Worthless vomit that doesnt even belong in the discussion.

People are not equal, this much is true. People are likely never to be equal. This is also true.

Closes the case for me. Unless you want to argue why it is fair to hold different people to the same codes of conduct, which, objectively, puts the burden of proof on you. A simple look around the world will show you that different things warrant different rules, punishments, rewards, and thus, different justice. So why should things be otherwise?

Justice is about a form of equality.

"People are not equal, this much is true. People are likely never to be equal." Shouldnt we logically conclude then, if justice is a form of equality, and people cannot be equal, that there can be no justice?

You can treat people equal, even if those people are not equal.

That sounds unfair to everyone. Why does it not resonate as unfair to you?

For instance, a law stating that everyone pays 30% tax.

Even kids who work at McDonalds to earn money for 9th grade hockey camp?

No matter what there income is.

This strikes you as respectful of the qualitative differences you admitted are present in man?

Or everone getting 5 years of imprisionment of sniffing 50 grams of coke. Instead of 'robbie williams', sniffing grams of coke, then getting 'good olde robbie, the bad boy of pop.' Then Mr 'Joe Average' getting 5 years, locked up in a cell for doing the same thing!

What if an 11 year old does it? What if its done as a matter of some kind of religious ceremony? Same penalty?

darwinist · Jan 24, 2004, 11:28 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Yes. Do you seriously mean to imply it is fair to hold fundamentally different people to identical standards? Do you believe children should be able to vote, or apply for Driver's Licenses, or go to jail if they walk out of a store with something?
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Ok, i will address child law. If you wish me too. Should children be able to vote. What do you count as a child? Someone the age of 16, perhaps? You can't vote for the government, but just joined the army. The government that he couldn't vote for, goes to war. And he dies! Child law is separte from Adult law for good reason. Children can not be held responsible for all of there actions. As there responsiblity is also held by the parent. Therefore they have not become a 'person' yet. For 'people' to be applied to them in my arguement.

Do you mean to imply that a black person and a white person should not have a equal chance at a job. If there have the same education and experience?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
"People are not equal, this much is true. People are likely never to be equal." Shouldnt we logically conclude then, if justice is a form of equality, and people cannot be equal, that there can be no justice?
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Yes we can conclude that now. As there is very little justice in the world today.

Man Against Time · Jan 24, 2004, 11:38 am

You have only addressed little specific cases, and said nothing of the principles behind Justice. An acceptable definition of the principles of justice is necessary before proceeding toward steps to implement justice, so, the incidences you are citing are meaningless without some big picture to orient them.

I am arguing that the principle of Justice demands attention and respect for differences among and between peoples. You for some reason disagree with this. On what principles do you not believe in my argument?

(In other words- this is the philosophy and religion forum, we are not talking about whether or not affirmative action is fair, we are addressing Absolutes here)

PeterAngelo · Jan 24, 2004, 09:15 pm

I have been injured by deliberate criminals posing as public oficials in the community I live in to such an aggregious degree that I do little else but wish I could slice their throats, and all members of their families.

The only reason I don't is because of the modern techniques of forensics, investigation, and all that stuff.

If this was a century ago they would be dead now. Or I would be.

It is not "right or wrong" that has anything to do with it.

Humans use the ability to reason as a tool - just another weapon in the arsenal - in order to get what our emotions demand.

When we are hurt - real or imagined - there is a chemical response that has to be dealt with.

It is inexorable and cannot be stopped once it is in play.

Bad feelings do not go away - look at the British Empire and the Middle East.

The battle of Western banks and Eastern Banks has gone on for two thousand years and is only getting meaner.

Hate grows - love dies.

We are given one directive. Live long enough to procreate and then die.

Anything that happens in between is meaningful only to the participants.

Some people go to see "Nightmare on Elm Street" to get pointers on serial killing.

Enlistment officers I have spoken to lately tell me that there is a surge in people wanting to join so they can get a "licence to kill". They WANT to go to Iraq and kill people for fun.

These people are among us all the time.

They don't kill for the same reason I don't - self interest. Given the chance, or the licence, they and I would do what our hearts really want to do.

I actually consider myself a coward for not eating their hearts - literally.

"Right and Wrong"?

Get real - we live fat and happy in America because our military-industrial complex butchers third world peasants so we can steal their resources and have cheap labor. We, and Britain, cause deliberate division and hostility, arm both opponents, and sit back while they do our killing for us.

That is fact.

We are all serial murderers in the big picture.

Most will deny this and call me a nut.

DENIAL, HYPOCRICY, LIES.

That is all we are - talking worms.

The firtst lesson a Christian child learns is the Santa Lie.

The child learns eventually that there is no magic, no Santa.

They also figure out that if they keep the silent conspiracy going they can "milk" a year or two extra by lying back to their parents.

The child learns that the secret conspiracy works "only" until one side fessus up. Then it's over.

That is what whistle-blowers find out.

Truth will get you into more trouble than anything else.

Ask Christ, Ghandi, King, and my hero - Bin Laden.

To make it worse - everyone knows that everyone is a liar.

Everyone knows that the only reason they aren't in jail is because they haven't been caught yet. Let someone get "caught", convicted, and left with a felony conviction - they are forever branded no good.

BULL

It is all a lie - all of life is a lie - and we all play.

Anyone who tells the truth is banished from family, friends, community, and everywhere.

We can't even handle the truth about our own mortality, much less the horror and cruelty that marks most of life.

Most old people, when you speak to them one on one, are glad they will be dead soon and out of this miserable existance.

Old age is the final insult to a hard, lonely, frightening life.

Wonder why the world is insane?

I don't.

darwinist · Jan 25, 2004, 07:32 am

PeterAngelo
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I have been injured by deliberate criminals posing as public oficials in the community I live in to such an aggregious degree that I do little else but wish I could slice their throats, and all members of their families.

The only reason I don't is because of the modern techniques of forensics, investigation, and all that stuff.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Your a strange fellow. You believe the police have the power to lock you up, for murdering all of these people. Yet you don't believe they have the power to catch these people! ???

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Some people go to see "Nightmare on Elm Street" to get pointers on serial killing.

Enlistment officers I have spoken to lately tell me that there is a surge in people wanting to join so they can get a "licence to kill". They WANT to go to Iraq and kill people for fun.

These people are among us all the time.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Yes the dieseae is in society. Because society has been allowed to errode, by those in power. The best way to maintain power, is for those (the massess) to be fighting each other and killing each other. Those in between ( middle class) to be the police force. To control the levels of killing and riots. So those on top, can enjoy the money and the power.

Man Against Time

Principles behind Justice:

Okay, here are my priniciples:-
1) Equality.
2) You are not allow to do anything to harm another person. Physically or financially.

There will be different set of goals for those with diminised responisibility. ie - Children as mention in the previous post.

As you can see from my reply to the other guy. Justice is not the only thing that has to be changed. It is the whole landscape of society. But i try to keep, each disscussion. In it's relevent thread. If your interested, check out my thread on 'law ans Order'. Plus a few others.

As you don't understand, why i don't see your points. On 5 years for everyone, if they sniff coke. Then i also, don't see your point. Remember, no one is forced to commit a crime.

Man Against Time · Jan 25, 2004, 10:34 am

Okay, here are my priniciples:-
1) Equality.

But I have already noted several times when equality is inappropriate. Is it ok to hold a high school freshman who works at McDonalds to the same standards as a Beverly Hills attorney? Is it ok to hold an 11 year old to the same standards as a 38 year old? If this was ever even tried, this would be a disaster. Its wrong in principle and wrong in practice. So, there goes the idea that Justice is equality.
Actually, justice is the opposite, it implies INEQUALITY. For example, when a murderer is thrown in jail, or executed, this is INEQUALITY, because as a murderer, he has set himself apart from the others, proven he is unequal, thus, acts normally wrong to commit against a man (imprisonment, exile, execution, etc), are now suddenly appropriate and necessary.

2) You are not allow to do anything to harm another person. Physically or financially.

So the Justice system then can do nothing whatsoever that will inflict pain, or cause loss of money or opportunity to make money? Ridiculous

There will be different set of goals for those with diminised responisibility. ie - Children as mention in the previous post.

In other words, Equality as a Principle is clearly wrong and NEEDS SPECIAL RULES, as in, IS NOT ABOUT EQUALITY. What youre saying then is, Equality is good as a buzzword and catch phrase to sound sophisticated, but god help us if we try and implement it, we will have to make rules to prevent it.

darwinist · Jan 25, 2004, 05:04 pm

Man Against Time
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
But I have already noted several times when equality is inappropriate. Is it ok to hold a high school freshman who works at McDonalds to the same standards as a Beverly Hills attorney? Is it ok to hold an 11 year old to the same standards as a 38 year old? If this was ever even tried, this would be a disaster. Its wrong in principle and wrong in practice. So, there goes the idea that Justice is equality.
Actually, justice is the opposite, it implies INEQUALITY. For example, when a murderer is thrown in jail, or executed, this is INEQUALITY, because as a murderer, he has set himself apart from the others, proven he is unequal, thus, acts normally wrong to commit against a man (imprisonment, exile, execution, etc), are now suddenly appropriate and necessary.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I have noted several times, when 'YOU' think equality is inappropriate. Do you agree with equal pay for women, if there have the same education and experience as a man?
So i return the question above and this one back:-
Why is it inappropriate to hold the same sentence for a high school freshman who works at McDonalds to the same standards as a Beverly Hills attorney?

Yes, that is kind of my point. If some one breaks the law. They have broken the 'equality' rule. So they should be punished for it!

Perhaps i just bad at expressing, what i mean. :)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
So the Justice system then can do nothing whatsoever that will inflict pain, or cause loss of money or opportunity to make money? Ridiculous<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Yes, i know it sounds ridiculous! Perhaps this is just circle logic. But as you mention. They have proven that there INEQUALITY from society. So society should punish them as a whole. By the very punishment that goes against the grain of the second priniciple.

Consider the following:-

Many of the reasons for violence can be traced to economic inequalities, but even more basic is the common belief in violence and coercion as means to an end. This belief is so pervasive that we're often not even aware of it. Perhaps the most important example of this is government. Belief in the necessity of coercion is the foundation of government. Belief in the necessity of coercive organization, that is, government, springs from the belief that people are incapable of voluntary cooperation, and that the only way to get them to behave in a civilized manner is to force them to do so - at the point of a gun if necessary. This leads to things such as extortion. Ultimately, it all boils down to the belief that it's OK to push people around if you're powerful enough to do it.

This belief is, of course, reflected in daily life. All too many of us consider violence a means to get what we want, be it money, possessions, or dominance. There are millions of petty criminals who use violence - muggings, armed robberies, and carjackings - to get what they want. And there are literally millions of other thugs who intimidate, beat and rape those weaker than themselves - often, their wives and children - in order to (temporarily) feel the power and dominance that they crave. What makes this even more destructive than it is in and of itself is that children see this type of behavior modeled by their parents and other adults, and then imitate it when they're adults, at which point their children see it modeled, and later imitate it, continuing the chain through generation after generation. The end result is that we live in a culture of violence, in which many, many people live with violence on a day-to-day basis, and in which almost everyone stands at least some risk of being violently assaulted.

Compounding all of this, psychologically, is the constant portrayal (and often glamorization) of violence in the media. The end result is that even those of us at low risk of becoming victims are often at least unconsciously preoccupied by the possibility of it, and almost no one can see any solution to violence except more violence, usually in institutional form - more cops, more prisons, more sadistic sentencing, and more barbaric prison conditions. That these things do nothing to eliminate the roots of violence is hardly surprising.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
In other words, Equality as a Principle is clearly wrong and NEEDS SPECIAL RULES, as in, IS NOT ABOUT EQUALITY. What youre saying then is, Equality is good as a buzzword and catch phrase to sound sophisticated, but god help us if we try and implement it, we will have to make rules to prevent it. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I have to fire the question. Which laws don't have special rules now? They all do, now. But based on what is best to keep the rich and the powerful. Rich and powerful.

Perhaps i need to extent priniciple one. I need to think about it.

Good help us now. I have the same rights as any European in Europe. But can i get those laws enforced!!! Not for love nor money.....

Man Against Time · Jan 25, 2004, 09:35 pm

What did all of that have to do with the fact that Justice implies inequality? Unless, again, you want to argue that it is right to hold fundamentally different people to identical standards. Do you argue this? If not, you are admitting justice is not about equality whatsoever.

darwinist · Jan 30, 2004, 03:47 am

The above. Is about how justice, in todays society is based upon 'fear' and 'violence'. The objective of those Elite's in power. Is to continue there hold / grip on power. This rule's all other actions that they do. Not what is best for the country or for the people. Leading to knee jerk reactions. Remember, that the government is responisle for laws and justice.

Government does this directly through the threat (and often the use) of armed force. Business relies on governmental coercion to maintain an inequitable social system in which it can flourish; it often battens off contracts funded by the monies. It often influences the government to give it unfair advantages, either through subsidies or through artificial limitation of competition. As for religion, when they've had the power to do so, patriarchal religions such as christianity and islam have invariably used coercion to enforce their "moral" dictates. This is most noticeable in the activities of the so-called right to life movement, which has employed physical harassment, arson, bombings, and murder to achieve its ends.

The end result of all of this institutionalized violence and coercion is a seemingly endless cycle of authoritarian attempts to control others, with attendant resistance, followed by further increases in the use of violence and coercion by the controllers. The truly sad thing about all this is that those who are the victims of violence and coercion often see no other way to resist but through their own use of violence and coercion (either directly or via the government) - and so the cycle continues, generation after generation.

PeterAngelo · Jan 30, 2004, 06:20 am

darwinist:

The police (all police, FBI, CIA, etc) are management tools used by the ruling elite to cull the herd.

They don't "arrest" judges.

The first line in the first text book you open when you study law is, "The purpose of the law is to resolve disputes without violence."

Of course inequality exists. But it should not be exploited or violence may occur.

Of course there is deliberate crime, violent and white collar. Both are damaging and evil - but white collar touches many more lives.

A Jeffrey Dahmer cannot compare to George Bush for murder or mahhem. Yet Bush is honored and gains wealth for making serial killing and war (same thing) the method of governance.

If I am a strange fellow for understanding the "big picture", good.

If my puny attempt to spread ideas grows and takes a thousand years to ripen - good.

I am a raging success in my world and am at the same stage as Paul O'Neal. I am old and rich. Bring it on.

Man Against Time · Jan 30, 2004, 11:05 am

Paul O'Neil the Yankee?

FC Mellon · Jan 30, 2004, 12:01 pm

If one finds "The quality of being just or fair" not present in their lives...then maybe one could ask herself/himself: Is it lack of 'Justice' which makes one feel things are so unjust/unfair...or is it 'lack of understanding' other'things/ones' which makes their lives so 'miserable in their own minds'. If this were a perfect world...there might still be 'some one(s)' looking for the 'injustice of perfection' which denies one to be vocal about the 'justice of their imperfections'. If one is unhappy about everything...then I can start to understand how they may feel they have been 'dealt from the bottom of the deck'...but one can always 'ask for a cut'...or 'go play with others' who might satisfy their 'frustrations of feelings' of always feeling like 'they have lost'. There is always another 'game in town'...and in this country and some others one has the 'freedom to go look for another game' when they feel they may not be dealt a fair hand....actually I find this opportunity to be 'quite just'...unlike others who bar some from even leaving their 'gaming areas'. The world is not perfect...and neither are any of US..but we can always keep trying to 'make things Just'...for ourselves and everyone who enjoys these qualities of being 'just and fair'. 8?)

PeterAngelo · Jan 30, 2004, 07:32 pm

Jan 24, 2004, 12:50 am	#22 (permalink) (top)
Ron Sedimentary Rock Location: Home, WA Posts: 9	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PeterAngelo,) I'm afraid that the truth is there is no right or wrong - there is only what you can get away with. It is an ugly truth but is was true in antiquity and it is true today - even in America.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Am I the only one on this board that thinks this view to be inaccurate? Perhaps I have strolled into the wrong group. The posts here lend themselves to doom and gloom mentality- there is no hope, there is no reason we are here, there is no reason to continue except to serve myself. I certainly do not share this world view. Anyone, anyone at all, agree with me, even a little????? Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15 Ron http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron

Jan 24, 2004, 01:09 am	#23 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,174	I do in a way, I don't in others. There is no purpose for being on this earth except for the one you give yourself. That's not negative, that's neutral. And it's liberating in it's logical truth. The purpose I've given myself is to follow my conscience and live a life without regret. They don't always match up, but no regrets comes before my conscience. I do believe their is hope for humanity, I'm a communist afterall, I have to believe there is or communism can't work. I believe that humanity will finally come to the conclusion that they can live fulfilling lives without doing it at the expense of others, which we currently do. I don't however believe in universal values, or in justice, or in right or wrong. Its not negative, it's just realist. But, as my views on what is moral (again subjective, not universal) for a general majority, I'm happy. It doesn't make it universal though. To be universal, values would have to be instilled by a higher power, and I can't rely on that to be true. I guess you could argue that we naturally, without god, develop our own moralities, but that would be a result of nurture, so subjective. Not to mention that there are some values that totally split people. I think that capital punishment is appalling and barbaric, and there are millions who agree with me, and millions who don't. And on something as fundamental as taking life, if their were universal values, you think that would be the biggie. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jan 24, 2004, 02:39 am	#24 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Ron,) I know of no culture where theft is a "good" thing, here and now or any time in history.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> In ancient Sparta, young soldiers were trained to steal for their food. If they were caught stealing, they were punished for their stupidity. If they were not caught, they were congratulated. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Jan 24, 2004, 02:51 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,174	Ahh, Sparta, knew I forgot some good examples, you beat me to that one. They also practised infanticide, newborns were brought before the council and if not fit to join Spartan society, tossed off the cliffs. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jan 24, 2004, 09:37 am	#26 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	The initial post in this thread said that Justice can help toward garbage like "equality." Equality is the opposite of Justice, since by nature, all things are fundamentally unequal. Equality then implies a levelling, a bringing down of the high, to the lowest common denominator. Justice is not "universal" in that rarely is one punishment or rule or code justifiably applied to all people. What is proper for warriors is certainly wrong for artisans, and what is proper for priests or philosophers or ascetics is obviously wrong for a worker. Read The Republic or something. "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Jan 23, 2004, 08:00 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
PeterAngelo Igneous Magma Posts: 169	I'm afraid that the truth is there is no right or wrong - there is only what you can get away with. It is an ugly truth but is was true in antiquity and it is true today - even in America. We have what amounts to an organized-crime gang government that routinely tramples people deliberately, and there is rarely any recourse unless you are really, really rich. Justice is very personal and usually is delivered the same way. Kill my children and hide - forever. No "justice" - No peace. There are at least twenty-two people that I will make every effort to kill if I am ever diagnosed with a terminal disease. They have earned it but I let them live so I can take proper care of my six children and four grand-children. I'm sixty and very healthy - lucky for them. Temporary reprieve - at best. Justice (vengence - the same thing) is mine - when I'm ready.

Jan 24, 2004, 10:59 am	#28 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	Garbage like 'eguality', are you serious??? Yes. Do you seriously mean to imply it is fair to hold fundamentally different people to identical standards? Do you believe children should be able to vote, or apply for Driver's Licenses, or go to jail if they walk out of a store with something? Or are you a member of the 'KKK' ??? Worthless vomit that doesnt even belong in the discussion. People are not equal, this much is true. People are likely never to be equal. This is also true. Closes the case for me. Unless you want to argue why it is fair to hold different people to the same codes of conduct, which, objectively, puts the burden of proof on you. A simple look around the world will show you that different things warrant different rules, punishments, rewards, and thus, different justice. So why should things be otherwise? Justice is about a form of equality. "People are not equal, this much is true. People are likely never to be equal." Shouldnt we logically conclude then, if justice is a form of equality, and people cannot be equal, that there can be no justice? You can treat people equal, even if those people are not equal. That sounds unfair to everyone. Why does it not resonate as unfair to you? For instance, a law stating that everyone pays 30% tax. Even kids who work at McDonalds to earn money for 9th grade hockey camp? No matter what there income is. This strikes you as respectful of the qualitative differences you admitted are present in man? Or everone getting 5 years of imprisionment of sniffing 50 grams of coke. Instead of 'robbie williams', sniffing grams of coke, then getting 'good olde robbie, the bad boy of pop.' Then Mr 'Joe Average' getting 5 years, locked up in a cell for doing the same thing! What if an 11 year old does it? What if its done as a matter of some kind of religious ceremony? Same penalty? "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Jan 24, 2004, 11:28 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Yes. Do you seriously mean to imply it is fair to hold fundamentally different people to identical standards? Do you believe children should be able to vote, or apply for Driver's Licenses, or go to jail if they walk out of a store with something? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Ok, i will address child law. If you wish me too. Should children be able to vote. What do you count as a child? Someone the age of 16, perhaps? You can't vote for the government, but just joined the army. The government that he couldn't vote for, goes to war. And he dies! Child law is separte from Adult law for good reason. Children can not be held responsible for all of there actions. As there responsiblity is also held by the parent. Therefore they have not become a 'person' yet. For 'people' to be applied to them in my arguement. Do you mean to imply that a black person and a white person should not have a equal chance at a job. If there have the same education and experience? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by "People are not equal, this much is true. People are likely never to be equal." Shouldnt we logically conclude then, if justice is a form of equality, and people cannot be equal, that there can be no justice? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Yes we can conclude that now. As there is very little justice in the world today. What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Jan 24, 2004, 11:38 am	#30 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	You have only addressed little specific cases, and said nothing of the principles behind Justice. An acceptable definition of the principles of justice is necessary before proceeding toward steps to implement justice, so, the incidences you are citing are meaningless without some big picture to orient them. I am arguing that the principle of Justice demands attention and respect for differences among and between peoples. You for some reason disagree with this. On what principles do you not believe in my argument? (In other words- this is the philosophy and religion forum, we are not talking about whether or not affirmative action is fair, we are addressing Absolutes here) "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Jan 24, 2004, 09:15 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
PeterAngelo Igneous Magma Posts: 169	I have been injured by deliberate criminals posing as public oficials in the community I live in to such an aggregious degree that I do little else but wish I could slice their throats, and all members of their families. The only reason I don't is because of the modern techniques of forensics, investigation, and all that stuff. If this was a century ago they would be dead now. Or I would be. It is not "right or wrong" that has anything to do with it. Humans use the ability to reason as a tool - just another weapon in the arsenal - in order to get what our emotions demand. When we are hurt - real or imagined - there is a chemical response that has to be dealt with. It is inexorable and cannot be stopped once it is in play. Bad feelings do not go away - look at the British Empire and the Middle East. The battle of Western banks and Eastern Banks has gone on for two thousand years and is only getting meaner. Hate grows - love dies. We are given one directive. Live long enough to procreate and then die. Anything that happens in between is meaningful only to the participants. Some people go to see "Nightmare on Elm Street" to get pointers on serial killing. Enlistment officers I have spoken to lately tell me that there is a surge in people wanting to join so they can get a "licence to kill". They WANT to go to Iraq and kill people for fun. These people are among us all the time. They don't kill for the same reason I don't - self interest. Given the chance, or the licence, they and I would do what our hearts really want to do. I actually consider myself a coward for not eating their hearts - literally. "Right and Wrong"? Get real - we live fat and happy in America because our military-industrial complex butchers third world peasants so we can steal their resources and have cheap labor. We, and Britain, cause deliberate division and hostility, arm both opponents, and sit back while they do our killing for us. That is fact. We are all serial murderers in the big picture. Most will deny this and call me a nut. DENIAL, HYPOCRICY, LIES. That is all we are - talking worms. The firtst lesson a Christian child learns is the Santa Lie. The child learns eventually that there is no magic, no Santa. They also figure out that if they keep the silent conspiracy going they can "milk" a year or two extra by lying back to their parents. The child learns that the secret conspiracy works "only" until one side fessus up. Then it's over. That is what whistle-blowers find out. Truth will get you into more trouble than anything else. Ask Christ, Ghandi, King, and my hero - Bin Laden. To make it worse - everyone knows that everyone is a liar. Everyone knows that the only reason they aren't in jail is because they haven't been caught yet. Let someone get "caught", convicted, and left with a felony conviction - they are forever branded no good. BULL It is all a lie - all of life is a lie - and we all play. Anyone who tells the truth is banished from family, friends, community, and everywhere. We can't even handle the truth about our own mortality, much less the horror and cruelty that marks most of life. Most old people, when you speak to them one on one, are glad they will be dead soon and out of this miserable existance. Old age is the final insult to a hard, lonely, frightening life. Wonder why the world is insane? I don't.

Jan 25, 2004, 07:32 am	#32 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	PeterAngelo </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I have been injured by deliberate criminals posing as public oficials in the community I live in to such an aggregious degree that I do little else but wish I could slice their throats, and all members of their families. The only reason I don't is because of the modern techniques of forensics, investigation, and all that stuff.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Your a strange fellow. You believe the police have the power to lock you up, for murdering all of these people. Yet you don't believe they have the power to catch these people! ??? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Some people go to see "Nightmare on Elm Street" to get pointers on serial killing. Enlistment officers I have spoken to lately tell me that there is a surge in people wanting to join so they can get a "licence to kill". They WANT to go to Iraq and kill people for fun. These people are among us all the time. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Yes the dieseae is in society. Because society has been allowed to errode, by those in power. The best way to maintain power, is for those (the massess) to be fighting each other and killing each other. Those in between ( middle class) to be the police force. To control the levels of killing and riots. So those on top, can enjoy the money and the power. Man Against Time Principles behind Justice: Okay, here are my priniciples:- 1) Equality. 2) You are not allow to do anything to harm another person. Physically or financially. There will be different set of goals for those with diminised responisibility. ie - Children as mention in the previous post. As you can see from my reply to the other guy. Justice is not the only thing that has to be changed. It is the whole landscape of society. But i try to keep, each disscussion. In it's relevent thread. If your interested, check out my thread on 'law ans Order'. Plus a few others. As you don't understand, why i don't see your points. On 5 years for everyone, if they sniff coke. Then i also, don't see your point. Remember, no one is forced to commit a crime. What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Jan 25, 2004, 10:34 am	#33 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	Okay, here are my priniciples:- 1) Equality. But I have already noted several times when equality is inappropriate. Is it ok to hold a high school freshman who works at McDonalds to the same standards as a Beverly Hills attorney? Is it ok to hold an 11 year old to the same standards as a 38 year old? If this was ever even tried, this would be a disaster. Its wrong in principle and wrong in practice. So, there goes the idea that Justice is equality. Actually, justice is the opposite, it implies INEQUALITY. For example, when a murderer is thrown in jail, or executed, this is INEQUALITY, because as a murderer, he has set himself apart from the others, proven he is unequal, thus, acts normally wrong to commit against a man (imprisonment, exile, execution, etc), are now suddenly appropriate and necessary. 2) You are not allow to do anything to harm another person. Physically or financially. So the Justice system then can do nothing whatsoever that will inflict pain, or cause loss of money or opportunity to make money? Ridiculous There will be different set of goals for those with diminised responisibility. ie - Children as mention in the previous post. In other words, Equality as a Principle is clearly wrong and NEEDS SPECIAL RULES, as in, IS NOT ABOUT EQUALITY. What youre saying then is, Equality is good as a buzzword and catch phrase to sound sophisticated, but god help us if we try and implement it, we will have to make rules to prevent it. "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Jan 25, 2004, 05:04 pm	#34 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	Man Against Time </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by But I have already noted several times when equality is inappropriate. Is it ok to hold a high school freshman who works at McDonalds to the same standards as a Beverly Hills attorney? Is it ok to hold an 11 year old to the same standards as a 38 year old? If this was ever even tried, this would be a disaster. Its wrong in principle and wrong in practice. So, there goes the idea that Justice is equality. Actually, justice is the opposite, it implies INEQUALITY. For example, when a murderer is thrown in jail, or executed, this is INEQUALITY, because as a murderer, he has set himself apart from the others, proven he is unequal, thus, acts normally wrong to commit against a man (imprisonment, exile, execution, etc), are now suddenly appropriate and necessary. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I have noted several times, when 'YOU' think equality is inappropriate. Do you agree with equal pay for women, if there have the same education and experience as a man? So i return the question above and this one back:- Why is it inappropriate to hold the same sentence for a high school freshman who works at McDonalds to the same standards as a Beverly Hills attorney? Yes, that is kind of my point. If some one breaks the law. They have broken the 'equality' rule. So they should be punished for it! Perhaps i just bad at expressing, what i mean. :) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by So the Justice system then can do nothing whatsoever that will inflict pain, or cause loss of money or opportunity to make money? Ridiculous<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Yes, i know it sounds ridiculous! Perhaps this is just circle logic. But as you mention. They have proven that there INEQUALITY from society. So society should punish them as a whole. By the very punishment that goes against the grain of the second priniciple. Consider the following:- Many of the reasons for violence can be traced to economic inequalities, but even more basic is the common belief in violence and coercion as means to an end. This belief is so pervasive that we're often not even aware of it. Perhaps the most important example of this is government. Belief in the necessity of coercion is the foundation of government. Belief in the necessity of coercive organization, that is, government, springs from the belief that people are incapable of voluntary cooperation, and that the only way to get them to behave in a civilized manner is to force them to do so - at the point of a gun if necessary. This leads to things such as extortion. Ultimately, it all boils down to the belief that it's OK to push people around if you're powerful enough to do it. This belief is, of course, reflected in daily life. All too many of us consider violence a means to get what we want, be it money, possessions, or dominance. There are millions of petty criminals who use violence - muggings, armed robberies, and carjackings - to get what they want. And there are literally millions of other thugs who intimidate, beat and rape those weaker than themselves - often, their wives and children - in order to (temporarily) feel the power and dominance that they crave. What makes this even more destructive than it is in and of itself is that children see this type of behavior modeled by their parents and other adults, and then imitate it when they're adults, at which point their children see it modeled, and later imitate it, continuing the chain through generation after generation. The end result is that we live in a culture of violence, in which many, many people live with violence on a day-to-day basis, and in which almost everyone stands at least some risk of being violently assaulted. Compounding all of this, psychologically, is the constant portrayal (and often glamorization) of violence in the media. The end result is that even those of us at low risk of becoming victims are often at least unconsciously preoccupied by the possibility of it, and almost no one can see any solution to violence except more violence, usually in institutional form - more cops, more prisons, more sadistic sentencing, and more barbaric prison conditions. That these things do nothing to eliminate the roots of violence is hardly surprising. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by In other words, Equality as a Principle is clearly wrong and NEEDS SPECIAL RULES, as in, IS NOT ABOUT EQUALITY. What youre saying then is, Equality is good as a buzzword and catch phrase to sound sophisticated, but god help us if we try and implement it, we will have to make rules to prevent it. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I have to fire the question. Which laws don't have special rules now? They all do, now. But based on what is best to keep the rich and the powerful. Rich and powerful. Perhaps i need to extent priniciple one. I need to think about it. Good help us now. I have the same rights as any European in Europe. But can i get those laws enforced!!! Not for love nor money..... What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Jan 25, 2004, 09:35 pm	#35 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	What did all of that have to do with the fact that Justice implies inequality? Unless, again, you want to argue that it is right to hold fundamentally different people to identical standards. Do you argue this? If not, you are admitting justice is not about equality whatsoever. "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Jan 30, 2004, 03:47 am	#36 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	The above. Is about how justice, in todays society is based upon 'fear' and 'violence'. The objective of those Elite's in power. Is to continue there hold / grip on power. This rule's all other actions that they do. Not what is best for the country or for the people. Leading to knee jerk reactions. Remember, that the government is responisle for laws and justice. Government does this directly through the threat (and often the use) of armed force. Business relies on governmental coercion to maintain an inequitable social system in which it can flourish; it often battens off contracts funded by the monies. It often influences the government to give it unfair advantages, either through subsidies or through artificial limitation of competition. As for religion, when they've had the power to do so, patriarchal religions such as christianity and islam have invariably used coercion to enforce their "moral" dictates. This is most noticeable in the activities of the so-called right to life movement, which has employed physical harassment, arson, bombings, and murder to achieve its ends. The end result of all of this institutionalized violence and coercion is a seemingly endless cycle of authoritarian attempts to control others, with attendant resistance, followed by further increases in the use of violence and coercion by the controllers. The truly sad thing about all this is that those who are the victims of violence and coercion often see no other way to resist but through their own use of violence and coercion (either directly or via the government) - and so the cycle continues, generation after generation. What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Jan 30, 2004, 06:20 am	#37 (permalink) (top)
PeterAngelo Igneous Magma Posts: 169	darwinist: The police (all police, FBI, CIA, etc) are management tools used by the ruling elite to cull the herd. They don't "arrest" judges. The first line in the first text book you open when you study law is, "The purpose of the law is to resolve disputes without violence." Of course inequality exists. But it should not be exploited or violence may occur. Of course there is deliberate crime, violent and white collar. Both are damaging and evil - but white collar touches many more lives. A Jeffrey Dahmer cannot compare to George Bush for murder or mahhem. Yet Bush is honored and gains wealth for making serial killing and war (same thing) the method of governance. If I am a strange fellow for understanding the "big picture", good. If my puny attempt to spread ideas grows and takes a thousand years to ripen - good. I am a raging success in my world and am at the same stage as Paul O'Neal. I am old and rich. Bring it on.

Jan 30, 2004, 11:05 am	#38 (permalink) (top)
Man Against Time Molten Ash Location: NJ Posts: 113	Paul O'Neil the Yankee? "Die! Fall upon your sword. Fall upon your knee. Die like your Son, nailed to his Tree. Die by my hand. Die in my heart, plucked from the Ice; forever cold."

Jan 30, 2004, 12:01 pm	#39 (permalink) (top)
FC Mellon Molten Ash Location: So Cal Posts: 51	If one finds "The quality of being just or fair" not present in their lives...then maybe one could ask herself/himself: Is it lack of 'Justice' which makes one feel things are so unjust/unfair...or is it 'lack of understanding' other'things/ones' which makes their lives so 'miserable in their own minds'. If this were a perfect world...there might still be 'some one(s)' looking for the 'injustice of perfection' which denies one to be vocal about the 'justice of their imperfections'. If one is unhappy about everything...then I can start to understand how they may feel they have been 'dealt from the bottom of the deck'...but one can always 'ask for a cut'...or 'go play with others' who might satisfy their 'frustrations of feelings' of always feeling like 'they have lost'. There is always another 'game in town'...and in this country and some others one has the 'freedom to go look for another game' when they feel they may not be dealt a fair hand....actually I find this opportunity to be 'quite just'...unlike others who bar some from even leaving their 'gaming areas'. The world is not perfect...and neither are any of US..but we can always keep trying to 'make things Just'...for ourselves and everyone who enjoys these qualities of being 'just and fair'. 8?)

Jan 30, 2004, 07:32 pm	#40 (permalink) (top)
PeterAngelo Igneous Magma Posts: 169	OK