Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

darwinist · Dec 29, 2003, 06:06 pm

introduction

This is about a real view on reality. It is meant to challenge your perceptive. This article is based on physicians and economists, it is meant to attack mathematicians line of thinking. Please try to over look this aspect and read the content.

painful nails

There's something very strange in us and in our society. I will tell it to you right away. We don't give a damn when millions of people die in horror, as long as they don't bother us. But when we see the dying black children in Africa on the television, we are touched individually. Is that right? So as group and as government we do hardly anything, then we are as hard as nails. Painful nails, for sure, for other people. But as individuals we feel compassion for the children. Isn't that strange?

Is this nonsense?

Did you know that distance is equally as dangerous as closeness? Something happens far away, but we are busy, ne? (ne? is short for isn't it?), and then we are caught by a disaster. Then comes the horror like a thief in the night, so suddenly. Isn't that recognizable? Do you know what terrorists are?

close harm and sorrow

Yuck! Look at the television, really, how much pain and sorrow there is in the world and our governments hardly care about it. Is there a difference? If you didn't see a difference, are you awake?

The road accident

When there is an accident. How many people slow do, to 'see' what
happen? How many of those people help? Did you know the more
people at the scene of an accident, the less likely that person is going
to get help.

It's already so common. Do you see the difference? Isn't this very strange? Far away and still so close in reality. Caught by disasters, taken by surprise and then suffering, why?

Here we meet the layers, we can't escape them. I will give many examples of layers, a document full of layers, layers that don't communicate much. Most people already know this. It can tear people to pieces. We have to be able to cope with it. We have to have a stability in ourselves.

Layers

in the ground

When we dig in the ground, we see layers of soil, a deposit of history, a sediment of time. A nice title for a book, maybe. And the sciences themselves, isolated, hardly knowing what the other does, and the existence of the sciences prove this view.

language layers

When you read my postings you will see that I write in layers. Maybe this is difficult for other people, but it's my dear hobby. Layers as well, for sure.

more examples

If you want it or not, there are layers everywhere. We live in dreams when we don't accept that. But in the reality others see us live. And what do they think of yourself?

just a casual example

We are so egocentric and selfish, egoistic as a group. In any case our government expresses that, but when I address you in really friendly way, you ask me, come along with me and we have a dinner somewhere. Then you give an arm and a leg, that sets. In Dutch we say we give a "rib uit ons lijf" (a rib from your own body), so a substantial part of us. Isn't that a difference?

This country is almost an enemy to fugitives and refugees.However, many people leave their doors open. People are dependent on each other. Everywhere we see the differences.

only

This is stronger. Look at the US government, super egoistic, offering compensation orders. No! No compensation orders for the JSF warplanes, difficult in international consultations, hard for other countries. It is the big i ... of a nation the group. That egoistic i... has nothing to do with our individual existence. Hey, we see layers. I send friendly emails to US people and then they are enormously friendly as well. That is the personal contact, and we are then the same. These are the layers, of course they are. What else could it be?

cheesemage · Dec 29, 2003, 11:37 pm

Whats your point?

Is it that: Everything is interconnected, a butterfly in Texas flaps its wings and thus causes a storm in Africa.

Also your point hinges on the idea that the reader is of one particular ideal set, I mean for all you know the reader could be the biggest activist and charity worker around.

dannyp · Dec 30, 2003, 05:06 am

i see in no way how this relates to attacking mathematical lines of thinking. also what do physicians have to do with any of this?

i understand the points you bring up. yeah some of the shit is ridiculous and true, i try not to live like that personally.

darwinist · Dec 30, 2003, 12:37 pm

I am exploring Philosophy. We need to drag ourself out of the middle ages thought process. You have to start somewhere. So i posted this.

Here is a further link:

http://nnw.sourceforge.net/docs.php/intro-layr

Enjoy.

dannyp · Dec 30, 2003, 04:19 pm

i think you posted the wrong link (at least it didn't work for me) i ventured to search for a working one:

http://nnw.sourceforge.net/docs.php/intro-layr/noflash

i see. and more:
http://nnw.sourceforge.net/docs.php/debate-22

ok i see what you mean by the math part.

"This url comes from physicians and economists and is meant for them and to us as mathematicians it looks like a fighting email"

"For mathematical computer programs this means too much too compute. Abstraction needed but with loss of too much environments. And the sciences know those programs are always an approximation."

now i know what kind of issues with math this has. this is about artificial intelligence and how it relates to our creation of it in computers.

anyway there isn't much debating, these people seem pretty sure about what they say.

but also nnw is an interesting project. lots of documentation. looks like a lot of work into this.

Bayou · Dec 31, 2003, 02:20 pm

I went to the links, and it seems like a collection of philisophical ideas all collected on one page.
Quite interesting to say the least.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
strange mathematicians
Now more precisely, atoms of Helium are formed and radiation speeds away from the helium. The helium we call gain, the radiation spreads and is a loss, but For some mathematicians this is is not the reality. I know that maybe all energy stays the same, but the helium is no longer connected with the radiation. And that's the point. So that group of mathematicians may deny as hard as steel that the H-bomb explosion is possible. They also deny the so clearly viewable layers in nature.

Deny the H-bomb exposion? Yes some do that. They add, call it superposition, and they hope that they have an average solution, but with alas not counting the loss. Where is that average? Isn't this peculiar? Yes, intelligent people, how is that possible?

They think that you can look only at the past. While we know we have choices, nearly always, unexpected choices. Denying the H-Bomb explosion? Perhaps we can ask those people to explain that to us.

Said in a difficult way. These mathematicians start directly with a deterministic tool. Math is deterministic. We have made it so, and we cannot escape it any longer. But we see reality in another way. Mathematics is such a tautology. You can put something in it - determinism, and then you conclude determinism. That is really a tautology.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

For some reason this paragraph reminded me of Impenitent......

darwinist · Jan 3, 2004, 05:26 pm

lol

Another interesting fact:-

Socrates's argument proceeds from the statement of a perfectly general moral principle to its application in his particular case:

* One ought never to do wrong (even in response to the evil committed by another).
* But it is always wrong to disobey the state.
* Hence, one ought never to disobey the state.

And since avoiding the sentence of death handed down by the Athenian jury would be an action in disobedience the state, it follows Socrates ought not to escape.

I thought Socrates was one of the greastest Philosophy grand fathers, till i read this. WTF, where is the idea of Justice?

Impenitent · Jan 4, 2004, 08:47 am

justice? read "Beyond Good and Evil" by Nietzsche

http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechannel/bge.htm

as far as Socrates... famous last words... "We owe a cock to Asclepios, remember to pay the debt"

do you understand?

Asclepios was the Greek god of medicine...

socrates' last words were that life is a disease

Bayou · Jan 4, 2004, 01:56 pm

.......and thats all the time we have for "Happy time with Impenitent" today, please check in next week, when Imp takes us through the magical vaacuum which is our soul.

Impenitent · Jan 4, 2004, 10:22 pm

happy time? having trouble with the "truth"?

there is no soul

Bayou · Jan 5, 2004, 10:19 am

LOL Sorry I toought you were the star of the nietzchechannel link you posted, and look I accurately predicted what you next post here would be.
Your as predictable as a tickle-me-elmo toy.

*hehehe though that last post would be an excellent commercial:

happy time? having trouble with the "truth"?
there is no soul Pepsi, cant beat the real thing

darwinist · Jan 5, 2004, 12:03 pm

Imp i read the preamble of that link. It had nothing to do with Justice. I keep it, as it look interesting. I try to keep an open mind to everything.

Bayou, Imp is yet to respond to my post. Vrs another Philosophy thread. As he can not disprove it. So i do not take he seriously any more. :)

Justice

Justice has been conceived of by the earliest of mankind and is one of the four cardinal virtues. It accompanies courage, temperance and prudence.

Justice must be in aid of the creation of equal and unbiased society. Where wrong acts are corrected in accordance to what the collected thoughts of one's community believe is fair. I would go further in saying. That in Justice is found against anti social behaviour and material theft. For maintenance of morally and socially acceptable rights.

If the government has already deemed an adult responsible enough to control their own finances, responsible enough to vote, and responsible enough to fight for their country, then certainly they should be deemed responsible enough to provide their own safety

Impenitent · Jan 5, 2004, 02:24 pm

d

try the fifth chapter...

http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechannel/bge6.htm

there is no justice and there are no rights... there is only power and everything follows from it...

what other post?

b

since you think they exist, show me a soul

Bayou · Jan 6, 2004, 07:30 am

Impenitent you are a soul to me, a translation of a computer language that formats in the path of least resistance which cries out to be understood and listened to, to be respected.
I cannot show you yourself, and how can you do the same for yourself if you do not beleive in your own existance, other then a brain in a jar?

Impenitent · Jan 6, 2004, 09:31 am

b

there is no empirical evidence for a soul

your unfounded opinion and interpretation of a soul is not proof

Bayou · Jan 6, 2004, 12:23 pm

And their is no empirical evidence to me that you exist, yet I beleive you still do.
Their is no empirical evidence life should exist, but it does.
My interpretations of your actions on these boards may be off, perhaps that is my spirit obscuring yours.
But your all consuming beleif in a need for absolute proof of everything only serves your Nihilistic beleifs, not the subject in question.
Why should anyone prove to you that you have a soul?
Is that or should that be within anyones power?
If you are asking, does that mean you have the power to deny us our own soul?
I think not.

Impenitent · Jan 7, 2004, 12:56 am

your belief is unfounded

absolute proof is needed for knowledge

do not claim that something exists when you have no evidence for it... that is nothing more than chasing shadows and make believe...

Bayou · Jan 7, 2004, 01:19 am

Yet your answer reafirms my beleif........

white rice · Jan 7, 2004, 08:54 am

Interesting topic darwinist.

A friend once told me that reality is you, the other, and what actually happens; the power of three. It's an elegant and profound definition. You only know world events from what the media tells you or what your acquantainces tell you on the phone, net or mail. Your choice to make that real is to whether believe it or not. It is still your choice even if you were somehow affected from that event directly (though it is harder to ignore its consequences).

It boils down to choice or the appearance of it.

There's an experiment where you had two dogs. One was locked in a cage while being shocked with no room to avoid it. Another was shocked but could move around to prevent the shocks. When the second dog's cage was opened, he was given a shock again. He rightfully exited the cage. The first dog's cage was opened as well. When given the shocks, he stood in his place even though freedom was right in front of him.

You see the suffering of Africa, and even if you mail some donations, you won't see any great dividends from it. The impact of your choice becomes minimized and you might feel a little helpless. This is all psychology. Helplessess is a very large factor in stress.

Deindividualization is a very interesting thing to study. Protestors who looked at the riot police face to face stood a greater chance of being unscathed from their batons than the majority who were fleeing and had their backs turned.

On a different matter, if governments are selfish men on a macro scale and companies are steadily growing to become highly efficient money making machines, it's safe to say that machines will dominate man.

darwinist · Jan 8, 2004, 10:25 am

IMP:- The thread where i kicked your butt was:-

Nihilism

Also you can not prove a theory, you can only dis-prove a theory. So your at an impasse.

White rice,

Glad you like it. Watch this space for more interesting stuff. :)

Dec 29, 2003, 06:06 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	introduction This is about a real view on reality. It is meant to challenge your perceptive. This article is based on physicians and economists, it is meant to attack mathematicians line of thinking. Please try to over look this aspect and read the content. painful nails There's something very strange in us and in our society. I will tell it to you right away. We don't give a damn when millions of people die in horror, as long as they don't bother us. But when we see the dying black children in Africa on the television, we are touched individually. Is that right? So as group and as government we do hardly anything, then we are as hard as nails. Painful nails, for sure, for other people. But as individuals we feel compassion for the children. Isn't that strange? Is this nonsense? Did you know that distance is equally as dangerous as closeness? Something happens far away, but we are busy, ne? (ne? is short for isn't it?), and then we are caught by a disaster. Then comes the horror like a thief in the night, so suddenly. Isn't that recognizable? Do you know what terrorists are? close harm and sorrow Yuck! Look at the television, really, how much pain and sorrow there is in the world and our governments hardly care about it. Is there a difference? If you didn't see a difference, are you awake? The road accident When there is an accident. How many people slow do, to 'see' what happen? How many of those people help? Did you know the more people at the scene of an accident, the less likely that person is going to get help. It's already so common. Do you see the difference? Isn't this very strange? Far away and still so close in reality. Caught by disasters, taken by surprise and then suffering, why? Here we meet the layers, we can't escape them. I will give many examples of layers, a document full of layers, layers that don't communicate much. Most people already know this. It can tear people to pieces. We have to be able to cope with it. We have to have a stability in ourselves. Layers in the ground When we dig in the ground, we see layers of soil, a deposit of history, a sediment of time. A nice title for a book, maybe. And the sciences themselves, isolated, hardly knowing what the other does, and the existence of the sciences prove this view. language layers When you read my postings you will see that I write in layers. Maybe this is difficult for other people, but it's my dear hobby. Layers as well, for sure. more examples If you want it or not, there are layers everywhere. We live in dreams when we don't accept that. But in the reality others see us live. And what do they think of yourself? just a casual example We are so egocentric and selfish, egoistic as a group. In any case our government expresses that, but when I address you in really friendly way, you ask me, come along with me and we have a dinner somewhere. Then you give an arm and a leg, that sets. In Dutch we say we give a "rib uit ons lijf" (a rib from your own body), so a substantial part of us. Isn't that a difference? This country is almost an enemy to fugitives and refugees.However, many people leave their doors open. People are dependent on each other. Everywhere we see the differences. only This is stronger. Look at the US government, super egoistic, offering compensation orders. No! No compensation orders for the JSF warplanes, difficult in international consultations, hard for other countries. It is the big i ... of a nation the group. That egoistic i... has nothing to do with our individual existence. Hey, we see layers. I send friendly emails to US people and then they are enormously friendly as well. That is the personal contact, and we are then the same. These are the layers, of course they are. What else could it be? What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Dec 30, 2003, 05:06 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
dannyp projects himself Posts: 130	i see in no way how this relates to attacking mathematical lines of thinking. also what do physicians have to do with any of this? i understand the points you bring up. yeah some of the shit is ridiculous and true, i try not to live like that personally. projectdp.com :: thinktankforums.com

Dec 30, 2003, 12:37 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	I am exploring Philosophy. We need to drag ourself out of the middle ages thought process. You have to start somewhere. So i posted this. Here is a further link: http://nnw.sourceforge.net/docs.php/intro-layr Enjoy. What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Dec 30, 2003, 04:19 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
dannyp projects himself Posts: 130	i think you posted the wrong link (at least it didn't work for me) i ventured to search for a working one: http://nnw.sourceforge.net/docs.php/intro-layr/noflash i see. and more: http://nnw.sourceforge.net/docs.php/debate-22 ok i see what you mean by the math part. "This url comes from physicians and economists and is meant for them and to us as mathematicians it looks like a fighting email" "For mathematical computer programs this means too much too compute. Abstraction needed but with loss of too much environments. And the sciences know those programs are always an approximation." now i know what kind of issues with math this has. this is about artificial intelligence and how it relates to our creation of it in computers. anyway there isn't much debating, these people seem pretty sure about what they say. but also nnw is an interesting project. lots of documentation. looks like a lot of work into this. projectdp.com :: thinktankforums.com

Dec 31, 2003, 02:20 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Bayou Igneous Magma Location: Calgary Alberta Canada Posts: 154	I went to the links, and it seems like a collection of philisophical ideas all collected on one page. Quite interesting to say the least. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by strange mathematicians Now more precisely, atoms of Helium are formed and radiation speeds away from the helium. The helium we call gain, the radiation spreads and is a loss, but For some mathematicians this is is not the reality. I know that maybe all energy stays the same, but the helium is no longer connected with the radiation. And that's the point. So that group of mathematicians may deny as hard as steel that the H-bomb explosion is possible. They also deny the so clearly viewable layers in nature. Deny the H-bomb exposion? Yes some do that. They add, call it superposition, and they hope that they have an average solution, but with alas not counting the loss. Where is that average? Isn't this peculiar? Yes, intelligent people, how is that possible? They think that you can look only at the past. While we know we have choices, nearly always, unexpected choices. Denying the H-Bomb explosion? Perhaps we can ask those people to explain that to us. Said in a difficult way. These mathematicians start directly with a deterministic tool. Math is deterministic. We have made it so, and we cannot escape it any longer. But we see reality in another way. Mathematics is such a tautology. You can put something in it - determinism, and then you conclude determinism. That is really a tautology.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> For some reason this paragraph reminded me of Impenitent...... <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Impact'><span style='color:green'>Vote NDP "The independence of art for the revolution. "The revolution for the complete liberation of art!"</span></span></span>

Dec 29, 2003, 11:37 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
cheesemage Molten Ash Posts: 57	Whats your point? Is it that: Everything is interconnected, a butterfly in Texas flaps its wings and thus causes a storm in Africa. Also your point hinges on the idea that the reader is of one particular ideal set, I mean for all you know the reader could be the biggest activist and charity worker around.

Jan 3, 2004, 05:26 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	lol Another interesting fact:- Socrates's argument proceeds from the statement of a perfectly general moral principle to its application in his particular case: * One ought never to do wrong (even in response to the evil committed by another). * But it is always wrong to disobey the state. * Hence, one ought never to disobey the state. And since avoiding the sentence of death handed down by the Athenian jury would be an action in disobedience the state, it follows Socrates ought not to escape. I thought Socrates was one of the greastest Philosophy grand fathers, till i read this. WTF, where is the idea of Justice? What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Jan 4, 2004, 08:47 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	justice? read "Beyond Good and Evil" by Nietzsche http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechannel/bge.htm as far as Socrates... famous last words... "We owe a cock to Asclepios, remember to pay the debt" do you understand? Asclepios was the Greek god of medicine... socrates' last words were that life is a disease "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Jan 4, 2004, 01:56 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Bayou Igneous Magma Location: Calgary Alberta Canada Posts: 154	.......and thats all the time we have for "Happy time with Impenitent" today, please check in next week, when Imp takes us through the magical vaacuum which is our soul. <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Impact'><span style='color:green'>Vote NDP "The independence of art for the revolution. "The revolution for the complete liberation of art!"</span></span></span>

Jan 4, 2004, 10:22 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	happy time? having trouble with the "truth"? there is no soul "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Jan 5, 2004, 10:19 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Bayou Igneous Magma Location: Calgary Alberta Canada Posts: 154	LOL Sorry I toought you were the star of the nietzchechannel link you posted, and look I accurately predicted what you next post here would be. Your as predictable as a tickle-me-elmo toy. hehehe though that last post would be an excellent commercial: happy time?* having trouble with the "truth"? there is no soul Pepsi, cant beat the real thing <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Impact'><span style='color:green'>Vote NDP "The independence of art for the revolution. "The revolution for the complete liberation of art!"</span></span></span>

Jan 5, 2004, 12:03 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	Imp i read the preamble of that link. It had nothing to do with Justice. I keep it, as it look interesting. I try to keep an open mind to everything. Bayou, Imp is yet to respond to my post. Vrs another Philosophy thread. As he can not disprove it. So i do not take he seriously any more. :) Justice Justice has been conceived of by the earliest of mankind and is one of the four cardinal virtues. It accompanies courage, temperance and prudence. Justice must be in aid of the creation of equal and unbiased society. Where wrong acts are corrected in accordance to what the collected thoughts of one's community believe is fair. I would go further in saying. That in Justice is found against anti social behaviour and material theft. For maintenance of morally and socially acceptable rights. If the government has already deemed an adult responsible enough to control their own finances, responsible enough to vote, and responsible enough to fight for their country, then certainly they should be deemed responsible enough to provide their own safety What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.

Jan 5, 2004, 02:24 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	d try the fifth chapter... http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechannel/bge6.htm there is no justice and there are no rights... there is only power and everything follows from it... what other post? b since you think they exist, show me a soul "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Jan 6, 2004, 07:30 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
Bayou Igneous Magma Location: Calgary Alberta Canada Posts: 154	Impenitent you are a soul to me, a translation of a computer language that formats in the path of least resistance which cries out to be understood and listened to, to be respected. I cannot show you yourself, and how can you do the same for yourself if you do not beleive in your own existance, other then a brain in a jar? <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Impact'><span style='color:green'>Vote NDP "The independence of art for the revolution. "The revolution for the complete liberation of art!"</span></span></span>

Jan 6, 2004, 09:31 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	b there is no empirical evidence for a soul your unfounded opinion and interpretation of a soul is not proof "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Jan 6, 2004, 12:23 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Bayou Igneous Magma Location: Calgary Alberta Canada Posts: 154	And their is no empirical evidence to me that you exist, yet I beleive you still do. Their is no empirical evidence life should exist, but it does. My interpretations of your actions on these boards may be off, perhaps that is my spirit obscuring yours. But your all consuming beleif in a need for absolute proof of everything only serves your Nihilistic beleifs, not the subject in question. Why should anyone prove to you that you have a soul? Is that or should that be within anyones power? If you are asking, does that mean you have the power to deny us our own soul? I think not. <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Impact'><span style='color:green'>Vote NDP "The independence of art for the revolution. "The revolution for the complete liberation of art!"</span></span></span>

Jan 7, 2004, 12:56 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	your belief is unfounded absolute proof is needed for knowledge do not claim that something exists when you have no evidence for it... that is nothing more than chasing shadows and make believe... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Jan 7, 2004, 01:19 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
Bayou Igneous Magma Location: Calgary Alberta Canada Posts: 154	Yet your answer reafirms my beleif........ <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Impact'><span style='color:green'>Vote NDP "The independence of art for the revolution. "The revolution for the complete liberation of art!"</span></span></span>

Jan 7, 2004, 08:54 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
white rice Igneous Magma Posts: 372	Interesting topic darwinist. A friend once told me that reality is you, the other, and what actually happens; the power of three. It's an elegant and profound definition. You only know world events from what the media tells you or what your acquantainces tell you on the phone, net or mail. Your choice to make that real is to whether believe it or not. It is still your choice even if you were somehow affected from that event directly (though it is harder to ignore its consequences). It boils down to choice or the appearance of it. There's an experiment where you had two dogs. One was locked in a cage while being shocked with no room to avoid it. Another was shocked but could move around to prevent the shocks. When the second dog's cage was opened, he was given a shock again. He rightfully exited the cage. The first dog's cage was opened as well. When given the shocks, he stood in his place even though freedom was right in front of him. You see the suffering of Africa, and even if you mail some donations, you won't see any great dividends from it. The impact of your choice becomes minimized and you might feel a little helpless. This is all psychology. Helplessess is a very large factor in stress. Deindividualization is a very interesting thing to study. Protestors who looked at the riot police face to face stood a greater chance of being unscathed from their batons than the majority who were fleeing and had their backs turned. On a different matter, if governments are selfish men on a macro scale and companies are steadily growing to become highly efficient money making machines, it's safe to say that machines will dominate man. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Jan 8, 2004, 10:25 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	IMP:- The thread where i kicked your butt was:- Nihilism Also you can not prove a theory, you can only dis-prove a theory. So your at an impasse. White rice, Glad you like it. Watch this space for more interesting stuff. :) What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.