Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

shunyadragon · Mar 2, 2004, 07:41 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
I don't think of myself as an expert on Buddhism, but 3-4 years of studying it, and 2 years of being a buddhist (stopped because I couldn't get buddhism and revolution to be compatible...) did give me some knowledge.

And Buddhism does not reject the will to try, just the attatchment to that trying. Don't hold onto it, or anything, because it is impermanent, and that attatchment leads to suffering.

<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This is a good rule to follow regardless of your faith. It is not in our pursuit of goals that huts us, it's our "we must have this or all is lost" feeling. That is all this is meant to prevent. Very healthy.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

The concept of 'We must have this or all is lost' is the basic concept that Christians use to justify Christianity. In Buddhism this is meaningless.

thrillofitall · Mar 2, 2004, 02:33 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Autolykos,)
I say that Buddhism is not really a religion. After all, Buddhism, in its classical sense, does not require the worship of any deities (not even Buddha himself, although many later sects adopted worship of him). It is really just a systematic philosophy.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

religion definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion

re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

buddhism is practicing the beliefs and values based around the teachings of the buddha. it is intirely a religion.. it just might not fit your own definition.

tusaki · Mar 2, 2004, 03:14 pm

Except that, Buddha is you. Or, something you yourself can become.

whl626 · Mar 4, 2004, 09:58 pm

stauchest religion supporters are always turning out to be extremists in the end. Be it Buddaism or whatever. Especially when the religion is associated with politics.

shunyadragon · Mar 14, 2004, 02:19 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (whl626,)
stauchest religion supporters are always turning out to be extremists in the end. Be it Buddaism or whatever. Especially when the religion is associated with politics.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Buddhism are rarely if at all associated with extremism. The Buddhism of Tibet is probably one of the most extreme forms of Buddhism and really not capable of effective political action.

In Japan the Shinto took control and formed the religious foundation for Japanese manifest destiny and desaster.

Most other nations that had Buddhist governments lost out to secular political governments in the modern world, because activism in Buddhism is rarely aggressive enough to go much beyond pacifist activism.

dotcoma · Mar 14, 2004, 12:42 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (nature of reality,)

If you stop wanting things, then you'll no longer suffer?

Thats is the most retarded thing i have ever heard in my life. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Dude, that's deep...

shunyadragon · Mar 14, 2004, 05:59 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (nature of reality,)

If you stop wanting things, then you'll no longer suffer?

Thats is the most retarded thing i have ever heard in my life. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Dude, that's deep...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Buddhism does not believe that you should stop wanting things. It teaches against the extremes of grasping, clinging and materialism.

tusaki · Mar 14, 2004, 06:45 pm

I think roxdog was being sarcastic. But your reply to n.o.r.'s-post is valid.

dotcoma · Mar 15, 2004, 03:00 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sandy,)
I think all religion is just an excuse for not thinking rathionally!<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

What?

Mar 25, 2004, 09:38 pm

I agree. I have studied the world's major, and some minor, religions. Buddism makes the least sense of any of them. Islam is the most severe and best crowd control religion BTW. Only when Zen, not really a religion, is added to Buddism does it start making any sense. I can tell by your original post that Zen is not your bag either.
To the guy that thinks communism works because a small commune works, your stretching the point. A commune can and does work when ALL the members agree to the terms of their community. It is impossible to expect the general populace to accept this type of social arrangement since communism requires all members to live contrary to human nature. Living, primarily, for ones own benefit.

shunyadragon · Mar 25, 2004, 11:04 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dave654,)
I agree. I have studied the world's major, and some minor, religions. Buddism makes the least sense of any of them. Islam is the most severe and best crowd control religion BTW. Only when Zen, not really a religion, is added to Buddism does it start making any sense. I can tell by your original post that Zen is not your bag either.
To the guy that thinks communism works because a small commune works, your stretching the point. A commune can and does work when ALL the members agree to the terms of their community. It is impossible to expect the general populace to accept this type of social arrangement since communism requires all members to live contrary to human nature. Living, primarily, for ones own benefit.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I agree, communism was never workable in a pure form because it is idealistic.

When you say Buddhism doesn't make sense, from what point of view? Since it is a religion it is common for example that Buddhism would not make sense from a Christian point of view. From the buddhist point of view Christianity, Judism and Islam don't make sense because they are always waging wars in the name of religion.

Mar 25, 2004, 11:26 pm

I'm not a christian so I don't have any idealogical baggage to deal with. Actually I consider Zen the simplest expression of spirituality. It's not a religeon, not really a philosophy, it's a way of being. When I say Buddism doesn't make sense, I mean it provides an inaccurate representation of life, and does a poor job of explaining our surroundings. All religions fail in this regard mainly because they were generated prior to much of the knowledge man possesses today.
Budha generated his tennets after observing his culture and surroundings along with meditation. He concludes all life is suffering after seeing much suffering in his culture. It's been a long time since I read all his tennets. They do make sense when viewed in the context of Sidharta's and there is much wisdom in much of what he says. I don't want to discount everything he says, nor insult practicioners of his religion but it is not a workable philosophy for explaining our world, nor is is a workable code for living. None of the religions are.

toys · Mar 26, 2004, 04:02 am

No one religion may be the key, but, with all of the religions, combined together, the bigger picture can begin to become clear. There's some truth to every myth, otherwise, both imagination and reality would be a lie. It's not about what makes sense of who's right, but the modicum of truth found between them. If it were possible for a documentary of the entire world, span, and people, then, we might finally claim that truth.

shunyadragon · Mar 26, 2004, 04:42 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (toys,)
No one religion may be the key, but, with all of the religions, combined together, the bigger picture can begin to become clear. There's some truth to every myth, otherwise, both imagination and reality would be a lie. It's not about what makes sense of who's right, but the modicum of truth found between them. If it were possible for a documentary of the entire world, span, and people, then, we might finally claim that truth.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

The Baha'i Faith comes closest to this description, but it does not combine religions or pick and chose among religions to come up with a new religion. The Baha'i Faith considers all the religions as part of humanity's spiritual education.

shunyadragon · Mar 26, 2004, 05:11 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dave654,)
I'm not a christian so I don't have any idealogical baggage to deal with. Actually I consider Zen the simplest expression of spirituality. It's not a religeon, not really a philosophy, it's a way of being. When I say Buddism doesn't make sense, I mean it provides an inaccurate representation of life, and does a poor job of explaining our surroundings. All religions fail in this regard mainly because they were generated prior to much of the knowledge man possesses today.
Budha generated his tennets after observing his culture and surroundings along with meditation. He concludes all life is suffering after seeing much suffering in his culture. It's been a long time since I read all his tennets. They do make sense when viewed in the context of Sidharta's and there is much wisdom in much of what he says. I don't want to discount everything he says, nor insult practicioners of his religion but it is not a workable philosophy for explaining our world, nor is is a workable code for living. None of the religions are.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I have been a student of Buddhism for more than thirty years and I don't understand how you seperate Zen from Buddhism and call it a philosophy and not a religion.

I don't view Buddhism as a problem with the explaination of life and our surroundings unless you cling to old doctrines that were not likely a part of Buddha's original teachings. To some extent Zen does this.

The concept of suffering is an interesting one that I feel is often misunderstood. There is natural suffering that is part of the river of life and then there is suffering caused by human weaknesses like clinging, materialism and excessive desire of comfort. Buddhism endorses the middle way as a way to seek moderation and harmony in life. Notions of ascetisim and extremes of diet and meditation practices are not productive in seeking the middle way and likely not compatable with Buddha's original teachings.

I studied Zen in the US while studying Aikido, Kendo and Iaido (sp?). I found contradictions in Zen not completely compatable with Buddhha's original teachings. The overemphasis on a specific meditative practice called Zazen, the development of some narrow doctrinal beliefs over time and also an underlying belief in Zen being the only way. I most definitely still consider Zen a religion and very much a Buddhist religion.

Mar 26, 2004, 05:29 pm

I too discovered Zen through the Martial Arts. Zen developed seperately from Budhism and was adopted by Some Budhist Monks forming their sect of Zen Budhism. There are still Budhist who do not practice Zen. I don't consider Zen a religion because it does not teach of a creator, the creation of the Universe or outlay tenets for living, (social engineering.) Practicing Zen is simply developing a way of being. Zen concepts have their roots on early Brahman period Hinduism. The understanding that divinity is in us, the Atman, which can connect with the divinity without, the Brahman, is the underpining of Zen philosophy. A practicioner of any or no, organized religion can practice Zen.
Zazen, is only one branch of Zen, meditating on Zen Kohens is one way to break through the logic/cognitive barrier, but certainly not the most efficient way. Personnaly, I did not follow this route. I took the more difficult, and longer root of meditaion only.
I'm not here to "bag" on anyones belief system so you do what you feel is right but I would suggest you not rely solely on one man's teachings, and certainly not of one religions doctrine.

shunyadragon · Mar 26, 2004, 09:24 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dave654,)
I too discovered Zen through the Martial Arts. Zen developed seperately from Budhism and was adopted by Some Budhist Monks forming their sect of Zen Budhism. There are still Budhist who do not practice Zen. I don't consider Zen a religion because it does not teach of a creator, the creation of the Universe or outlay tenets for living, (social engineering.) Practicing Zen is simply developing a way of being. Zen concepts have their roots on early Brahman period Hinduism. The understanding that divinity is in us, the Atman, which can connect with the divinity without, the Brahman, is the underpining of Zen philosophy. A practicioner of any or no, organized religion can practice Zen.
Zazen, is only one branch of Zen, meditating on Zen Kohens is one way to break through the logic/cognitive barrier, but certainly not the most efficient way. Personnaly, I did not follow this route. I took the more difficult, and longer root of meditaion only.
I'm not here to "bag" on anyones belief system so you do what you feel is right but I would suggest you not rely solely on one man's teachings, and certainly not of one religions doctrine.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This is one point where we disagree. I do not consider Zen atheist or to have evolved seperately from Buddhism. It is a direct descendent of Chinese Buddhism. The Gods of Chinese Buddhism have comparable names in Japanese Zen. The meditative practices and the Kohens come from Chinese equivalents. Japanese Zen also blends with Shinto in Japan and so do the concepts of God or Gods, the native primal religion with many Gods and divinities.

Buddhism and Zen allows some diversity of belief. Some practiioneers of Chinese Buddhism and Japanese Zen have assumed an athiestic belief, but this is not the basic belief of Buddhism. Buddhism does offer 'salvation', which varies some with different schools. Nirvana is described differently in different schools. but it remains a goal of all schools of Buddhism. Salvation is a distinct characteristic of religions.

Actually all Buddhist schools believe in a ultimate divine enlightened source that is one with creation itself, but unknown and undefined from the human perspective. This definitely would not be the anthropomorphic 'clock maker' God from the Judeo/Christian/Islamic perspective, but it is in harmony with the Baha'i viewpoint of God.

Mar 27, 2004, 07:05 pm

Hey Sunny

I'm pretty sure Zen developed on its own seprate from any religion. Sure you can find deities and commonalities with Zen practicioners belonging to a Chinese, Japanese, Indian, or any other religion. I only picked up a little Baha'i at the very end of my studies of world theology so I'm not very familiar with it and can't comment. I don't want to argue about religion with you since you seem to be devout and sincere in your beliefs. I've long since reached my conclusions and assumed responsibility for my own spiritual life.

shunyadragon · Mar 27, 2004, 08:28 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dave654,)
Hey Sunny

I'm pretty sure Zen developed on its own seprate from any religion. Sure you can find deities and commonalities with Zen practicioners belonging to a Chinese, Japanese, Indian, or any other religion. I only picked up a little Baha'i at the very end of my studies of world theology so I'm not very familiar with it and can't comment. I don't want to argue about religion with you since you seem to be devout and sincere in your beliefs. I've long since reached my conclusions and assumed responsibility for my own spiritual life.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

The obviousness of different points of view and argueing I don't think are issues here. This is a debate. The devoteness and sincerity of my beliefs is only a side issue in the debate. It would not effect my beliefs one way or another if Zen was a seperate religion or Buddhist, but . . .

Most practioneers of Zen and the Zen scholars of Japan consider Zen to be Buddhist and have Buddhist origins.

Mar 27, 2004, 11:23 pm

Okay, I'll have to do a little more digging but I'll take your word for it since you seem to be more intimately involved in the topic than I.
Have you been in any Buhdist Temples in Asia? Have you been involved in ceremonies where they do much chanting? If so, is it as cool as I imagine it is? I bet the vibrations are very relaxing.

Mar 2, 2004, 07:41 am	#81 (permalink) (top)
shunyadragon Hot Lava Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 940	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) I don't think of myself as an expert on Buddhism, but 3-4 years of studying it, and 2 years of being a buddhist (stopped because I couldn't get buddhism and revolution to be compatible...) did give me some knowledge. And Buddhism does not reject the will to try, just the attatchment to that trying. Don't hold onto it, or anything, because it is impermanent, and that attatchment leads to suffering. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This is a good rule to follow regardless of your faith. It is not in our pursuit of goals that huts us, it's our "we must have this or all is lost" feeling. That is all this is meant to prevent. Very healthy.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The concept of 'We must have this or all is lost' is the basic concept that Christians use to justify Christianity. In Buddhism this is meaningless. The empty cup contains the most Frank A Doonan Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk www.shunyadragon.com I do not know, therefore I think . . .

Mar 2, 2004, 02:33 pm	#82 (permalink) (top)
thrillofitall Sedimentary Rock Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 20	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Autolykos,) I say that Buddhism is not really a religion. After all, Buddhism, in its classical sense, does not require the worship of any deities (not even Buddha himself, although many later sects adopted worship of him). It is really just a systematic philosophy.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> religion definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn) n. 1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. 2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. buddhism is practicing the beliefs and values based around the teachings of the buddha. it is intirely a religion.. it just might not fit your own definition.

Mar 2, 2004, 03:14 pm	#83 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	Except that, Buddha is you. Or, something you yourself can become. Hope & Dream

Mar 4, 2004, 09:58 pm	#84 (permalink) (top)
whl626 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 11	stauchest religion supporters are always turning out to be extremists in the end. Be it Buddaism or whatever. Especially when the religion is associated with politics. Learn English every day http://englishdaily626.com http://foreseefuture.com - Foresee your future

Mar 14, 2004, 02:19 am	#85 (permalink) (top)
shunyadragon Hot Lava Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 940	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (whl626,) stauchest religion supporters are always turning out to be extremists in the end. Be it Buddaism or whatever. Especially when the religion is associated with politics.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Buddhism are rarely if at all associated with extremism. The Buddhism of Tibet is probably one of the most extreme forms of Buddhism and really not capable of effective political action. In Japan the Shinto took control and formed the religious foundation for Japanese manifest destiny and desaster. Most other nations that had Buddhist governments lost out to secular political governments in the modern world, because activism in Buddhism is rarely aggressive enough to go much beyond pacifist activism. The empty cup contains the most Frank A Doonan Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk www.shunyadragon.com I do not know, therefore I think . . .

Mar 14, 2004, 12:42 pm	#86 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (nature of reality,) If you stop wanting things, then you'll no longer suffer? Thats is the most retarded thing i have ever heard in my life. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Dude, that's deep...

Mar 14, 2004, 05:59 pm	#87 (permalink) (top)
shunyadragon Hot Lava Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 940	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (nature of reality,) If you stop wanting things, then you'll no longer suffer? Thats is the most retarded thing i have ever heard in my life. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Dude, that's deep...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Buddhism does not believe that you should stop wanting things. It teaches against the extremes of grasping, clinging and materialism. The empty cup contains the most Frank A Doonan Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk www.shunyadragon.com I do not know, therefore I think . . .

Mar 14, 2004, 06:45 pm	#88 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	I think roxdog was being sarcastic. But your reply to n.o.r.'s-post is valid. Hope & Dream

Mar 15, 2004, 03:00 pm	#89 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sandy,) I think all religion is just an excuse for not thinking rathionally!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> What?

Mar 25, 2004, 09:38 pm	#90 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	I agree. I have studied the world's major, and some minor, religions. Buddism makes the least sense of any of them. Islam is the most severe and best crowd control religion BTW. Only when Zen, not really a religion, is added to Buddism does it start making any sense. I can tell by your original post that Zen is not your bag either. To the guy that thinks communism works because a small commune works, your stretching the point. A commune can and does work when ALL the members agree to the terms of their community. It is impossible to expect the general populace to accept this type of social arrangement since communism requires all members to live contrary to human nature. Living, primarily, for ones own benefit.

Mar 25, 2004, 11:04 pm	#91 (permalink) (top)
shunyadragon Hot Lava Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 940	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dave654,) I agree. I have studied the world's major, and some minor, religions. Buddism makes the least sense of any of them. Islam is the most severe and best crowd control religion BTW. Only when Zen, not really a religion, is added to Buddism does it start making any sense. I can tell by your original post that Zen is not your bag either. To the guy that thinks communism works because a small commune works, your stretching the point. A commune can and does work when ALL the members agree to the terms of their community. It is impossible to expect the general populace to accept this type of social arrangement since communism requires all members to live contrary to human nature. Living, primarily, for ones own benefit.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I agree, communism was never workable in a pure form because it is idealistic. When you say Buddhism doesn't make sense, from what point of view? Since it is a religion it is common for example that Buddhism would not make sense from a Christian point of view. From the buddhist point of view Christianity, Judism and Islam don't make sense because they are always waging wars in the name of religion. The empty cup contains the most Frank A Doonan Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk www.shunyadragon.com I do not know, therefore I think . . .

Mar 25, 2004, 11:26 pm	#92 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	I'm not a christian so I don't have any idealogical baggage to deal with. Actually I consider Zen the simplest expression of spirituality. It's not a religeon, not really a philosophy, it's a way of being. When I say Buddism doesn't make sense, I mean it provides an inaccurate representation of life, and does a poor job of explaining our surroundings. All religions fail in this regard mainly because they were generated prior to much of the knowledge man possesses today. Budha generated his tennets after observing his culture and surroundings along with meditation. He concludes all life is suffering after seeing much suffering in his culture. It's been a long time since I read all his tennets. They do make sense when viewed in the context of Sidharta's and there is much wisdom in much of what he says. I don't want to discount everything he says, nor insult practicioners of his religion but it is not a workable philosophy for explaining our world, nor is is a workable code for living. None of the religions are.

Mar 26, 2004, 04:02 am	#93 (permalink) (top)
toys Sedimentary Rock Location: aqui` Posts: 14	No one religion may be the key, but, with all of the religions, combined together, the bigger picture can begin to become clear. There's some truth to every myth, otherwise, both imagination and reality would be a lie. It's not about what makes sense of who's right, but the modicum of truth found between them. If it were possible for a documentary of the entire world, span, and people, then, we might finally claim that truth. TFM

Mar 26, 2004, 04:42 am	#94 (permalink) (top)
shunyadragon Hot Lava Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 940	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (toys,) No one religion may be the key, but, with all of the religions, combined together, the bigger picture can begin to become clear. There's some truth to every myth, otherwise, both imagination and reality would be a lie. It's not about what makes sense of who's right, but the modicum of truth found between them. If it were possible for a documentary of the entire world, span, and people, then, we might finally claim that truth.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The Baha'i Faith comes closest to this description, but it does not combine religions or pick and chose among religions to come up with a new religion. The Baha'i Faith considers all the religions as part of humanity's spiritual education. The empty cup contains the most Frank A Doonan Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk www.shunyadragon.com I do not know, therefore I think . . .

Mar 26, 2004, 05:11 am	#95 (permalink) (top)
shunyadragon Hot Lava Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 940	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dave654,) I'm not a christian so I don't have any idealogical baggage to deal with. Actually I consider Zen the simplest expression of spirituality. It's not a religeon, not really a philosophy, it's a way of being. When I say Buddism doesn't make sense, I mean it provides an inaccurate representation of life, and does a poor job of explaining our surroundings. All religions fail in this regard mainly because they were generated prior to much of the knowledge man possesses today. Budha generated his tennets after observing his culture and surroundings along with meditation. He concludes all life is suffering after seeing much suffering in his culture. It's been a long time since I read all his tennets. They do make sense when viewed in the context of Sidharta's and there is much wisdom in much of what he says. I don't want to discount everything he says, nor insult practicioners of his religion but it is not a workable philosophy for explaining our world, nor is is a workable code for living. None of the religions are.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I have been a student of Buddhism for more than thirty years and I don't understand how you seperate Zen from Buddhism and call it a philosophy and not a religion. I don't view Buddhism as a problem with the explaination of life and our surroundings unless you cling to old doctrines that were not likely a part of Buddha's original teachings. To some extent Zen does this. The concept of suffering is an interesting one that I feel is often misunderstood. There is natural suffering that is part of the river of life and then there is suffering caused by human weaknesses like clinging, materialism and excessive desire of comfort. Buddhism endorses the middle way as a way to seek moderation and harmony in life. Notions of ascetisim and extremes of diet and meditation practices are not productive in seeking the middle way and likely not compatable with Buddha's original teachings. I studied Zen in the US while studying Aikido, Kendo and Iaido (sp?). I found contradictions in Zen not completely compatable with Buddhha's original teachings. The overemphasis on a specific meditative practice called Zazen, the development of some narrow doctrinal beliefs over time and also an underlying belief in Zen being the only way. I most definitely still consider Zen a religion and very much a Buddhist religion. The empty cup contains the most Frank A Doonan Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk www.shunyadragon.com I do not know, therefore I think . . .

Mar 26, 2004, 05:29 pm	#96 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	I too discovered Zen through the Martial Arts. Zen developed seperately from Budhism and was adopted by Some Budhist Monks forming their sect of Zen Budhism. There are still Budhist who do not practice Zen. I don't consider Zen a religion because it does not teach of a creator, the creation of the Universe or outlay tenets for living, (social engineering.) Practicing Zen is simply developing a way of being. Zen concepts have their roots on early Brahman period Hinduism. The understanding that divinity is in us, the Atman, which can connect with the divinity without, the Brahman, is the underpining of Zen philosophy. A practicioner of any or no, organized religion can practice Zen. Zazen, is only one branch of Zen, meditating on Zen Kohens is one way to break through the logic/cognitive barrier, but certainly not the most efficient way. Personnaly, I did not follow this route. I took the more difficult, and longer root of meditaion only. I'm not here to "bag" on anyones belief system so you do what you feel is right but I would suggest you not rely solely on one man's teachings, and certainly not of one religions doctrine.

Mar 26, 2004, 09:24 pm	#97 (permalink) (top)
shunyadragon Hot Lava Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 940	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dave654,) I too discovered Zen through the Martial Arts. Zen developed seperately from Budhism and was adopted by Some Budhist Monks forming their sect of Zen Budhism. There are still Budhist who do not practice Zen. I don't consider Zen a religion because it does not teach of a creator, the creation of the Universe or outlay tenets for living, (social engineering.) Practicing Zen is simply developing a way of being. Zen concepts have their roots on early Brahman period Hinduism. The understanding that divinity is in us, the Atman, which can connect with the divinity without, the Brahman, is the underpining of Zen philosophy. A practicioner of any or no, organized religion can practice Zen. Zazen, is only one branch of Zen, meditating on Zen Kohens is one way to break through the logic/cognitive barrier, but certainly not the most efficient way. Personnaly, I did not follow this route. I took the more difficult, and longer root of meditaion only. I'm not here to "bag" on anyones belief system so you do what you feel is right but I would suggest you not rely solely on one man's teachings, and certainly not of one religions doctrine.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This is one point where we disagree. I do not consider Zen atheist or to have evolved seperately from Buddhism. It is a direct descendent of Chinese Buddhism. The Gods of Chinese Buddhism have comparable names in Japanese Zen. The meditative practices and the Kohens come from Chinese equivalents. Japanese Zen also blends with Shinto in Japan and so do the concepts of God or Gods, the native primal religion with many Gods and divinities. Buddhism and Zen allows some diversity of belief. Some practiioneers of Chinese Buddhism and Japanese Zen have assumed an athiestic belief, but this is not the basic belief of Buddhism. Buddhism does offer 'salvation', which varies some with different schools. Nirvana is described differently in different schools. but it remains a goal of all schools of Buddhism. Salvation is a distinct characteristic of religions. Actually all Buddhist schools believe in a ultimate divine enlightened source that is one with creation itself, but unknown and undefined from the human perspective. This definitely would not be the anthropomorphic 'clock maker' God from the Judeo/Christian/Islamic perspective, but it is in harmony with the Baha'i viewpoint of God. The empty cup contains the most Frank A Doonan Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk www.shunyadragon.com I do not know, therefore I think . . .

Mar 27, 2004, 07:05 pm	#98 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	Hey Sunny I'm pretty sure Zen developed on its own seprate from any religion. Sure you can find deities and commonalities with Zen practicioners belonging to a Chinese, Japanese, Indian, or any other religion. I only picked up a little Baha'i at the very end of my studies of world theology so I'm not very familiar with it and can't comment. I don't want to argue about religion with you since you seem to be devout and sincere in your beliefs. I've long since reached my conclusions and assumed responsibility for my own spiritual life.

Mar 27, 2004, 08:28 pm	#99 (permalink) (top)
shunyadragon Hot Lava Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 940	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dave654,) Hey Sunny I'm pretty sure Zen developed on its own seprate from any religion. Sure you can find deities and commonalities with Zen practicioners belonging to a Chinese, Japanese, Indian, or any other religion. I only picked up a little Baha'i at the very end of my studies of world theology so I'm not very familiar with it and can't comment. I don't want to argue about religion with you since you seem to be devout and sincere in your beliefs. I've long since reached my conclusions and assumed responsibility for my own spiritual life.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The obviousness of different points of view and argueing I don't think are issues here. This is a debate. The devoteness and sincerity of my beliefs is only a side issue in the debate. It would not effect my beliefs one way or another if Zen was a seperate religion or Buddhist, but . . . Most practioneers of Zen and the Zen scholars of Japan consider Zen to be Buddhist and have Buddhist origins. The empty cup contains the most Frank A Doonan Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk www.shunyadragon.com I do not know, therefore I think . . .

Mar 27, 2004, 11:23 pm	#100 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	Okay, I'll have to do a little more digging but I'll take your word for it since you seem to be more intimately involved in the topic than I. Have you been in any Buhdist Temples in Asia? Have you been involved in ceremonies where they do much chanting? If so, is it as cool as I imagine it is? I bet the vibrations are very relaxing.