Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Oct 22, 2004, 01:02 pm

I see most of the posts here concern Christianity or mentions of either of the other 2 Big Three faiths..Judaism or Islam...now myself..I'm a Pagan, proud of it...I'm a Cherokee Indian..amongst ourselves we are known as Tsalagi...we first encountered our lands in the American southeast some 12,000 yrs or so ago..we practiced an unbroken way of life until the coming of the European some 300 yrs ago...I pray and practice the same culture my family line has done for centuries..millenia..our theology isn't one of "I'm right..you're wrong"..you'd be hard pressed to find two Indian tribes that worshipped the Creator(s) the same way....there are no less then 25 Spirits..or manifestations of the Devine, whatever term may fit. in the Cherokee pantheon..we are a nature-based faith..we see equality in the rabbit..the squirrel...the wolf...and man...

We do not force our worship on another....we believe that Truth is like a river...one Source....many creeks...streams...lakes..etc..where all may have different perspectives..where the Devine is shown to them in their own way....We have our rituals..our ceremonies..but they are unique to my people....I would no more expect a Jew or Christian to understand and accept my sacrifice of a deer tongue then I do of the concept that a man can walk on water..

I also respect those who choose not to believe in anything but themselves..that too is the natural order of things..beliefs and faith is not real if not chosen....forced..it is shallow and empty...

I'm not sure if I have done my people's ways justice in this thread...I am not Aniwodi, the healers/sages of my tribe, I am not privy to the mysteries of our tribe..I am Aniwahya....Wolf Clan...where we have traditionally drawn our warriors/hunters from.

I just wanted others to know that there can be differing perspectives and yet no animosity.

Nono · Oct 22, 2004, 01:20 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ACause
We are a nature-based faith..we see equality in the rabbit..the squirrel...the wolf...and man...

Do you mean pagan as in god-of-this-god-of-that? Or a sort of animism that assigns humans no particularly special place in the order of things?

Seems to me that one definite problem with the monotheistic religions is that their god is essentially a supernatural human figure. This gives them the feeling that they can treat the "rest of" nature with contempt, as something quite apart.

Oct 22, 2004, 01:27 pm

Not quite...our Spirits can manifest themselves in the form of animals....yes...also vice versa...but they are merely part and parcel of everything as a whole.....and you're right...the big three do equate dominance with a species element to it...Man is top of the food chain..everything else..beneath them.

Some would say..."are you saying a Dog is just as good as me"...I'd have to say...yes..why do you think you're more?...are you not comprised of the same elements

Technosoul · Oct 22, 2004, 02:07 pm

I loved reading the book "Black Elk Speaks" and I would claim to be of the Native American belief system however I got the blood of an Englishman and so cannot be a full blooded member - but here is a story I wrote about the Divine Elements of water.

The River.

A frozen drop of water melts and flows downhill joining other drops as a small stream, it becomes waterfalls, ponds, lakes, sewer systems, rivers, backyard swimming pools, and the ocean.

Along the journey to the collective ocean the rivers make many detours, soaking up into the ground and being drawn upon by plants they become the flowing sap, animals partake of the waters and it becomes the flowing blood within them, pissed off the water flows back downhill towards the ocean. Even humans are what? 90 some percent water? The water flows in all living things before returning to the Mother Earth to continue downstream.

Then a selected few within the collective ocean, lake, or pond experiences the rapture of the Sun, they rise upwards into the air as fog, and collect in the heavens as clouds where the water is again purifed by the ozone. The clouds speak as Thunder Beings and can become hurricanes, tonados, superstorms and floods, or gentle rains. Or as snow.

So the water return from the heavens (sky clouds) to fall once more on the mountian top as frozen drops, each snow flake again assumes it design identity which individualism is unlike any other snow flake. And when commanded by the Sun it melts from it's personal identiy to become one with the tribe - aka the rivers and streams - as part of that unceasing circular motion.

"This wine is my blood" so says Mother Nature of the divine element, as the ageless elements of water flow within and around all things on our planet.

Polute not the waters of life (a little soapbox sermon tossed in).
Least the global rain dance brings Her wrath upon us.

Anyway - welcome Achase to theis forum, hope to hear more of your perspectives in the future.

Technosoul.

Starboy · Oct 22, 2004, 02:17 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ACause,
I just wanted others to know that there can be differing perspectives and yet no animosity.

I am always glad to hear from one who is satified with their traditions of life and sees no reason to think that everyone else should also practice their traditions. People who find joy in life through their traditions bring joy to me. Those damn Abrahamic religions could learn a great deal from your traditions.

Starboy

Oct 22, 2004, 02:39 pm

I agree...each person sees the Devine unique to them...as unique as one person is to another...or chooses not to believe in that unique viewpoint...that is also Truth..as they know it. I abhor the absoluteness that comes with any of the Big Three faiths.

Suburbanite · Oct 22, 2004, 03:34 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starboy,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-ACause,
I just wanted others to know that there can be differing perspectives and yet no animosity.

I am always glad to hear from one who is satified with their traditions of life and sees no reason to think that everyone else should also practice their traditions. People who find joy in life through their traditions bring joy to me. Those damn Abrahamic religions could learn a great deal from your traditions.

Starboy[/b][/quote]

Only Islam and Christianity, of the abrahamic faiths, seek conversions.

Starboy · Oct 22, 2004, 03:42 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Suburbanite,
Only Islam and Christianity, of the abrahamic faiths, seek conversions.

Except for the Jews that do. There are even Jews that think Christ was god but still observe Jewish traditions. But it is not proselytizing alone that makes the Abrahamic religions suck. There is so much more.

Starboy

Suburbanite · Oct 23, 2004, 03:21 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starboy,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Suburbanite,
Only Islam and Christianity, of the abrahamic faiths, seek conversions.

Except for the Jews that do. There are even Jews that think Christ was god but still observe Jewish traditions. But it is not proselytizing alone that makes the Abrahamic religions suck. There is so much more.

Starboy[/b][/quote]

Jews for Jesus are Christians, that is what a Christian is, but oh yes, there is so much else that makes them suck.

Oct 23, 2004, 03:33 am

Now..now gentleman...let's not become the intolerant that the Christian says we are.....I can understand them...I truly can...no one of faith can truly compromise in the Abrahamic religions... it is just their way....and truth be told..there are several aspects I can admire...the Christian Beatitudes are a comfort to their faith.

Starboy · Oct 23, 2004, 12:42 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Suburbanite,
Jews for Jesus are Christians, that is what a Christian is....

And here is another arrogance of the faithful. Telling Jews and Christians how to be Jews and Christians is something that only people that are Jews and Christians do. I do not question the Jew that says they are fully Jewish yet believe that Jesus was god. I merely make a note of it. As an atheist it is not my place to tell anybody how to believe in their particular theism. Just as it is not their place to tell me how to lack such a belief.

Suburbanite, the more you post the more I think you are a closet theist if not an outright liar for Jesus

Starboy

Suburbanite · Oct 24, 2004, 04:53 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starboy,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Suburbanite,
Jews for Jesus are Christians, that is what a Christian is....

And here is another arrogance of the faithful. Telling Jews and Christians how to be Jews and Christians is something that only people that are Jews and Christians do. I do not question the Jew that says they are fully Jewish yet believe that Jesus was god. I merely make a note of it. As an atheist it is not my place to tell anybody how to believe in their particular theism. Just as it is not their place to tell me how to lack such a belief.

Suburbanite, the more you post the more I think you are a closet theist if not an outright liar for Jesus
[/b][/quote]

Are you stupid?! God, I had such hopes for you when you started posting, but your ability of perception is just so faulty I have to wonder about you. I'm not a theist, and I'm not a liar, and if you call me one once again I'm afraid there will not be a shred of civility left in what I have to say to you.

Judaism: The belief in the monotheistic God Yahweh and the Old Testament.
Christianity: The belief in the monotheistic God Yahweh and his son Jesus as well as the Old and New Testament.

All Christians are Jews in those regards. Much ass all squares are rectangles. But not all rectangles are squares. And not all Jews are Christians. So a Christian is a Jew in addition to other principles... making him a Christian or according to their faith the "True Jews". I understand the concept with unfailing clarity. It is not incorrect to call them Christians then though, as that is what a Christian in fact is, a Jew for Jesus.

Suburbanite · Oct 24, 2004, 04:53 am

Quote:

Originally posted by ACause,
Now..now gentleman...let's not become the intolerant that the Christian says we are.....I can understand them...I truly can...no one of faith can truly compromise in the Abrahamic religions... it is just their way....and truth be told..there are several aspects I can admire...the Christian Beatitudes are a comfort to their faith.

Intolerance is crucial in this case.

admiraladz · Oct 24, 2004, 07:33 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Suburbanite,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Suburbanite,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Are you stupid?! [/b]

or as the posting rules state

<!--QuoteBegin-Suburbanite,
God, I had such hopes for you when you started posting, but your ability of perception is just so faulty I have to wonder about you. I'm not a theist, and I'm not a liar, and if you call me one once again I'm afraid there will not be a shred of civility left in what I have to say to you.[/quote]

So because he questioned (he didn't even disagree!) you spit venom. What is debate if it is not questioning? Why are you even here?

I propose you post here merely to attempt to indoctrinate others into your mode of thought - and if you refer to my reply to your other post about your sadistic trip to a Narcotis Anonymous meeting thread and then LYING about having an addiction in order to 'fit in' I think you might slowly begin to realise that your rage at being contradicted is not from the disagreement itself, but the repurcussions it has for your own internal belief system.

I have yet to see you post anything positive.

Suburbanite · Oct 24, 2004, 07:46 am

This has little to do with you my dear, that post was for Starboy, and I will gladly await his reply, if you don't mind.

Starboy · Oct 24, 2004, 11:13 am

Suburbanite, when it comes to supernatural religions I am stupid. I am an idiot. I am a moron. That is because I do not claim to be an advocate of supernatural religion of any kind. I have observed that just about every supernatural religionist on the planet is a cherry picker and why they pick some parts over others is beyond me. So I have found that by the appropriate picking a Jew can be a Christian, a Christian a Jew, an Muslim a Jew, an X a fill in the blank. I do not bother to tell them what they are. For the rest of the supernatural theist that follow a dogma or the “truth” if you will, these people do not come up with their own beliefs. They go to some church where the pastor or minister or rabbi or mullah or priest or whatever tell them what to think, what to believe and how to act. The people doing the teaching are also cherry pickers and choose a part over others all the while insisting that it is all the "truth". Why these people choose one part over another is also beyond me. In order for these believers to be inoculated against reality so that they will maintain their beliefs no matter how much they clash with reality or even their very own religious teachings these people are taught to practice the religiously institutionalized double standard called faith. This double standard teaches them to hold their beliefs to a different standard than any other belief that they hold. They will not apply the same standard to their own religious belief that they would readily apply to any other religious belief. When it comes to this I am also a moron, an idiot, stupid or what ever you want to call me. Such thinking is just inconceivable to me. I am too honest, too curious, too interested in actually knowing reality to practice such a thing. When people practice such faith there is no way for me to comprehend any decisions that they make. So if you are disappointed, that I am such a moron when it comes to such things, sorry about that.

So when I find someone that thinks something that would be inconceivable to anyone not using the double standard of faith and that actually knew and studied their religion, I do not try to tell them anything. The methods that they use are beyond me and it is beyond me why anyone would practice such methods.

I do not tell such people how to be what they claim they are. If a Jew can believe that Jesus is god, it is no stranger to me then them thinking that god loves everyone, that he will torture people in hell for eternity, and that people should believe them because god talks to them through revelation. A Jew believing that Jesus is god is trivial compared to the other outrageous things that they commonly think.

Starboy

Oct 24, 2004, 05:04 pm

whewww....politics and religion..two things which should probably never be discussed online..yet...lol..they are the two things most discussed.

Suburbanite · Oct 24, 2004, 06:23 pm

I'll agree with you there Starboy, I think it is all weird and incomprehensible. I think I've said before, I really have no idea how someone can be blindly spiritual, it seems to take away from self empowerment amongst numerous other conditions religion sparks up. Regardless, I know what something is and feel as qualified as any other to talk about it. I can tell a Republican what republican principles are, or a liberal what liberal positions are, and while I certainly can't make them change who they claim to be, I am very capable of making my own categorizations. I have a friend who is a die-hard Bush fan. Yet when you ask him about any of his policies he disagrees with Bush on every single one. He is also kind of stupid, and I mean that in a very real way. So when I think of him and his politics I know he is a liberal, and he can call himself a Republican as much as he wants.

Starboy · Oct 24, 2004, 07:21 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Suburbanite,
I have a friend who is a die-hard Bush fan. Yet when you ask him about any of his policies he disagrees with Bush on every single one. He is also kind of stupid, and I mean that in a very real way. So when I think of him and his politics I know he is a liberal, and he can call himself a Republican as much as he wants.

Don't be too hard on the guy. Don't you know? Politics has become sport. You just pick a team and root for it. It doesn't matter if they suck.

Starboy

Technosoul · Oct 24, 2004, 11:01 pm

It would be nice if people could speak about the topics instead of childhood name calling.

But then suggesting that people debate properly would be like inventing a "moral standard" which would be preaching.

If science claims to be honest and if that is their moral standard then why don't they just keep it instead of expecting everyone to conform thier that standard?

Oct 22, 2004, 01:02 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
ACause Guest Posts: n/a	I see most of the posts here concern Christianity or mentions of either of the other 2 Big Three faiths..Judaism or Islam...now myself..I'm a Pagan, proud of it...I'm a Cherokee Indian..amongst ourselves we are known as Tsalagi...we first encountered our lands in the American southeast some 12,000 yrs or so ago..we practiced an unbroken way of life until the coming of the European some 300 yrs ago...I pray and practice the same culture my family line has done for centuries..millenia..our theology isn't one of "I'm right..you're wrong"..you'd be hard pressed to find two Indian tribes that worshipped the Creator(s) the same way....there are no less then 25 Spirits..or manifestations of the Devine, whatever term may fit. in the Cherokee pantheon..we are a nature-based faith..we see equality in the rabbit..the squirrel...the wolf...and man... We do not force our worship on another....we believe that Truth is like a river...one Source....many creeks...streams...lakes..etc..where all may have different perspectives..where the Devine is shown to them in their own way....We have our rituals..our ceremonies..but they are unique to my people....I would no more expect a Jew or Christian to understand and accept my sacrifice of a deer tongue then I do of the concept that a man can walk on water.. I also respect those who choose not to believe in anything but themselves..that too is the natural order of things..beliefs and faith is not real if not chosen....forced..it is shallow and empty... I'm not sure if I have done my people's ways justice in this thread...I am not Aniwodi, the healers/sages of my tribe, I am not privy to the mysteries of our tribe..I am Aniwahya....Wolf Clan...where we have traditionally drawn our warriors/hunters from. I just wanted others to know that there can be differing perspectives and yet no animosity.

Oct 22, 2004, 01:27 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
ACause Guest Posts: n/a	Not quite...our Spirits can manifest themselves in the form of animals....yes...also vice versa...but they are merely part and parcel of everything as a whole.....and you're right...the big three do equate dominance with a species element to it...Man is top of the food chain..everything else..beneath them. Some would say..."are you saying a Dog is just as good as me"...I'd have to say...yes..why do you think you're more?...are you not comprised of the same elements

Oct 22, 2004, 02:07 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Technosoul Volcanic Erupter Posts: 8,663	I loved reading the book "Black Elk Speaks" and I would claim to be of the Native American belief system however I got the blood of an Englishman and so cannot be a full blooded member - but here is a story I wrote about the Divine Elements of water. The River. A frozen drop of water melts and flows downhill joining other drops as a small stream, it becomes waterfalls, ponds, lakes, sewer systems, rivers, backyard swimming pools, and the ocean. Along the journey to the collective ocean the rivers make many detours, soaking up into the ground and being drawn upon by plants they become the flowing sap, animals partake of the waters and it becomes the flowing blood within them, pissed off the water flows back downhill towards the ocean. Even humans are what? 90 some percent water? The water flows in all living things before returning to the Mother Earth to continue downstream. Then a selected few within the collective ocean, lake, or pond experiences the rapture of the Sun, they rise upwards into the air as fog, and collect in the heavens as clouds where the water is again purifed by the ozone. The clouds speak as Thunder Beings and can become hurricanes, tonados, superstorms and floods, or gentle rains. Or as snow. So the water return from the heavens (sky clouds) to fall once more on the mountian top as frozen drops, each snow flake again assumes it design identity which individualism is unlike any other snow flake. And when commanded by the Sun it melts from it's personal identiy to become one with the tribe - aka the rivers and streams - as part of that unceasing circular motion. "This wine is my blood" so says Mother Nature of the divine element, as the ageless elements of water flow within and around all things on our planet. Polute not the waters of life (a little soapbox sermon tossed in). Least the global rain dance brings Her wrath upon us. Anyway - welcome Achase to theis forum, hope to hear more of your perspectives in the future. Technosoul.

Oct 22, 2004, 02:39 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
ACause Guest Posts: n/a	I agree...each person sees the Devine unique to them...as unique as one person is to another...or chooses not to believe in that unique viewpoint...that is also Truth..as they know it. I abhor the absoluteness that comes with any of the Big Three faiths.

Oct 23, 2004, 03:33 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
ACause Guest Posts: n/a	Now..now gentleman...let's not become the intolerant that the Christian says we are.....I can understand them...I truly can...no one of faith can truly compromise in the Abrahamic religions... it is just their way....and truth be told..there are several aspects I can admire...the Christian Beatitudes are a comfort to their faith.

Oct 24, 2004, 07:46 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	This has little to do with you my dear, that post was for Starboy, and I will gladly await his reply, if you don't mind.

Oct 24, 2004, 11:13 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
Starboy BANNED: Repeated insults Posts: 4,828	Suburbanite, when it comes to supernatural religions I am stupid. I am an idiot. I am a moron. That is because I do not claim to be an advocate of supernatural religion of any kind. I have observed that just about every supernatural religionist on the planet is a cherry picker and why they pick some parts over others is beyond me. So I have found that by the appropriate picking a Jew can be a Christian, a Christian a Jew, an Muslim a Jew, an X a fill in the blank. I do not bother to tell them what they are. For the rest of the supernatural theist that follow a dogma or the “truth” if you will, these people do not come up with their own beliefs. They go to some church where the pastor or minister or rabbi or mullah or priest or whatever tell them what to think, what to believe and how to act. The people doing the teaching are also cherry pickers and choose a part over others all the while insisting that it is all the "truth". Why these people choose one part over another is also beyond me. In order for these believers to be inoculated against reality so that they will maintain their beliefs no matter how much they clash with reality or even their very own religious teachings these people are taught to practice the religiously institutionalized double standard called faith. This double standard teaches them to hold their beliefs to a different standard than any other belief that they hold. They will not apply the same standard to their own religious belief that they would readily apply to any other religious belief. When it comes to this I am also a moron, an idiot, stupid or what ever you want to call me. Such thinking is just inconceivable to me. I am too honest, too curious, too interested in actually knowing reality to practice such a thing. When people practice such faith there is no way for me to comprehend any decisions that they make. So if you are disappointed, that I am such a moron when it comes to such things, sorry about that. So when I find someone that thinks something that would be inconceivable to anyone not using the double standard of faith and that actually knew and studied their religion, I do not try to tell them anything. The methods that they use are beyond me and it is beyond me why anyone would practice such methods. I do not tell such people how to be what they claim they are. If a Jew can believe that Jesus is god, it is no stranger to me then them thinking that god loves everyone, that he will torture people in hell for eternity, and that people should believe them because god talks to them through revelation. A Jew believing that Jesus is god is trivial compared to the other outrageous things that they commonly think. Starboy

Oct 24, 2004, 05:04 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
ACause Guest Posts: n/a	whewww....politics and religion..two things which should probably never be discussed online..yet...lol..they are the two things most discussed.

Oct 24, 2004, 06:23 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	I'll agree with you there Starboy, I think it is all weird and incomprehensible. I think I've said before, I really have no idea how someone can be blindly spiritual, it seems to take away from self empowerment amongst numerous other conditions religion sparks up. Regardless, I know what something is and feel as qualified as any other to talk about it. I can tell a Republican what republican principles are, or a liberal what liberal positions are, and while I certainly can't make them change who they claim to be, I am very capable of making my own categorizations. I have a friend who is a die-hard Bush fan. Yet when you ask him about any of his policies he disagrees with Bush on every single one. He is also kind of stupid, and I mean that in a very real way. So when I think of him and his politics I know he is a liberal, and he can call himself a Republican as much as he wants.

Oct 24, 2004, 11:01 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Technosoul Volcanic Erupter Posts: 8,663	It would be nice if people could speak about the topics instead of childhood name calling. But then suggesting that people debate properly would be like inventing a "moral standard" which would be preaching. If science claims to be honest and if that is their moral standard then why don't they just keep it instead of expecting everyone to conform thier that standard?