SEX! & religion

[Peter]

Ha, got your attention didn't I?

Some recent posts in other threads have reminded me of the unhealthy obsession religion has with sex. It seems most of the major religions are positively frantic over sex and how to control it. Why is this?

Of course I have a theory. First, evolution has given us many drives but few are more powerful than procreation - sex. If I had to order them I would say breathing and eating followed by sex and then everything else.

The inventors of gods and religions were clever people and realized that for religion to be a large part of human life it had to be right up there in importance with eating and sex. What better way to make religion important than to fill it with rules about eating and sex?

What do you think?

[pbxilixdq]

Ha, got your attention didn't I?

Some recent posts in other threads have reminded me of the unhealthy obsession religion has with sex. It seems most of the major religions are positively frantic over sex and how to control it. Why is this?

Of course I have a theory. First, evolution has given us many drives but few are more powerful than procreation - sex. If I had to order them I would say breathing and eating followed by sex and then everything else.

The inventors of gods and religions were clever people and realized that for religion to be a large part of human life it had to be right up there in importance with eating and sex. What better way to make religion important than to fill it with rules about eating and sex?

What do you think?

I think you're right that sex is important to religion but I don't think it's because the "inventors of gods" were going around being tricksters and manipulators. I think the origins of religion have always been mostly sincere (although delusional). Back then everyone was superstitious and you can't blame them. Very little was understood at that time. I think sex has found it's way so entangled with religion because these people couldn't imagine sex in a pure or innocent way. Sex has so many psychological aspects many of which can be interpreted as dirty, shameful, unpure, etc. Think about the "id" and the "superego". Obviously those terms aren't always valid, but you can kind of see the struggle in one's religious brain when juggling these innate desires to stick your penis into whatever looks good and trying to be a good moral person on the "straight and narrow". Life was harder back then, and being a good person might not have been as easy as it is now. Temptations may have been associated with immorality.

I don't hold these opinions, but surely you can imagine the people of that time thinking this way. Just my on-the-spot hypothesis at least. haha

[Sonart]

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Of course I have a theory. First, evolution has given us many drives but few are more powerful than procreation - sex. If I had to order them I would say breathing and eating followed by sex and then everything else.

You're halfway there. Evolution gave us a huge sex drive, all the better to fulfill the basic evolutionary drive to "Be fruitful and multiply". Evolution also gave human females a monthly estrus cycle, rather than yearly.

But then, evolution created some nasty problems. One, it gave us huge brains... so huge, in fact, that unlike other animals, we had to bear our infants long, long before they're capable of walking or caring for themselves. In fact, evolution had to allow babies skulls to be collapsible just to be able to get through the birth canal.

That meant that human children have to be cared for, at the very minimum, for 8 to 10 years, by both a mother - to nurture - and a father - to provide. Add siblings and the time and responsibility increases by parents increases.

Not to mention that the children have to be taught the vast amounts of knowledge required for a young human to assume their role as contributing members of the tribe.

THEREFORE, while sex is designed to be crazy fun - in order to keep folks doing it - it also leads to procreation, and more importantly, child rearing, which makes it far too serious a matter to be treated irresponsibly.

THEREFORE, our instincts, our 'better angels', inform us that sex should not be practiced by humans too young to responsibly care for their offspring, that sex should not be practiced without a formal, unbreakable commitment to stay together - for the purpose of raising children, and that activities that threaten the trust and stability of marriage - like adultery - should be harshly frowned upon.

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[Buzz62]

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You're halfway there. Evolution gave us a huge sex drive, all the better to fulfill the basic evolutionary drive to "Be fruitful and multiply". Evolution also gave human females a monthly estrus cycle, rather than yearly.

But then, evolution created some nasty problems. One, it gave us huge brains... so huge, in fact, that unlike other animals, we had to bear our infants long, long before they're capable of walking or caring for themselves. In fact, evolution had to allow babies skulls to be collapsible just to be able to get through the birth canal.

That meant that human children have to be cared for, at the very minimum, for 8 to 10 years, by both a mother - to nurture - and a father - to provide. Add siblings and the time and responsibility increases by parents increases.

Not to mention that the children have to be taught the vast amounts of knowledge required for a young human to assume their role as contributing members of the tribe.

THEREFORE, while sex is designed to be crazy fun - in order to keep folks doing it - it also leads to procreation, and more importantly, child rearing, which makes it far too serious a matter to be treated irresponsibly.

THEREFORE, our instincts, our 'better angels', inform us that sex should not be practiced by humans too young to responsibly care for their offspring, that sex should not be practiced without a formal, unbreakable commitment to stay together - for the purpose of raising children, and that activities that threaten the trust and stability of marriage - like adultery - should be harshly frowned upon.

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I would tend to agree with this summary.
I would also like to add that it seems apparent that most religions (I exclude Buddhism) have an under current of male supremacy in them. I also believe this was by design.

I don't know enough about Islam or Judaism to comment past I see this being the case. But in the case of Christianity...Its almost a declaration of war against the sex. From the original sin through to women not being accepted as equals, the Christian doctrine is rife with 'Barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen'.
As for Priests not being able to Marry...this, IMO, is a financially motivated rule. Without legal heirs, a Priest's estate would go to...you guessed it...the Church.

It was common for Priests to have live-in house-keepers. And they always seemed to have a 'fatherless child' to deal with...hmmmmmm....

[Angry Citizen]

The only religions which seem so focused on sexuality are the Judeo-Christian religions and their offshoots. It is a product of a patriarchal society which valued female chastity. I suspect this is due to xenophobia, ultimately.

[Sonart]

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The only religions which seem so focused on sexuality are the Judeo-Christian religions and their offshoots. It is a product of a patriarchal society which valued female chastity. I suspect this is due to xenophobia, ultimately.

I'd agree... to a point. Other religions take sex seriously, but take more of an attitude that it's a good thing, that it's perfectly natural.

Some recent Judeo-Christianity has taken the seriousness of responsible sex to a whole new level, in which sex has become a bad thing, a 'dirty, immoral' thing to be barely tolerated for the purposes of creating heirs and certainly not to be enjoyed. After all, enjoyment simply makes irresponsible sex a temptation.

I would also like to add that it seems apparent that most religions (I exclude Buddhism) have an under current of male supremacy in them. I also believe this was by design.

Actually, on an anthropological level, patriarchal societies are relatively new.

Not that it changes anything, but it's still interesting.

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[Peter]

I pulled this from the moral authority thread because it belongs here.

You're so right brother, let's have sex in the name of morality.

Theft and murder are so bad, but public display of affection should be condoned in the name of morality. Let's have sex on the street.

You're so right, we would just relish the morality tied to AngryCitizen or arX. A lesbian's dream come true.

So true, so true.

Why are theists always so fixated on sex? Is it a clue that the drive to procreate is right up there with the drive to eat and breathe. Maybe theism is a type of mental disease like anorexia? Hmmm, isn't anorexia a type of control over ones body to compensate for lack of control elsewhere in your life? Maybe religion is basically a means to try and control sex in your life in a similar way. These people need to control something and the strongest thing in themselves is the sex drive so they control that. I suppose it's plausible because eating and having sex are equal drives in some people - me anyway. Any thoughts?

[Jack]

Mystics and hermits were considered "closer to god" in large part to their rejection of human and sexual relations. I suspect that's why none of the gospels say anything about Jesus' sexual life. Their intent is to portray him as "above" normal human needs like sex, though he still ate and breathed.

[Offeror]

There is no denial of sex being natural, and a requirement that is right up there for some, and not so quite up there for others.

Religions that deny people the right to fulfill this requirement, are not realistic, although I don't think any religion does that. However, religions do take a strong exception to behavior that is without discipline. Control is the word that is often associated with, God and religions, that is they try to control people's lives, and their sexual lives too.

Why do they control it? The answer is partially provided by Jack, with relation to hermits. However hermits are an extreme case. Religion does not prohibit man from most of the stuff, but just provides an acceptable level, or limit to discipline the people.

The importance of sex, I think was emphasized by one Mr. Sigmund Freud, and he did it to such an extent, that he ultimately linked the minutest detail in a human dream, as a symbolic representation of suppressed desires, which according to his theories, was the sexual desire. Maybe he exaggerated the facts a bit, but I think his opinion carries some weight.

Well keeping in view, the importance of the issue to man, a religion that doesn't cover this matter would have omitted an important detail.

Back to why religions control it and limit it, they try to limit and discipline almost all spheres of human life. I'm talking more from an Islamic point of view now,
Five times a day prayer at specific timings, is the first step towards disciplining an individual. When a man is in prayer, he cannot talk with any other person. He has to keep his eyes on specified positions during prayer. Strict adherence to these apparently trivial issues, is like a training. If a man controls such minor stuff on a regular day-to-day basis, he gets trained to control other stuff.

For instance, a man should not lie, but many do lie if it saves their ass, but religion undermines the individual whereby he keeps the principle of being truthful ahead of his personal face-saving. Therefore, the ego is gradually controlled or rather tamed.
I am the man! is not the way to go.

Then one has to control his tongue, i.e. whatever he says should be polite and decent. One has to control his basic desires such as eating and drinking, as the filling up the stomach to the brim is disliked in religion. If you drink water, you take water only with the right hand, if you eat food you only take it with the right hand, as the left hand is used for cleanliness in the wash-room. Such minor details, bit by bit, they add up, to make a man who has control over his desires, who doesn't lust for money, and is more willing to spend for others.

Sex is no exception to all of the above, it is also specifically prohibited that one should think beyond a legal sexual relationship, because that depicts a lack of control over the sexual desire. And religion does permit the sexual satisfaction within the discipline of limiting it to a legal sexual relationship. Not only does it strengthen the family, but it also strengthens the society. Maybe some of you might not be knowing this, but the Quran on the one hand tells the women to wear a veil, which is also a control, and on the other hand, instructs the man to lower his gaze if a bad thought comes into his mind when he sees a woman.

These are of course, trivial issues and when one takes care of the details, the bigger picture falls into place. This explanation is by far only a glimpse of the philosophy that at least I find very attractive, as it lays the foundation of a reform within an individual, and if spread and propagated properly, within a society. Its no wonder that desert-dwelling nomads, went on to rule the world.

[Walrus]

Sex is pleasurable and such worldly pleasures distract us from the worship of God, which is bad. To rectify this we have religious dogmas to control our sexuality, inflict guilt on us and keep us under the thumb.

[grandpa]

Sex is pleasurable and such worldly pleasures distract us from
the worship of God, which is bad.
To rectify this we have religious dogmas to control our
sexuality, inflict guilt on us and keep us under the
thumb.

Unless sex is your religion, in which case pleasure matters most, and worship will never find you nodding off in church.

Religious dogma creates the problem of sin, usually out of very little. And those who created the problem got exactly the world they asked for -- a world dependent on superstition to answer questions more complicated than superstition can answer. And no one believed us skeptics because it's bad to question.

Grandpa h.

[Peter]

There is no denial of sex being natural, and a requirement that is right up there for some, and not so quite up there for others.

Religions that deny people the right to fulfill this requirement, are not realistic, although I don't think any religion does that. However, religions do take a strong exception to behavior that is without discipline. Control is the word that is often associated with, God and religions, that is they try to control people's lives, and their sexual lives too.

Right. I'm convinced that it was recognized very early on that religion was a good way to control the "great unwashed masses". Hell, it's still effective if you can get people to buy into it.

Why do they(religions) control it(sex)?
Well keeping in view, the importance of the issue to man, a religion that doesn't cover this matter would have omitted an important detail.

Yes, any religion that wants to completely take over a persons life must include rules for sexual behavior. Eating is also a biggie and we know religions are all over that. I suppose there'd be rules about breathing in religions too if anybody could figure out how to do that without killing the very people you want to enslave.

Back to why religions control it and limit it, they try to limit and discipline almost all spheres of human life. I'm talking more from an Islamic point of view now.

Oh goodie! sorry, carry on...

Five times a day prayer at specific timings, is the first step towards disciplining an individual. When a man is in prayer, he cannot talk with any other person. He has to keep his eyes on specified positions during prayer. Strict adherence to these apparently trivial issues, is like a training. If a man controls such minor stuff on a regular day-to-day basis, he gets trained to control other stuff.

Yeah, I can't help but notice how much all these rules and repetition is like military basic training. The goal of basic training is to take normal people and turn them into order obeying zombies, mostly. Officer training tries to turn their students into order giving zombies, mostly. You can't see this though can you? That's the funny thing, a good soldier is so brainwashed that he can't see that he's become a robot, a simple biological extension ready to do the will of some greater power. People like this are necessary, unfortunately, for a civilization to defend itself or to impose it's will on others. In bygone ages religions fielded armies with the same goals so it's hardly surprising that armies and religious followers are hard to tell apart.

For instance, a man should not lie, but many do lie if it saves their ass, but religion undermines the individual whereby he keeps the principle of being truthful ahead of his personal face-saving. Therefore, the ego is gradually controlled or rather tamed.
I am the man! is not the way to go.

Again, an army has no use for a personal ego in any of it's soldiers. Their purpose is to act as an instrument of some greater power so individuality is highly discouraged.

Then one has to control his tongue, i.e. whatever he says should be polite and decent. One has to control his basic desires such as eating and drinking, as the filling up the stomach to the brim is disliked in religion. If you drink water, you take water only with the right hand, if you eat food you only take it with the right hand, as the left hand is used for cleanliness in the wash-room. Such minor details, bit by bit, they add up, to make a man who has control over his desires, who doesn't lust for money, and is more willing to spend for others.

More of the same conditioning although dictating which hand you use to wipe your ass is over the top IMO!

Sex is no exception to all of the above, it is also specifically prohibited that one should think beyond a legal sexual relationship, because that depicts a lack of control over the sexual desire. And religion does permit the sexual satisfaction within the discipline of limiting it to a legal sexual relationship. Not only does it strengthen the family, but it also strengthens the society. Maybe some of you might not be knowing this, but the Quran on the one hand tells the women to wear a veil, which is also a control, and on the other hand, instructs the man to lower his gaze if a bad thought comes into his mind when he sees a woman.

Right, we don't want the troops distracted by a flash of female flesh. Quite understandable.

These are of course, trivial issues and when one takes care of the details, the bigger picture falls into place. This explanation is by far only a glimpse of the philosophy that at least I find very attractive, as it lays the foundation of a reform within an individual, and if spread and propagated properly, within a society. Its no wonder that desert-dwelling nomads, went on to rule the world.

Congratulations, you're one of those people who thrive under a taskmaster. You like nothing better than to be told what to do and when to do it. You take satisfaction and comfort from performing endless repetitive rituals. You imagine, as you have been taught, that without this control you would go wild satisfying your primal desires. I wonder sometimes if religion isn't actually doing our world some good by controlling many people who would otherwise be a threat to humanity if they were free to determine right from wrong on their own.

Sorry for the text wall everybody.