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Vee · Oct 18, 2004, 07:05 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Suburbanite,
Ideals don't exist.

based on this

I say ideals are ideas that we aspire to be like or hope to evolve to challenging this

so if you accept my theory that ideals are ideas, then you must reject suburbanites otherwise there is no ideas and progress cannot be made

I'm sure my concept can be modified some more.

what do you think? do ideals exist?

rhod01 · Oct 18, 2004, 09:59 am

An ideal is an idea that has not been tested.

Though many ideas have been tested, so there are very few ideals left.

Ken Carman · Oct 18, 2004, 10:55 am

Using my own definition I would say that ideals are ideas that we have about the way things should be, but since they don't quite fit what many consider to be "reality" we assign them as a goal worthy of achieving... a way to be a better person and improve society... make self and/or society more perfect or "ideal." Ideals come from ideas, but because of the extra baggage are really kind of seperate, though interconnected. Ideals are internal and external, and often both. Pro-Life folks have more of an ideal, than an idea. Pro-gun control folks have more of an ideal, than an idea. I have an ideal. be a thin, successful and well-respected, perhaps even slightly famous but not infamous, person. If that was an "idea," I would would consider myself somewhat delusional... some might argue more than "somewhat..."

It's kind of like how I started this reply. We are given dictionary definitions. Those who publish dictionaries get their definitions from assessing how people use words. Words are always being redefined all the time by those of us who see beyond dictionaries, who see new uses for these words, and also redefine words according to our perceptions. Those of us who attempt to do this have ideals. Dictionary publishers have an idea... and always preconcieved notions. (Not always their own, but always of others.) A dictionary is somewhat dated even before it's published, just like a statistic or polling data.

"Politically correct" wouldn't mean what it means today if this weren't the case. "Liberal" wouldn't mean what it means today. The mouse in your hand would have fur. (BTW, have we ever decided if having 2 of such items is "mice" or "mouses?" As an ex-English major "mouses" sounds horrible, but "mice" for computer mouse doesn't quite sound right either!)

It's a fine distiction, but it is a distinction. Nuance does exist, no matter how hard those who hate the concept attempt to eliminate it.

Suburbanite · Oct 18, 2004, 11:50 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Vee,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Vee,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Suburbanite,
Ideals don't exist.

based on this

I say ideals are ideas that we aspire to be like or hope to evolve to challenging this

so if you accept my theory that ideals are ideas, then you must reject suburbanites otherwise there is no ideas and progress cannot be made

I'm sure my concept can be modified some more.

what do you think? do ideals exist?[/b][/quote]

They exist only as neurological activity, in that sense. Ideals though take on a certain divine principle. If we can look at the shape of a house and say it looks as if it is smiling, we are personifying it. If we look at an ideal, we are not comparing it to ourselves, but to God instead, who undoubtedly does not exist. Ideals are divine, with supreme moral oversight, and are thus not subject to our world, the real world-- the world of existence. And the only thing to do from there, in our one life, is to make an ideal as real as possible, and once it becomes real we soon realize how imperfect it really is.
So all an ideal is, is a human characteristic being held up to the light of God, much as an animals could be held up to a humans light. The only problem is that God is an ideal as well.

Suburbanite · Oct 18, 2004, 11:54 am

I dont give a fuck if what I just said was true or whatever it was goddamn smoooooooooth! Some Kundera type shit, I really like that.

Samildanach · Oct 18, 2004, 12:12 pm

Errrmmm....no I don't think ideals have anything to do with god whatsoever. An ideal is an optimum, in fact replace ideal with optimum and you have it .
Most people would say in an ideal situation...you can say in an optimum situation this should be the case, its like the max output or most beneficial state a system can be in.

Suburbanite · Oct 18, 2004, 05:02 pm

It is comparative not realistic. Try interpreting it; don't take it literally.

Vee · Oct 18, 2004, 11:06 pm

I realise after signing off, at least I think, that suburbanite meant ideals cannot be achieved thus do not exist rather than the concept of ideals not existing :)

Suburbanite · Oct 19, 2004, 04:00 am

Bingo, somewhat.

Technosoul · Oct 19, 2004, 04:33 am

Idealistically everyone should have the same perfect idea.

My idea about ideals is that they are indeed "If-ing goals" that we think would make life more perfect.

If I had lots of money, If the world was a peace, If I had another cup of coffee, If I was famous, If the boss liked me better then that other worker, If I could find a perfect lover, If I could loose some fat, If I had another candy bar, If - if - if - and if. If had such and such everything would be alright, if the world or my surroundings were better, then everything would be all right.

There is a two fold problem with such idealism and those if-ing goals however. One - when we cannot get what we yearn for we become depressed and unhappy. But if we get our "ifs" we would find they did not provide the satifaction we had expected, all that money, sex, and fame did not in fact make our life better. then we get really down in the dumps and must find another idealism to if about - "If I went to chruch more and did good deeds" - but again, in doing so we still find we are stuck with our empty feelings inside, nothing fill the void - not one idealistic goal. All that process if not corrected could lead to that final idealism which is "perhaps IF I was dead everything would be all right". The idealism of suicide.

So do not think "perhaps if I won one more game of Bingo everything would be okay and then I would be happy". It is a dead end street.

Ideas are different, they are thoughts you can work with, perhaps invent something, they motivate and have potentials but not for the purpose of fulfilling what we perceive as a spiritual lacking or some personal lacking.

That is my insight on this topic, although idealistically these ideas could have been better put... hee hee... but perfectionism was never something I needed to desire.

Technosoul.

Oct 18, 2004, 09:59 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
rhod01 Socialist Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 226	An ideal is an idea that has not been tested. Though many ideas have been tested, so there are very few ideals left. http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/1153/gates8lq.jpg Political Compass Position: Economic Left/Right:-9.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian:-7.13

Oct 18, 2004, 10:55 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Ken Carman Just plain WEIRD Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 1,495	Using my own definition I would say that ideals are ideas that we have about the way things should be, but since they don't quite fit what many consider to be "reality" we assign them as a goal worthy of achieving... a way to be a better person and improve society... make self and/or society more perfect or "ideal." Ideals come from ideas, but because of the extra baggage are really kind of seperate, though interconnected. Ideals are internal and external, and often both. Pro-Life folks have more of an ideal, than an idea. Pro-gun control folks have more of an ideal, than an idea. I have an ideal. be a thin, successful and well-respected, perhaps even slightly famous but not infamous, person. If that was an "idea," I would would consider myself somewhat delusional... some might argue more than "somewhat..." It's kind of like how I started this reply. We are given dictionary definitions. Those who publish dictionaries get their definitions from assessing how people use words. Words are always being redefined all the time by those of us who see beyond dictionaries, who see new uses for these words, and also redefine words according to our perceptions. Those of us who attempt to do this have ideals. Dictionary publishers have an idea... and always preconcieved notions. (Not always their own, but always of others.) A dictionary is somewhat dated even before it's published, just like a statistic or polling data. "Politically correct" wouldn't mean what it means today if this weren't the case. "Liberal" wouldn't mean what it means today. The mouse in your hand would have fur. (BTW, have we ever decided if having 2 of such items is "mice" or "mouses?" As an ex-English major "mouses" sounds horrible, but "mice" for computer mouse doesn't quite sound right either!) It's a fine distiction, but it is a distinction. Nuance does exist, no matter how hard those who hate the concept attempt to eliminate it. Ken's weekly column... Inspection... on site Inspection... off site.

Oct 18, 2004, 12:12 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	Errrmmm....no I don't think ideals have anything to do with god whatsoever. An ideal is an optimum, in fact replace ideal with optimum and you have it . Most people would say in an ideal situation...you can say in an optimum situation this should be the case, its like the max output or most beneficial state a system can be in. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Oct 18, 2004, 11:06 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Vee Igneous Magma Posts: 358	I realise after signing off, at least I think, that suburbanite meant ideals cannot be achieved thus do not exist rather than the concept of ideals not existing :) Australian Political Discussion Site Aussies: Welcome to the Rudd Regime Yanks: Welcome to Hell Now Purgatory. Others: G'day mate.

Oct 18, 2004, 11:54 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	I dont give a fuck if what I just said was true or whatever it was goddamn smoooooooooth! Some Kundera type shit, I really like that.

Oct 18, 2004, 05:02 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	It is comparative not realistic. Try interpreting it; don't take it literally.

Oct 19, 2004, 04:00 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	Bingo, somewhat.

Oct 19, 2004, 04:33 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Technosoul Volcanic Erupter Posts: 8,663	Idealistically everyone should have the same perfect idea. My idea about ideals is that they are indeed "If-ing goals" that we think would make life more perfect. If I had lots of money, If the world was a peace, If I had another cup of coffee, If I was famous, If the boss liked me better then that other worker, If I could find a perfect lover, If I could loose some fat, If I had another candy bar, If - if - if - and if. If had such and such everything would be alright, if the world or my surroundings were better, then everything would be all right. There is a two fold problem with such idealism and those if-ing goals however. One - when we cannot get what we yearn for we become depressed and unhappy. But if we get our "ifs" we would find they did not provide the satifaction we had expected, all that money, sex, and fame did not in fact make our life better. then we get really down in the dumps and must find another idealism to if about - "If I went to chruch more and did good deeds" - but again, in doing so we still find we are stuck with our empty feelings inside, nothing fill the void - not one idealistic goal. All that process if not corrected could lead to that final idealism which is "perhaps IF I was dead everything would be all right". The idealism of suicide. So do not think "perhaps if I won one more game of Bingo everything would be okay and then I would be happy". It is a dead end street. Ideas are different, they are thoughts you can work with, perhaps invent something, they motivate and have potentials but not for the purpose of fulfilling what we perceive as a spiritual lacking or some personal lacking. That is my insight on this topic, although idealistically these ideas could have been better put... hee hee... but perfectionism was never something I needed to desire. Technosoul.