I see the hypothetical today as utopia-like society, with excellent modern medicine, and everyone working towards the greater good of the society, and the hypothetical past as one that was nearly void of slavery, genocide, infanticide, and lacking in hatred and bigotry.
What about you guys? I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks this way, and I'm sure that there are plenty of religious folks here as well. So have at it.
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand hands clasped in prayer." - Anonymous
For the most part, people would be more rational and less gullible. Nonsensical hatreds like that of homosexuality would disappear. However, our most horrendous traits -- greed, desire for power, and fear -- would remain prevalent.
In other words, the wheels on the bus would continue going round and round, just without as many speedbumps.
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."
-- Stephen Crane
I think you're both neglecting the evolution of knowledge...as well as a variety of other factors that would have come into play.
You're assuming that the absence of religion wouldn't result in a stronger rise to other concepts like superstitions, tribal lore, magic, sorcery, wicca, etc...right now 5 billion people could be believing in nature spirits and tree nymphs...
you're also assuming, incorrectly, that people who lived 2000, or 3000, or even 200 years ago think the same way we do today...rational thought is something that ' evolves ' with man....
you're also neglecting the environment...the harsh living conditions in the past has been more suitable for the less-rational...as a philosopher once said, nothing befalls a man that nature hasn't fitted him to bear...it's quite possible that one reason why people were less rational is because it was unsuitable to be rational under those conditions..
in the end the ' perfect world ' you subscribe to would not exist, could not exist, except in your over-active imaginations.
Funny...isn't that what you accuse theists of having? Ironic.
All of that technically falls under the header of religion.You're assuming that the absence of religion wouldn't result in a stronger rise to other concepts like superstitions, tribal lore, magic, sorcery, wicca, etc...right now 5 billion people could be believing in nature spirits and tree nymphs...
Incidentally, I thought I took a rather conservative view. How is my scenario a "perfect world"?
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."
-- Stephen Crane
No, it doesn't...none of it requires a dogma or a god, any scriptures, or anything we consider religious in nature. Unless, of course, you consider a superstition of walking under a ladder to be religious...and it isn't.All of that technically falls under the header of religion.
OK, ya got me...and yes you did...and I exaggerated...you are absolutely right.Incidentally, I thought I took a rather conservative view. How is my scenario a "perfect world"?
... I'll tentatively accept that, but not 'Wicca'. Wicca is a true religion.No, it doesn't...none of it requires a dogma or a god, any scriptures, or anything we consider religious in nature. Unless, of course, you consider a superstition of walking under a ladder to be religious...and it isn't.
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."
-- Stephen Crane
I suppose technically it could be considered a religion...but the nature of Wicca is set so that each sect can believe different things and have different rules...there isn't a set dogma and there's no organization as we see in mainstream religions. Each sect is an autonomous independent entity...like the Christian Church was before Irenaeus ( circa 170AD ) decided to unify it under a universal ( catholic ) church.... I'll tentatively accept that, but not 'Wicca'. Wicca is a true religion.
Do you?Ego:I see the hypothetical today as utopia-like society, with excellent modern medicine, and everyone working towards the greater good of the society, and the hypothetical past as one that was nearly void of slavery, genocide, infanticide, and lacking in hatred and bigotry.
Chimps kill neighbours to expand territory - study - page 2 - Science - NZ Herald NewsGangs of chimpanzees kill individuals from neighbouring groups to expand their territory and seize new food resources, according to a study of the animals' notoriously aggressive behaviour in the wild.
The attacks occurred when the primates were on routine, stealth "boundary patrols" into neighbouring territory. Another researcher, Dr Sylvia Amsler, a lecturer in anthropology at the University of Arkansas, described one of the attacks she witnessed far to the northwest of the Ngogo territory. She and a colleague were following 27 adult and adolescent males and one adult female.
"They had been on patrol outside of their territory for more than two hours when they surprised a small group of females from the community to the northwest," Amsler said.
"Almost immediately upon making contact, the adult males in the patrol party began attacking the unknown females, two of whom were carrying dependent infants."
And they're not so different from us..
Do Monkeys have 'a sense of morality'?Scientists have carried out the study and found that both monkeys and apes can make judgements about fairness, offer altruistic help and empathise when a fellow animal is ill or in difficulties. What's more interesting is thatthe study found that monkeys have consciences as well as the rudimentary ability to remember obligations.
"There is enough evidence for the following of social rules to agree that some of the stepping stones towards human morality can be found in other animals," lead researcher Prof Frans de Waal of Emory University in Georgia said. The researchers came to the conclusion after carrying out experiments on monkeys and apes to see if they understood the idea of fairness.
I can see what you are coming from but looking at the most Secular societies in the world, the Scandinavian, you see a society without religion and htey have exchanged it for rational thought and love for eachother.Quote by: Diogenes
Around 80 to 90% of Swedes,Norwegians etc are secular/atheist, they enjoy recent traditional remakes such as Christian Christmas (taken from the Solstice traditon) and do not put any religious thing into it, just as a gathering and fun thing.
I think our world would be similar to theirs, less violent, more educated and loving people. You should visit them to get an idea.
The thing is, humans and great apes evolved separately from humans. Sure, they have a sense of morality and other simple social skills, but they arent humans, just similar. They have yet to invent fire, the wheel, or anything else that was a great achievement for man kind. Science developed quickly for humans, but has also been hampered by religion, due to the morals of religion. Religion also brought about a lot of the slavery, genocide, infanticide, hatred and bigotry, giving history such events like all the race wars in the bible, the crusades, the inquisition, and all the muslim holy wars. Just because these apes are similar to us, doesnt mean they are an example of a religionless society.
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand hands clasped in prayer." - Anonymous
I wasn't really suggesting that apes are an example of a religionless society; I was just saying that many of the things you seem to be attributing to religion , may well have occurred whether religion was involved or not.Ec:Just because these apes are similar to us, doesnt mean they are an example of a religionless society.
Exactly...all our baser instincts would have still existed...and more than likely the problems we attribute to religion, religion wasn't the cause but was just the excuse...and we, more than likely, would have found some other reason to do the same things...I wasn't really suggesting that apes are an example of a religionless society; I was just saying that many of the things you seem to be attributing to religion , may well have occurred whether religion was involved or not.
it's easy , now, to look back in retrospect and be a Saturday morn' quarterback and , in the year 2010, say we wouldn't have done this and that in 3567BC or 1259AD...looking at it from our point of view today...
but that's not how it works.
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