Jewish question.

[Melvyn]

Originally posted by crayola, "Most did not resist because they could not believe what was happening to them." I remember seeing films of the train stations where Jews were boarding to travel to the death camps, but not knowing it at that time. The soldiers were standing around with guns straped on their shoulders etc., but didn't look as if Jews were prisoners. What was the excuse used that lured those Jewish people, especially the mothers of children to trust Hitler ? This is what people cannot understand even to this day. Why all the trust ? What "misinformation" was being fed to the Jewish communities in Germany? Does any thing remain such as flyers, news articles, or was the press silenced by Hitler?

It is a disturbing question that always frustrated me. I did my reading decades ago, but I seem to remember that after Hitler unleashed the first waves of violence against Jews, the government starting moving Jews for their "protection". Of course no one told them they were to be killed. Even the gas chambers were presented as mass showering places.

To some extent I think Jews have not been willing to face the question of why we didn't resist. As a child when I would ask that question, it was treated by my parents as unreasonable. In other words, the actions taken against us were so unreasonable, how could one expect a reasonable reaction? (Resistance being a reasonable reaction to oppression)

I think that the German Jews were in denial. They didn't want to believe. They couldn't believe what was happening to them. They thought or hoped it would pass. My father, an American Jew always considered himself a survivor. He said it was just an accident of birth that he was in America at the time. Being born in 1941, I would fit into this category.

Being an American, I can't imagine cooperating in my own murder. But even in America that Jews have lived in relative safety is largely due to the tolarance of the majority. In Europe Jews always lived among intolerant majorities. It is not difficult for me, in America in 2004, to get feisty when I think Jews are being insulted. In Europe in the late 30's and early 40's, it would have been extraordinary. We do know their were pockets of resistance such as the Warsaw ghetto.

We have attempted to make up for not resisting by making it clear that it will never happen again.

Melvyn - Blogging at http://radio.weblogs.com/0137954/

[Nono]

Originally posted by Melvyn I think that the German Jews were in denial. They didn't want to believe. They couldn't believe what was happening to them. They thought or hoped it would pass.

I think this is probably true. From what I've heard, a lot of Eastern European Jews looked down on German Jews both before and after the Holocaust. (Authority tells you you're being resettled -- you want to believe it.) Someone once said that the tragedy of the German Jews wasn't that they were Jewish but that they were so very German.

[Melvyn]

Originally posted by StoneWT, Oh, I guess there is a reputation for intelligence and humor. The hypocrisy is the point. Many jews identify themselves as jews. No problem there. You, if you are a non-jew, are an antisemite if you say 'jew.' We had a black member of our platoon that would pull the 'we' card. Black people this, black people that. If you said 'you people' or 'yall,' you were a virtual member of the KKK.

It is really amazing to read this thread and listen to so many of you discussing Jews as if we were some bugs in a petrie dish whose behavior you didn't understand. Is there no possibility you could put yourself in the position of someone who has endured (or not survived) oppression to even think about how you would behave under similar circumstances..

Every group that has been oppressed appears oversensitive and annoying to even a sort of tolerant majority. You gave the example of an oversensitive black person. Does it also annoy you to hear women complain about being raped. Is it annoying that Italians bristle when associated with criminals? Does it upset you that Native Americans want to change the name of the Washington Redskins? Does it bother you that there are Japanese looking for reparations over the WWII internment camps? Does it annoy you that American children who are not Christian resent having to sing songs honoring Jesus Christ?

I mean who wants to listen? Who wants to face up to their own intolerance? Certainly not those of you who are regaling us with stories of the annoying complaints of Jews and African-Americans.

Of course we are oversensitive. No one has an easy life, but you have no concept of what we have been through.

I'd like to put it in perspective. In America on 9/11 we lost about 3000 people. Our reaction has been to go to war in two countries, to round up thousands of profiled Muslims, to suspend the Geneva conventions over the treatment of prisoners and on and on and on. Pretty sensitive I would say and justifiably so. One the other hand, one third of all the living Jewish people were murdered by the Nazis. And there is still rampant , if not government sponsored, anti-semitism in Europe. Maybe we don't comlain enough!

There has been a preponderance of the perjorative use of the word "Jew" when coming from non-jews . You are wrong. I have never heard a Jewish person call himself a Jew. We use the adjective form as much as possible because the noun has been stolen by our enemies. When someone asks me my religion, I tell them I am Jewish. Other words have been invented. We bristle when you use the word Jew as African-Americans bristle when you use the "N-word". You intent no longer matters. What matters is that rather than any attempt to understand the pain or to make things better you continue to condemn us.

Melvyn - Blogging at http://radio.weblogs.com/0137954/

[Nono]

Originally posted by Melvyn It is really amazing to read this thread and listen to so many of you discussing Jews as if we were some bugs in a petrie dish whose behavior you didn't understand.

Maybe. But it's probably impossible to discuss any group of people without sounding that way to members of that group ("Well, you know how the Rotarians/Bhutanese/hemophiliacs are, they..."). It'll always sound like insects.

This is the categorizing human mind at work.

Melvyn,

What in the heck are you going on about?

So much of what you complain about comes from your own mind.

"...as if we were some bugs in a petrie dish whose behavior you didn't understand."

Good lord, 'bugs in a petrie dish'? Where did you come up with this rot?

"Is there no possibility you could put yourself in the position of someone who has endured (or not survived) oppression to even think about how you would behave under similar circumstances.."

This is the sort of illogical, emotional 'begging the question' nonsense that makes people scratch their heads.

"Every group that has been oppressed appears oversensitive and annoying to even a sort of tolerant majority. You gave the example of an oversensitive black person. Does it also annoy you to hear women complain about being raped. Is it annoying that Italians bristle when associated with criminals? Does it upset you that Native Americans want to change the name of the Washington Redskins? Does it bother you that there are Japanese looking for reparations over the WWII internment camps? Does it annoy you that American children who are not Christian resent having to sing songs honoring Jesus Christ?"

These are all (almost all) bad things. It is self-evident that rape, being falsely associated with criminals, being placed in internment camps for the crime of having the wrong type of parents, and forcing kids to make an affirmative statement for a different religion (or any if atheist) are wrong.

Being a Jew (or any other religion, race, ethnicity) is neutral. As a human being, you decide how you act. You determine, through your actions and treatment of others, what kind of a person you are in human terms.

"No one has an easy life, but you have no concept of what we have been through."

Again with the 'we' nonsense. You have not cited anything you have gone through. You, and your father, never went through the Nazi concentration camps. It is not your pain. The pain belongs to the actual victims that suffered in the camps.

"You are wrong. I have never heard a Jewish person call himself a Jew.

You do realize that your second sentence has nothing to do with what I said?

Many jews identify themselves as jews. The dozens, hundreds, or possibly thousands of jews you may have come in contact with do not nullify the ones I have heard or read call themselves 'jew'. It is horribly bad 'logic'. I am surprised you used it.

"We bristle when you use the word Jew as African-Americans bristle when you use the "N-word". You intent no longer matters. What matters is that rather than any attempt to understand the pain or to make things better you continue to condemn us."

In your mind, 'jew' is as bad as 'n*gger'. You admitted, in your own words, that you do not care about what the word actually means or the intent of the speaker. Your imagination (persecution complex) is the final deciding factor.

"...you continue to condemn us."

Umm, what in the blue blazes are you hallucinating about?

You might want to check out Stephen's Guide to the Logical Fallacies. It is simple and easy to understand. It will help you hone your arguments and improve your blog.

Take care.

[Melvyn]

Thanks for your instructions on how to use logic. I wasn't however looking to you for my education. Almost entirely, your answers consisted of attacks on my logic and choice of words, but I think you are far to smart to have missed the essence of what I was trying to say. A few examples:

Quote by: StoneWT, Melvyn, "...as if we were some bugs in a petrie dish whose behavior you didn't understand." Good lord, 'bugs in a petrie dish'? Where did you come up with this rot?

How hard is it to get that I was pointing out that you(and others) are discussing people. a whole people, in an extraordinarily cold and impersonal way? Scientists look at insects in the same way as beings not the same as themselves.I think you must have got it. You chose an insult rather than an answer.

"Is there no possibility you could put yourself in the position of someone who has endured (or not survived) oppression to even think about how you would behave under similar circumstances.."

This is the sort of illogical, emotional 'begging the question' nonsense that makes people scratch their heads.
[/quote]
Is it begging the question to ask you to consider how you would behave under similar circumstances? My question was based on an assumption that you know the golden rule. Again, insults rather than answers.

Quote by: StoneWT, No one has an easy life, but you have no concept of what we have been through." Again with the 'we' nonsense. You have not cited anything you have gone through. You, and your father, never went through the Nazi concentration camps. It is not your pain. The pain belongs to the actual victims that suffered in the camps.

And you don't get that my father and those of his generation had relatives in the camps and worry that the holocaust would continue over here. And you don't get how this also scars the children. And you don't get that boys would come up to me and assume they could beat me up because I was a Jew.

Quote by: StoneWT, "Every group that has been oppressed appears oversensitive and annoying to even a sort of tolerant majority. You gave the example of an oversensitive black person. Does it also annoy you to hear women complain about being raped. Is it annoying that Italians bristle when associated with criminals? Does it upset you that Native Americans want to change the name of the Washington Redskins? Does it bother you that there are Japanese looking for reparations over the WWII internment camps? Does it annoy you that American children who are not Christian resent having to sing songs honoring Jesus Christ?" These are all (almost all) bad things. It is self-evident that rape, being falsely associated with criminals, being placed in internment camps for the crime of having the wrong type of parents, and forcing kids to make an affirmative statement for a different religion (or any if atheist) are wrong.

This was not an insult, so I guess you did miss my point. It is interesting that you consider these things "wrong". It did not occur to me that it was a question of right or wrong since I was discussing the reaction of groups to oppression.

My question is, does it bother you that these victims continue to complain about them? Does it make you pause in any way to know that these experiences have filtered down to generations who did not directly experience the pain.? Is there any way for you to understand that even contemporaries of the victims feel the victims pain and anguish.

I say these things not to whine or to continue to draw attention to myself or to the Jewish experience, but to try to explain that the results of oppression remain for a very long time, even beyond generations. Those who have not suffered ought to understand that there safety has been in large measure the result of accidents of birth. As such they ought to have a little more good will and tolerance.

Some may believe this thread was simply another discussion, but it was not. Many of those who have participated in explaining how the Jews and blacks overreact and see enemies where they don't exist thought they were just making observations. They were serving inquisitorj just fine.

I don't expect my engagement in this thread to have touched or changed anyone.

Melvyn - Blogging at http://radio.weblogs.com/0137954/

[crayola]

"I don't expect my engagement in this thread to have touched or changed anyone."

Has it touched or changed you? What are you wanting to gain from discussing the Jewish experiences? How do you think it might change things for the better?

Dubya has shown that Hitleronics hasn't really taught him anything. Infact, he is using the same strategies as Hitler in pre-empting his racist wars. Has Dubya learned anything from the Jewish experience? Did he listen to the reports of actual survivors of the Nazi Regime? Does it really matter as long as Americans are safe and secure in their own daydreams? And who cares about Muslims anyway? Do the Jews?

So, you're not going to let it happen again. What does this say to everyone else? That your only concern is covering your own asss in time of trouble? Where were YOUR people when MY people were being tortured to death? Was there just one Jew who gave a damn?

Maybe someday the hatred won't be passed on to the children. But that time is far into the future. Because people like you just can't let it go.

If you get in my face and whine about YOUR people, you won't be surprised to learn in no uncertain terms about MY people. For you have no "niche" among humanity and your cruelty is just as inhuman as the others.

You have no right to place "the Jewish experience" above that of anyone else. This is what opposes your need for restitution and recognition.

My relatives also died in WW1,and 2 and parts of them are scattered somewhere "over there". ( I hate that song). Anyways, I'm sure you get the picture of what I'm trying to point out to you here on this forum.

it's not just "the Jews" who have suffered. It's also everyone else.

[Melvyn]

Originally posted by crayola, "I don't expect my engagement in this thread to have touched or changed anyone." Has it touched or changed you? What are you wanting to gain from discussing the Jewish experiences? How do you think it might change things for the better? So, you're not going to let it happen again. What does this say to everyone else? That your only concern is covering your own asss in time of trouble? Where were YOUR people when MY people were being tortured to death? Was there just one Jew who gave a damn? Maybe someday the hatred won't be passed on to the children. But that time is far into the future. Because people like you just can't let it go. You have no right to place "the Jewish experience" above that of anyone else. This is what opposes your need for restitution and recognition. My relatives also died in WW1,and 2 and parts of them are scattered somewhere "over there". ( I hate that song). Anyways, I'm sure you get the picture of what I'm trying to point out to you here on this forum. it's not just "the Jews" who have suffered. It's also everyone else.

You know, I don;t know what I expected to get out of this dscussion other than to slap back at the inquisitor. And to try to explain, perhaps not very well, that our lives have become disorted by those experiences. And certainly I was speaking for all victims of oppression. I don't know who your relatives were, but my experience and my oppression don't rank above yours or anybody else's. I don't pass on hatred to my children. I do pass on the same "don't tread on me" attitude that the rest of the world seems to hold.

Melvyn