Supernatural religion and dishonesty....

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by Gorgo, Hey! Bible Believers. Sell everything you own and send me the money, please. Email me for the address. Matthew 5:42 "Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."

wait a moment - first you must fill out our form before you get the money, we gotta make sure you are poor or just pretending to be poor.

Here is the forum.

(1) Do you know how to fish?

(2) What is the name of the woman you wish to list as the head of the household?

(3) How many children have you made because you are not educated about family planning?

(4) How many bottles of cheap wine did you drink so far today?

(5) Do you agree that we should tax the rich people so you do not have to get a job?

(6) Will you agree to a drug test?

(7) Do you agree to thank me so I can feel higher up then you are.

(8) Would you mow my grass for 50 cents.

(9) If I give you a free ride will you also steal my car?

(10) I only have a buck in my pocket, can you make change?

(11) Oh, you have a machine in your pocket so I can use my credit card, that is nice, what is your bank account number?

(12) Arnold was once poor like you, are you interested in running for office?

Okay, fill out this questionaire and send it right in. But frist let me read to you from my bible. "the Lord helps them who help their self". Okay, soups on.

Technosoul.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Technosoul, Okay, fill out this questionaire and send it right in. But frist let me read to you from my bible. "the Lord helps them who help their self". Okay, soups on. Technosoul.

I see no problem here. He wants to help himself to your money. I think that if you ask yourself "What would Jesus do?", that Jesus would give him everything he had.

Starboy

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by Starboy, Can't figure out why anyone would want to be a Christian. They do not have the convictions of their own beliefs. Apparently because I lack a belief that I have a soul then *poof* I don't have a soul even though they are taught to believe that I have a soul. But of course their religion provides them with all sorts of oh so holy put downs for people that do not agree with them. But of course they still love you as a person but hate everything that you believe, and then they are shocked to find that people may not care for such dishonest bahavior on their part and see it as a fundamental character flaw induced in them by their own religion. Go figure. Starboy

It is a physiological disease; all convictions operate on a similar level, but the Christian. Jewish and Muslim conviction is a product of massive levels of fear, self-doubt, and repetition. It is inevitable, as long as there is one Christian, there will be the disease carrier, and it will spread and rebuke its own disease.
Those who profess deism or any pseudo-reinterpretation of the existence of God are those who are clever enough to escape the dogma, but unable to denounce their own fear of death.

[The Iconoclast]

Religions are created in order to explain the universe. As far as I am concerned, all religions strive to achieve the same thing; they all wish to find "the true meaning of life", whatever that may be. The big difference between religions is that they all find different ways to achieve this end result. I think that every religion has good messages and ideas, and this is the true value of a religion. I, myself, am a Hindu. I may not believe every line of the Vedas, but I do believe in many of the values behind these stories.

I think the purpose of a religion is to present ideas in a more digestible form. It would be difficult to convince someone that they should not steal because another person will be hurt by the crime. On the other hand, it would be much simpler to just create a supernatural being that would condemn them to hell.

So all in all, I find it irrelevent whether Jesus was crucified or Brahma created the world or whatever. Religion has a positive impact on people, as long as they do not follow it word for word. Past that point, I think you're just bringing up unnecessary conflicts.

[edit] Christianity, or at least the way it is practiced sometimes, scares me. I see these commercials of kind people donating lots of money to poor children, and I'm thinking Aww, that's beautiful. Suddenly, a minister flashes on the screen and tells me it is the work of God, and *poof*...it's all just propaganda.

I hope I don't need to delve into the topic of the BushKerry debates and how they both made occassional references to God.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by The Iconoclast, Religions are created in order to explain the universe. As far as I am concerned, all religions strive to achieve the same thing; they all wish to find "the true meaning of life", whatever that may be. The big difference between religions is that they all find different ways to achieve this end result. I think that every religion has good messages and ideas, and this is the true value of a religion. I, myself, am a Hindu. I may not believe every line of the Vedas, but I do believe in many of the values behind these stories.

I agree that providing values and "the true meaning of life" are among the traditional roles that religion plays. But I would argue that religions can also play many other roles. I do think that all supernatural religions have a major credibility gap in fullfilling this role.

I think the purpose of a religion is to present ideas in a more digestible form. It would be difficult to convince someone that they should not steal because another person will be hurt by the crime. On the other hand, it would be much simpler to just create a supernatural being that would condemn them to hell.

I think that this is what many religions have come to in the modern world and it also adds to the credibility gap of supernatural religions. It is very diffucult for a religion to teach morals if it does it dishonestly.

So all in all, I find it irrelevent whether Jesus was crucified or Brahma created the world or whatever. Religion has a positive impact on people, as long as they do not follow it word for word. Past that point, I think you're just bringing up unnecessary conflicts.

I think that religion could have an even greater more positive imact if it would drop the dishonesty.

Starboy

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by Starboy,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starboy,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Technosoul, Okay, fill out this questionaire and send it right in.  But frist let me read to you from my bible.  "the Lord helps them who help their self".  Okay, soups on. Technosoul.

I see no problem here. He wants to help himself to your money. I think that if you ask yourself "What would Jesus do?", that Jesus would give him everything he had.

Starboy[/b][/quote]

Of course I was just joking around in the above post for fun (in answer to someone else who was likewise making fun).

I doubt if somone would sell pawn their wedding ring off to get money for a poor person.

Once Mary was using some expensive oil on Jesus and his disciple objected saying "should we not sell this oil and give the money to the poor"?

And Jesus repremanded him saying "you will always have the poor with you, but I shall be here for only a short while".

And Mary continued the engagement ritual.

When Jesus said "sell all you have and follow me" he was speaking to one person, and he could tell that person had a problem about being rich, and so to liberate that person from his addiction to money he made that suggestion, for that one particular person. We should not interpret that as an over-all rule for everyone, for it is also written "seek heaven first, and all else will be added". So you would only end up with a contradiction.

Technosoul.

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by The Iconoclast, Religions are created in order to explain the universe. As far as I am concerned, all religions strive to achieve the same thing; they all wish to find "the true meaning of life", whatever that may be. The big difference between religions is that they all find different ways to achieve this end result. I think that every religion has good messages and ideas, and this is the true value of a religion. I, myself, am a Hindu. I may not believe every line of the Vedas, but I do believe in many of the values behind these stories. I think the purpose of a religion is to present ideas in a more digestible form. It would be difficult to convince someone that they should not steal because another person will be hurt by the crime. On the other hand, it would be much simpler to just create a supernatural being that would condemn them to hell. So all in all, I find it irrelevent whether Jesus was crucified or Brahma created the world or whatever. Religion has a positive impact on people, as long as they do not follow it word for word. Past that point, I think you're just bringing up unnecessary conflicts. [edit] Christianity, or at least the way it is practiced sometimes, scares me. I see these commercials of kind people donating lots of money to poor children, and I'm thinking Aww, that's beautiful. Suddenly, a minister flashes on the screen and tells me it is the work of God, and *poof*...it's all just propaganda. I hope I don't need to delve into the topic of the BushKerry debates and how they both made occassional references to God.

Hello Iconoclast

(your nickname means "image breaker". Interesting.)

Welcome to the forum and hope you stick around to share your insites from the Hindu perspective.

Technosoul.

[Technosoul]

To resolve most of these problems you could just change some of the titles you have appointed for religion. Such as the word "supenatual theists" (I do not know of a single person belonging to any chruch or organization using that name).

To call something supernatual is about the same as saying it is not natual and thus it is paranormal which opens the door for it being just an illusion. So why not just say that God is a natual source for creation and life? Would not the Mind of the Most High be as natual as our own mind?

We have evidence that humans are bigger, stonger, and (we hope) smarter then most micro-organizems, but that would not make us supernatual nor whould that make humans something paranormal (however micro bugs might think so if they were able to hold such thoughts).

The term "super" is relative to something not as super, and we see evidence of that everywhere in nature. A moose looks super big compared to a mouse. But both are natual.

If a human can be smarter then a cat then we can logically come to the understanding that something can be smarter then us - aka Super Mind that is "all knowing" which we might call God or some other religious name.

But it would be normal and natual just like we are in our more limited state of being.

A tiny cell in our toe might not be able to see the brain or comprehend it's purpose as part of our total body, but that would not mean the brain and body are imaginary or other-dimensional or a fantasy.

This is called the "fish bowl" theory. Because a fish swimming in a pool of water would have no idea what was happening in our forests on dry land, or that we have a large universe with thousands of other planets.

Science is our fish bowl, but it knows little about what might be outside of that pond.

Technosoul.

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by The Iconoclast, Religions are created in order to explain the universe. As far as I am concerned, all religions strive to achieve the same thing; they all wish to find "the true meaning of life", whatever that may be. The big difference between religions is that they all find different ways to achieve this end result. I think that every religion has good messages and ideas, and this is the true value of a religion. I, myself, am a Hindu. I may not believe every line of the Vedas, but I do believe in many of the values behind these stories.

I strongly disagree. I think religions are created to serve two purposes. The first is a central control of morality. Since the Babylonians wrote their laws down it has been nothing but a struggle for all groups to have their morals written in stone, so to speak. The second is to justify the existence of the soul. For this reason I see Plato and Jesus on the same page. People find, and I don't know why, that temporal existence is something bad. It scares people. And religion allows them to project artificial concepts of faith to reconcile with the irreconcilable. Why we exist is a question with much less importance in the reality of the world, though certainly they attempt to cover that subject as well, a religion without it, I believe, could still flourish.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Technosoul, Science is our fish bowl, but it knows little about what might be outside of that pond. Technosoul.

I agree, but people should not take too seriously the imaginings of the fish regarding what is outside the fish bowl. Sometimes the only honest thing to say about such things is "I don't know" instead of building massive mountains of fantasy and then trying to pass it off as reality.

Starboy

[Technosoul]

But fish imagine one thing which is "feed me" some food, mostly the food are bugs that come from "outside" the fish pond.

And so if our mind wants some food for thought, why not gobble up some tasty tidbits from our vast imagination of incoming ideas?

The imagination is a "fisherman of men" so to speak, trying to catch us on a hook and to pull us up out of our fish bowl of limited thought.

Which reminds of of that song "Hey Mr Spaceman can I go along for a ride".

If you do not bite the bate on the hook then the Fisherman cannot yank you up in the rapture. And so what about that?
What good is the big fish that got away? You be worthless and and no good to the Great Consumer above.

And any fish that is not consumed by a larger fish has no purpose in life, and it not worth it's salt water.

Is that not logical?

Technosoul.

[Starboy]

Technosoul, if you want to think that your soul is a fish and that it will be yanked out of the here an now to swim in heaven then no problem. If it gives you hope well then good for you. I have never said that I have a problem with this. As long as you can admit that it is no more than a hope then that is honest. I have dealt with my personal fears of death some time ago and have no problems with the possibility that the here and now is all that there is.

We appear to be going round and round with you restating the same sentiments in different ways. Do you have anything new to add to the debate?

Starboy

[Technosoul]

Yes, I have something new to add to this debate.

Although I think that imagination is important I think perhaps it should not be used for religious purposes as an imitation of truth. I think we agree on that point?

I think the big problem with the Christian religion(s) is that they will not, do not, and cannot hold a respectful debate within the secular arena. That is very fustrating to say the least because they wish to be so aggressive in pushing their ideas into society and in an attempt to convert you and I, and anyone not in agreement with them. That problem is not as big relative to most other religions, at least they provide some room for give and take. But not the Chirstians, they will never admit that another person has a more logical persepctive then theirs.

Not only that but they allow their viewpoints, in many cases, to ruin friendships, relationships, and social order in general.
They start off sounding nice, and concerned, but if you do not happen to agree they right away turn into raving hot heads who will lash out at someone as being the enemy "evil impire" or whatever.

I think people like you should try to teach them how to better communicate in a debate, being they are not about to remain silent. I think in some respects you are doing that already.

The Christians need to change their mode-of-operation, they need to make some radical changes.

And so I might change hats soon and for the sake of world peace. So watch for my newest messages, the bird will return to it's tree.... outerspace to Houston... the Eagle has landed.

Technosoul.

[Starboy]

I agree Technosoul and the first place to start is to teach them about honesty.

Starboy

[Zeebadee]

Originally posted by Technosoul, I think the big problem with the Christian religion(s) is that they will not, do not, and cannot hold a respectful debate within the secular arena. Technosoul.

"...a self deception and a lie if there ever was one.)"

"This has got to be the most insidious aspect of supernatural religion. This one thing alone makes all supernaturalists liars."

"These people should be locked up and the key should be thrown away. "

"It makes me wonder if you must be a moron to be religious."

"Is it possible for supernatural theists to think at all? I don’t think so."

"Such ways of thinking are inherently dishonest and leads to all sorts of foolery, malfeasance and delusion."

"This is an inherent property of faith and the problems it causes in people with a brain but don't know how to use it."

"Is English a second language for you?"

"Good luck to you Bob and all of the dishonest reality challenged out there where ever they may be ...."

"Please tell me that you are simply so ignorant that you are completely unawares of such Christians, otherwise I would have to say that you are being dishonest in your very post."

"By their belief in an almost two millennia tradition that started out with lies and deceptions and continued from there with an ongoing tradition of suppression, ignorance and lies on top of lies they are forced to lie to themselves..."

"Do you realize how ignorant or dishonest such a statement makes you look?"

" I am afraid that your profound ignorance of your own religion is showing."

"You are not only a liar but you appear to have a very loose grip on reality."

"You do not appear to have the intelligence to understand this."

"I can only think of the following, lies and deception, willful persistent profound ignorance, fraud and malfeasance"

"To deny this is to be a willfully ignorant idiot."

"I have never understood how theists could not see just how stupid they are when their outrageously stupid thinking is so glaring obvious."

"But of course the religious are so willfully ignorant that they have deliberately ignored that the world changed around them and refuse to admit it."

"You talk like an idiot"

"....you are not only an idiot but you are a flaming hypocrite."



Yeah, those darned Christians just "will not, do not, and cannot hold a respectful debate within the secular arena. "

Are these responses really your idea of respectful debate? And these are just a few of them.

[Starboy]

Not my words but Technosouls. I already know from long hard experience that they are incapable of behaving in society because they are a bunch of liars. As I said before, atheists may be scum but that doesn't mean that supernatural theists are not the shit below us upon which we feed. The onus is on you is to demonstrate that supernatural theists do not lie not that non-theists lie or are honest or whatever. Your posts on evolution alone amply illustrate the lies that theists tell constantly.

Starboy

[Technosoul]

I am not sure we need a ranking order about who is better then whom, or who is above and who is below status wise.

Basically humans are humans no matter who they be, and it is mainly the titles that are not honest, for those titles tell us nothing about the real person once you peel back all the pretence and whoopla.

Technosoul.

[Gorgo]

Here's a list of famous atheists.

http://www.celebatheists.com/

[Suburbanite]

I found the following to be an amazing guide to understanding God:

http://www.400monkeys.com/God/index.html

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Technosoul, I am not sure we need a ranking order about who is better then whom,  or who is above and who is below status wise.  Basically humans are humans no matter who they be,  and it is mainly the titles that are not honest,  for those titles tell us nothing about the real person once you peel back all the pretence and whoopla.  Technosoul.

I agree, but what concerns me are the supernatural religions that claim to be able to make people better people. That in essence teach them to parrot lies without ever examining what they are saying. There have been political movements and traditions in history that all would agree did not help mankind. I contend that supernatural religion is one of them. How could anyone think that a tradition that makes such liars of its followers should ever be considered the source of morals in any society let alone our own?

Starboy