A Wicca introduction

[orgaelin]

Suburbanite... if that's not Mia talking, maybe someone has hacked her account too?

[The Dunedan]

Techno:
A "witch" in the Medieval sense has nothing to do with a modern Wiccan. Nothing whatsoever. Being accused of Witchcraft back then was usually a conveniant excuse to grab some land ( see Salem ), kill off an annoying neighbor or relative ( Salem again ), or divert attention from one's own, temporal, crimes. As I've said, Wicca came into being in the mid-20th Century, and was pieced together by a man named Gerald Gardiner, using bits and pieces of various pre-Christian religions, and a healthy dose of stuff he came up with himself. This is not to say that it is irrelevant, evil or anything else; simply that it is new, and has nothing more than the most cursory connections to pre-Christian religions, and no connection whatsoever to medieval "witch" persecutions, no matter how much the Fluffbunnies insist that it does in order to make themselves feel superior.
Where did this "volcano god" stuff come from? You've apparently been reading/talking to Polynesian religious leaders, in which case you're totally correct. However, in Celtic Europe, human sacrifice was extremely common up until the 3rd Century AD in places. Roman historians ( including Julius Caesar ) describe such rituals as burning victims ( sometimes ciminals ) alive in wicker man-shaped pyres, and other contemporary writings relate that non-criminal victims were usually fed burner bread ( to honor Lugh, God of the Sun ) before being bludgeoned, strangled, and having their throats slit. Numerous bodies of people killed in just such a manner, found all over northern Europe and the British Isles, support these accounts.
Lastly, please don't presume to tell me which pages I have or have not examined. I have looked at several of these pages, two of them with my Wiccan friend, and they all fall under the "Fluffbunny" catagory. I will look at the rest when I have a moment, but suffice it to say that 2000+ years of history trumps anything "Llewelyn" came up with five years ago, especially since that history is bolstered with considerable primary-source and archeological information, unlike the vast majority of post-Gardiner Wiccan writing.

[Mia]

Originally posted by Suburbanite,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Suburbanite,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Mia, Wicca is supposedly 'white', or 'good' witchery.  There are no levels to worshiping Satan.  You cannot be just a little pregnant. You're either with God or Satan.  There is no such thing as a 'good' witch. A witch is a witch, and is with Satan. Make your choice carefully.  There is no going back if you go to far the wrong way.

is this a joke? i dont remember you saying dumb things like this[/b][/quote]

If I recall the etiquette, insulting someone's post is not debate, and not allowed.

Since you're a moderator, you might be able to correct me, if in fact I am wrong about that.

[Mia]

Originally posted by Technosoul, It it Oct. and so time to honor the anicent sects of Wicca (witchcraft) and to learn something more about our missing rib. Here is just one tiny section of a large webpage containing information about Wicca. http://www.unc.edu/~reddeer/index/00_basic...s.frameset.html It is a religion devoted to peace through undersanding the grace and the beauty of Mother Nature. Whatcha think?

Could you elaborate on the "missing rib" part, and explain the meaning, please?

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by The Dunedan, Techno; I hate to bust your bubble, but "The Burning Times" are another of those smarmy "anti-Xian" flufbunny scacred cows which don't exist. After the 9th Century, Christianity was "the only game in town" in western Europe. People burned or hanged as witches or heritics were typically accused, among other things, of poisoning their neighbors, stealing crops by magical means, etc. These crimes were, of course, total nonsense. The pre-Christian religions of western Europe were largely fertility cults, most of which practiced human sacrifice to varying degrees. Wicca was "re-constructed" in the late 1950s and early 1960s by Gerald Gardiner. It bears only the most superficial resemblances to any past religions, and trust me, the largely peaceful Wiccan religion bears nothing like a resemblance to the warlike, polytheistic Celtic religion from which so many Fluffbunnies claim descent. Any honest Wiccan will quite happily admit this; the "Peace, love, and bunny rabbits" and "Christians are stupid, I hate the world" strains which run through a lot of Wicca today are mostly the result of surly adolescants ( of whatever age ) reading one of the innumerable unresearched, unsourced, and BS-filled books on the subject which haunt Barnes & Noble. If you'd like, I can give you the email address of a practicing Gardinarian friend of mine, and he can straighten out some of this: since I have only a very cursory understanding of his Faith, he would be better equipped to answer your questions.

Greetings Dunedan, I guess I will respond to this last message in detail.

I am of the shaman belief system which is pagan and is linked to all other earth religions including wiccan.

I have no idea what a "fluffbunny sacred cow" is. You will have to fill me in on that concept before I can respond about it.

You are correct in that witchcraft was originally involved in creating medicenes that were used for treating people. They were experts when it came to using roots, herbs, plants, and other things to mix up brews for purposes of healing, and were also knowable about poisons as well. Our medical industry today is basically a current adaptation of the craft of witchcraft.
And they still make use of the anicent pagan symbol (two snakes on a tree) which you might see sometimes on the office door of a doctor.

The celtic shaman and Seer was not much different then any other earth religion found even today in the Native American community, Africa, South American Amazon, and elsewhere. It is the trend of some Christian religions to add the title "pagan" to just about every other religion such as those in Eqypt, those related to Creek - Roman concepts, as well as the Asian concepts in India, China, Buddha, and even the "New Age" movement.

Although some of our modern TV shows and movies are about teen witches who fight evil demons from the underworld that is just Hollywood, and I guess some kids have become involved in the gothic fad and all the dragons and spells and magic charms and other fantasy based mythology and the Harry Potter and the middle-ages reconstructed ideas played out in Star Wars, etc. Real wiccan webpages however often help those kids out by pointing them in more positive and logical pathways for lightworking or what have you. As do some of our modern phychology books such as "Women who run with wolves" did with the Carl Jung methodologies.

None the less Christian religion stands outside the door waiting to consume them if they can, and some of those Christians can be realisitic demons lurking in the clothing of sheep, and so one must dare to be aware of the demons of the christian dragon net, least they be abducted or abused by the satanic wrath of such people and end up like Joan of Ark, or worse yet, like Joan of Arcadia or those folks who are "touched by angels" or molested by the Preacher who is "touching" the taboo zone.

I would agree that some of the new books that are popular such as Harry Potter and those that show witches with supernatural powers is just foolishness, there is nothing really supernatural about being natual or about properly understanding nature or the spirituality of harmony and beauty. Nor about our natual potentials and talents that we often fail to fully develope and use.

Gerald Gardiner is not a leading spokesperson for Whichcraft any more then is Mr. Crawley. I doubt you would even find mention of him on any wicca webpage with current ideas and/or better historical knowledge. That would be like saying that Pat Robinson reconstructed Bible Belt fundamentalism and all new Christians follow his opinions.

Again I am not an outsider taking a look at the Wiccan belief system, so I have no bubbles to bust because I have confirmed by experience what works and does not work relative to manifestations and so forth.

If one has bad intentions then that is what comes out, if one has good intentions then that is what comes out, no matter what method of faith you wish to wrap it up in or which one you employ towards those objectives. If you plant apple seeds you get apples, that is simple pagan knowledge.

What is worse, to sacrafice the son of a virgin or the virgin? Ask any good mother and you get the same answer "take me, not my child". It is clear that it is the Christian faith that is founded upon the human sacrafice of Jesus by the will of God, and so those who live in glass houses should not toss stones by blaming such ideas on the pagans.

So how do you like those apples?

Technosoul.

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by Mia,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mia,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Technosoul, It it Oct. and so time to honor the anicent sects of Wicca (witchcraft) and to learn something more about our missing rib.  Here is just one tiny section of a large webpage containing information about Wicca. http://www.unc.edu/~reddeer/index/00_basic...s.frameset.html It is a religion devoted to peace through undersanding the grace and the beauty of Mother Nature.  Whatcha think?

Could you elaborate on the "missing rib" part, and explain the meaning, please?[/b][/quote]


Yes I can, you know about the story about Eve being the rib from the side of Adam. Well, the Jewish and Christain religions also removed women from important roles in those religions, they went out the side door and that missiing rib discovered the spirituality of wicca, and so now the Adam dominated religion must again find the missing spirituality so they can get married with the wiccan religion, and visa versa, in order for religion to be whole and complete again.

Jesus was the first one to venture back into paganism with some of his teachings where he told people to "look at the birds" and so forth. And he predicted that God would send that new spirit back into the world so that the female side called the Goddess can bring to the hard-nosed laws and strictness of the "no mercy" male "by the book" theology.

Technosoul.

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by Ken Carman,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ken Carman,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Samildanach, Satan, God, its all a load of rubbish anyway Mia. Make your choice carefully, you can either believe in fake entity number one or fake entity number two.

The more pop culture answer to this can be found in "Dogma," "Believe, no, but I have a good idea."

My own might be, "Less a belief, than the desire to explore." (Knowing, of course, when one explores watching out for bear traps is very, very important.)[/b][/quote]

I agree with Ken about exploring with an open mind....

Explore this -

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/6603/

technosoul.

[Samildanach]

I do have an open mind I was just trying to be a bit controversial to provoke argument, I just found it rather odd coming from Mia is all. Usually she has very good arguments.

[Technosoul]

Like she said, she had one bad experience with someone who claimed to belong to some cult. And has perhaps stereotyped all the rest based on that one experience or that one odd-ball in the bunch.
Mia will have to answer if that is the case or not, I am just guessing at her reasoning.

Lots of people will not accept the goddess like King Solomon did, so we will just have to pray for them. (note: we can play that game too ... hee hee).

Mia, here is a list of some Goddesses to pick from.

http://www.goddessmyths.com/

technosoul.

[Technosoul]

And or Oct occultists here is a weblink for Witchcraft.

http://www.angelfire.com/mo/cultwatch/indexw.html

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by Technosoul, Explore this - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/6603/ technosoul.

Very interesting. I spent a lot of time in upstate NY, and even lived about eight miles down the road from Moss Lake for a while. I worked there as a kid when it was a girl's camp. I don't know if those were Iroquois that took over there. In exchange for leaving Moss Lake they were eventually "given" land near Plattsburgh. Perhaps we should say "given back."

I knew about the "Longhouse," but religion-wise this should provide more specifics.

[castille]

Originally posted by Technosoul, Now I personally talked to an anicent shaman about the rap they preach about people sacrificing virgins to the volcanno God, and he said not true at all. He said the anicent cultures had capital punishment laws and if someone murdered someone else they would then justice would demand they be tossed into the bottomless pit of fire into the volcanno.

So you talked to a 1000-year-old shaman?

By the way, do you dance naked around campfires?

[Technosoul]

Most of the shamen who dance naked around a campfire are wearing what they wear all the time, nothing or not much at all (remember of National Geographic mags)?

However in modern times the nudity would prepresent openness, trust, and liberation (freedom).

Example: If you attend the ritual in a sweat londge at a Native American camp you might sit around in there with other naked people, that is part of the baptism of fire and water ritual they use. The water being poured over the fire rocks causes steam and as the place gets hot the sweat of our own body mingles with the baptism steam from the fire and water combinaton. This is a purification process for both the body and for the spirit.

The rituals and the dance is not designed for sexual purposes unless it is a "coming of age" dance for girls as part of a mating ritual in selecting a partner for marrage.

The person who knew about the volcano punishments was not that old but was from an old family who passed down knowledge from generation to generation, he even knew which plant they used to get this medicine that they would give the person before sending him off to his doom in the fire. The medicene could take away all fear and so the person would not suffer and if fact the person who did murder someone for a unjustified reason would just agree to jump as he thought that was the only way to make amends for his missconduct, which insured him peace in the next life, if he did not want to make amends he had to leave the community and go his own way as a hermit of the wilderness.

Can I talk with a 1000 year old shaman? Not like we talk to people here and now, but in the shaman way we can always have contact with the "Elders" (their spirits) which downloaded information can allow one to vision the past or whatever is not part of this time frame.
In modern science it is called "remote viewing".

Technosoul.

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by Mia, If I recall the etiquette, insulting someone's post is not debate, and not allowed. Since you're a moderator, you might be able to correct me, if in fact I am wrong about that.

I'm no longer a moderator... at least I don't think I am.

[Technosoul]

Mia, do your think, or think not, that you insulted the whole Wicca religion with your opening in-put. And can calling the Wiccan religion a satanic worshipping cult be a debate? Or just an insult based on miss-guided or poorly researched data? In other words did you employ etiquette in trying to demonstrate any logical reason why the Wicca religion is any different then the Biblical religions?

Technosoul.

[Technosoul]

Here is another post about nature religions - shaman - tribal - wiccan - medical.

It is a forum where you can check out what some modern people are talking about relative to their religious quests.

http://forums.interealms.com/shaman/

Technosoul.

[kellbing]

[quote=Technosoul
During the 1970s and later we had a lot of "teen cults" formulating around Ozzie Osborne (a better then you think educated person of the Mormon faith) and other rock band influences of the Doors and "the crazy world of A. Brown" and KISS. Etc. The "black sabbeth" groupies. I do not think those kids were all that informed about too much, but they grew up to produce Harry Potter and Star Wars, so "whatever"!
Technosoul.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I didn't realize J.K. Rowling was a big Ozzie fan.

[kellbing]

Originally posted by Inquisitor, By physical deformities, I mean degenerative traits. Such as: red hair, cross eyes, different coloured eyes, lobless ear, large birthmarks and moles etc.

WTF!!!???

I have red hair. Does that mean I am a degenerate or a witch? Wait a minute...all those red-headed people over in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, etc. must all be witches. Wow! Look out world!

Are we to assume anyone with any physical deformity is a witch? Where the hell did you come up with such hogwash?

By the way, my birthday is in October. I was born a week before Halloween. Along with the red hair and the .5 cm birthmark on my chest, that must automatically make me a witch. Funny that I never had any inclination to practice witchcraft, and that I don't even believe in magic or spells. But apparently I should take it up because the all-knowing Inquisitor says I have some of the traits. Too bad I'm not gay. Then there would be no doubt at all.

[kellbing]

Originally posted by Inquisitor, This comes from a person whose brother, orgaelin, since your brother is obviously a mentally ill sexual pervert, so you are. Because: Matthew 7 :18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Therefore there cannot be both good and bad fruits on one tree. So if one fruit is rotten so is another one. By tree of course I mean your family's genes.

What about Cain and Abel. Was Cain evil for killing his brother? Doesn't that mean that Abel must also have been evil since they were brothers? Wouldn't that make it okay for Cain to kill him since he was evil?

Your logic and that of the bible are horribly flawed.

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by kellbing,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kellbing,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Inquisitor, By physical deformities, I mean degenerative traits. Such as: red hair, cross eyes, different coloured eyes, lobless ear, large birthmarks and moles etc.

WTF!!!???

I have red hair. Does that mean I am a degenerate or a witch? Wait a minute...all those red-headed people over in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, etc. must all be witches. Wow! Look out world!

Are we to assume anyone with any physical deformity is a witch? Where the hell did you come up with such hogwash?

By the way, my birthday is in October. I was born a week before Halloween. Along with the red hair and the .5 cm birthmark on my chest, that must automatically make me a witch. Funny that I never had any inclination to practice witchcraft, and that I don't even believe in magic or spells. But apparently I should take it up because the all-knowing Inquisitor says I have some of the traits. Too bad I'm not gay. Then there would be no doubt at all.[/b][/quote]

Hey wait! Wait!!! I might actually LIKE this one! Under that kind of loose definition we might all be defined as "degenerates." Now we can all dance under the moon naked, screw anyone we want, get drunk and stoned all the time... kind of sounds like fun.

Actually, on a more seroius note, we'd probably grow bored with that... eventually... in a while... a LONG while... a very, VERY, VERY looooooooooonggg while...