The Holocaust!

[bergeron]

The Holocaust!



Hitler's Death Camps
Holocaust . . . or Inquisition?


Issue Date: January/February 1989

Dr. Alberto Rivera, ex-Jesuit priest, says "holocaust" is the wrong word. He prefers "inquisition." "The Jews have not let us forget the Nazi slaughter of their people, but no one has continued to remind us of the other four to six million non-Jews also executed," he points out.

Bohdan Wytwycky in "The Other Holocaust" documents seven million non-Jewish civilian victims of the Nazi death machine in Poland, Ukraine and Belorussia. Historians suggest that the death camps and gas chambers were used specifically against the Jews, yet no serious investigation has been directed toward this even larger number of non-Jews who were executed. Dr Rivera states that in his training as a Jesuit he was taught that the Vatican manipulated the Nazi death machine not just against Jews, but more broadly against "all heretics."


When we remember that the Jesuits were specifically established to counter the "heresy" of the Reformation and that that objective has not changed, we are constrained to examine this other group of victims more carefully. Other books published by Chick Publications such as Secret History of the Jesuits by Paris, Godfathers and Smokescreens by Jack Chick, document the Vatican's support of Hitler's rise to power. History also proves that the Vatican has used every available means to stamp out "heretics." Romanism defines heretics as anyone who does not give blind obedience to the pope. Her treatment of them is most currently illustrated by the bloodshed in North Ireland and the attempt to turn South Vietnam into a Catholic dictatorship under President Diem just prior to the Vietnam War.

In that case, the "heretics" were the Buddhists who had to torch themselves in the streets to get enough world attention to stop their inquisition. Many of them converted to Catholicism under the persecution. ("Vietnam, Why Did We Go?" by Avro Manhattan.) The most detailed evidence available that many of these World War II executions resulted from the refusal to convert to Catholicism comes from Croatia. Avro Manhattan in his book, "Catholic Terror Today," provides extensive photo and documented evidence of the inquisitional nature of the war.

Upon the disintegration of Yugoslavia, Ante Pavelitch became the leader of the independent Catholic state of Croatia under the protection of Mussolini and Hitler. Pope Pius XII also supported him with diplomacy and money. When he was firmly in control, he issued an ultimatum to the non-Catholic population (heretics): convert to Catholicism or die. Most of them were Eastern Orthodox and their churches were closed, parish documents destroyed and worshipers often arrested, imprisoned in their own churches and set on fire. Those who did not convert were submitted to unbelievable torture or were slaughtered outright.

[Compugasm]

Your opening post is the Holocaust? Wow, I can't wait for this.

[The Dunedan]

Does your oft-discredited Dr. Rivera also mention the 3 Million Catholics who died in the Holocaust? I'd bet not...this is, after all, the prat who's made his living peddling "the Jesuits are gonna kill me any day now!" stories for Jack Chick. The man's a modern-day Titus Oates.
If the war in Ireland is religious in nature, please explain men like Theobald Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmett, and Charles Stewart Parnell: some of Irish Republicanism's greatest heroes, and Protestants to a man.
Also, the "Hitler's Pope" nonsense is put to torch by the fact that Pope Pius XII bankrolled the "Schwatz Kappelle" assasination attempts from 1943 onwards. For sources, read some real history, such as "the Grabnd Alliance" by B.H. Liddell Hart and "The German General's Talk" by Albert Speer. ( written while in prison ). Additional works by Winston Churchill.
This is total crap. Next you'll probably trot out the "Jesuit Oath" supposedly written by St. Ignatius himself ( but in the language of the late 20th century ), or the Sinn Fein Oath for variety. Alberto Rivera has been roundly discredited and denounced, even by other anti-Catholic writers, and Jack Chick's juvinile cloud-kuckoo-land dreams of sinister Vatican conspiracies are unproveable, unsourced, unresearched pipe dreams. It ranks right up there with "The Da Vinchi Code," althouh "Code" is better written.

[Suburbanite]

Historians are always talking about others. There was a documentary on HBO not too long ago about the Homosexuals who died in the Holocaust. There have been movies and books up to my ass about every kind of sunnuvabitch Hitler ever hated. Weird post.

[The Dunedan]

For those of you who don't know, this Jack Chick character asserts, among other things:
1: That Catholics swear temporal Allegieance to the Pope, and are therefore ineligible for American citizenship. ( untrue )
2: The Holocaust was carried out at the behest of the Jesuits in order to exterminate "God's Chosen People." ( untrue; plenty of Jesuits died in the camps too )
3: The Inquisition was a Jesuit institution. ( Untrue: the Inquisition was carried out by the Dominicans, Jesuits frequently got in trouble for opposing it, in fact. )
4: The Pope personally ordered several divisions of Swiss mercenaries into Spain during the Spanish Civil War, in order to help out the Nazis and massacre good Protestants.
5: The Jesuits "planted" fossils hundreds of feet in the earth in order to prove the Satanic theory of Evolution.
6: Rock music is Satanic, and all master-copies of Rock albums are cursed by Satanist clerics before they are coped and distributed, the better to corrupt the young.

Chick borrows much of his quack Theology from Alexander Hislop's "The Two Babylons," which not only attempts to prove that certain similarities between Catholicism and ancient "mystery religions" prove that the two are related ( correlation does NOT equal causation ), but also "invents" a number of things about the Catholic Church which simply don't exist.
We do not worship statues.
We do not "baptize" bells, cars, or buildings.
We do not worship the Pope.
We do not worship Mary.
We do not worship Saints.
We do not owe temporal allegiance to the Pope.

[Inquisitor]

bergeron,
I personally have very serious doubts about holocaust for the following reasons:
1. There is no factual evidence apart from suvivour's accounts, which leads me to reason #2
2. I have meet many jews in my life ( some 60-70) some were good people, most were not, but every single one without exception was a pathological liar. So their witness cannot be taken seriously.
3. My own grandfather spent 4 years in a German concentration camp ( 1941-1945), when I studied about holocaust in school, I wanted to discuss it with him. He simply smiled, took the Bible and showed the following:

Jn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I asked him to explain, he replied "This is what Jesus said to jews...". I had a hard time to accept it, untill I witnessed many " home made holocausts". A jew would provoke an attack, exaggerate it to the extreme and then demand compensation.


As to the Holy Inquisition. There are certain similarities with Nazies. Both fought biological evil. However their goals were very different, Nazies sought to protect society, while Inquisition sought to save souls and protecting society was simply an additional benefit. None of them succeded of course, because their deeds were not of God.

[Nono]

Yes, bergeron's post is a weird one: starts out about the Holocaust and ends up an anti-Catholic rant. It casts a wide net to draw together a few well-documented cases on which to base a sweeping generalization. It's true that Diem was a bit of a religious nut, but history is rife with them, ain't it, and they aren't all Catholic by a long shot. Croatia too, but then look at modern-day Serbia. As for Northern Ireland, the Vatican has missed no opportunity to condemn the violence. Trying to pin that one on them is a painful stretch.

But the weirdness prize goes to the aptly named Inquisitor. Not every day we get to read a full-fledged Nazi on this board. An actual goosestepping, blödsinnredender Brownshirt. It ain't every day.

Saying that there's "no factual evidence apart from suvivour's accounts" is like saying that there's no factual evidence to prove that the Earth isn't flat. And your soulmates in the Flat Earth Society will never abandon their conviction any more than you will. No matter what, eh?

[The Dunedan]

Inquisitor:
I supposed you'd deny the evidence of all the other Catholics, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Slavs, and Dissidents who went to the camps? Or are we Unter-Menschen not to be trusted?

[m5lange1]

The Inquisitor is one like I have met before. He does not beleive the holocost even with some survivors still alive. Can you imagine how much he would disbelieve it if it happened a century ago.

Some people will just choose not to believe something and that is an end of it.

I think I shall pick the Roman Empire. I have been to Rome. I have seen the Colluseum and the Forum. So? They are large old ruins. They in no way prove all that tripe about conquering the known world.

Where is the factual evidence aside from history books? Probably those same apes who made up that stuff about Germany and the Jews. And I have not met, nor even heard of, one single survivor.
(sarcasm off).

[Compugasm]

Originally posted by The Dunedan, I supposed you'd deny the evidence of all the other...

Of course he denies it, they're ALL survivors. But his gradfather showed him a bible quote. Settles it for me, holocaust never happened.

[Nono]

Yeah, the Coliseum and that stuff were actually built, in secret, by the Etruscan intelligence services to propagate the myth of the "Roman Empire". What? You thought the Etruscans had disappeared? More the fool you! They run the world.

[Inquisitor]

But the weirdness prize goes to the aptly named Inquisitor. Not every day we get to read a full-fledged Nazi on this board. An actual goosestepping, blödsinnredender Brownshirt. It ain't every day.

I am not a Nazie, I am an Orthodox Christian.

Saying that there's "no factual evidence apart from suvivour's accounts" is like saying that there's no factual evidence to prove that the Earth isn't flat. And your soulmates in the Flat Earth Society will never abandon their conviction any more than you will. No matter what, eh?

By factual evidence I mean: results of forensic investigation, body remains, in short something tangible. I dare you to show such an evidence. No, neither " Shindler's list" nor " Pianist" are factual evidence.

Inquisitor: I supposed you'd deny the evidence of all the other Catholics, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Slavs, and Dissidents who went to the camps? Or are we Unter-Menschen not to be trusted?

My own grandfather's eye witness ( he was a Russian POW, goes against official version of holocaust).
Who exactly do you mean by we? What group you belong to? gypsy? homosexual?

I think I shall pick the Roman Empire. I have been to Rome. I have seen the Colluseum and the Forum. So? They are large old ruins. They in no way prove all that tripe about conquering the known world.

Unlike the Roman Empire which left much tangible evidence (the Colluseum and the Forum), there is no such evidence for the official version of holocaust.

Of course he denies it, they're ALL survivors. But his gradfather showed him a bible quote. Settles it for me, holocaust never happened.

The Bible quote you refer to is about the nature of the jews who are world champion liars. So anything they say should be double and triple checked for statistical possibility of it being a lie is way to high. Especially bearing in mind that jews profited enormously from holocaust.

[The Dunedan]

Inquisitor:
By "We" I mean Catholics. We were also Unter-Menschen; I am doubly so because I am of Irish descent.
As for tangible evidence: the physical remains of most of the camps, several hundred tonnes of human-remains ash ( dig a few inches under the roads leading into Belgen-Bersen and Buchenwald; they paved roads with the stuff ), hundreds of thousands of pages of primary-source documents detailing the working of the camps themselves, film footage shot by both German and Allied soldiers, primary-source accounts from on Maj. Charles Coward ( British POW mistakenly transported to Auschwitz due to a bookeeping error ), I can go on.
AS for your grandfathers experiance: of course they don't jive with the Holocaust: He wasn't in a Concentration Camp, he was a POW! POW camps were purposely kept as far away from the CC's as possible in many cases, in order to prevent word of the goings-on at such places getting out via the International Red Cross.
Is that you, Brian K? Next thing you know, we'll be hearing about the International Third Position and how the Jewish/Mason controlled British government is preparing to massacre all the Irish.

[Inquisitor]

By "We" I mean Catholics. We were also Unter-Menschen; I am doubly so because I am of Irish descent.

I am sorry for insulting you by suggesting that you might be a gypsy or a homosexual. Please accept my sincere apologies.

As for tangible evidence: the physical remains of most of the camps,

I never denied jews were kept/send to concentration camps. I deny the fact that there was a programm of extermination. I believe all deaths were natural ( in war conditions, e.g. starvation, illness, bombings ). You would probably like to know that no single building suitable to be used as a gas chamber was found in any of the concentration camps.

several hundred tonnes of human-remains ash ( dig a few inches under the roads leading into Belgen-Bersen and Buchenwald; they paved roads with the stuff ),

Proves nothing. Were they burned alive? Were they burned after being gased ( in which case chemical anylysis would reveal it)? Were they burned after dying of illness/starvation?

hundreds of thousands of pages of primary-source documents detailing the working of the camps themselves,

I would like to see a single page where jews were ordered to be gased.

AS for your grandfathers experiance: of course they don't jive with the Holocaust: He wasn't in a Concentration Camp, he was a POW! POW camps were purposely kept as far away from the CC's as possible in many cases, in order to prevent word of the goings-on at such places getting out via the International Red Cross.

Incorrect. Red cross was not available to Russian POWs. My granfather said clearly that he was in a concentration camp together with jews, gypsies, homosexuals ( much to his disgust ).

Is that you, Brian K?

I am Russian and English is my second launguage. I was under impression that this is obvious from my posts. Brian is most certainly not a Russian name.

Next thing you know, we'll be hearing about the International Third Position and how the Jewish/Mason controlled British government is preparing to massacre all the Irish.

While British government as well as American are indeed controlled by jews, I don't know much about why would they prosecute Irish. If it is the case however this would mean that Irish are very good people.

[Nono]

Inquisitor, you lack inquisitiveness. You've already made up your mind to believe what you want to. No amount of evidence -- no matter how incontrovertilbe -- would make any difference to you. Or to the Flat Earthers.

You say you're not a Nazi but an Orthodox Christian, and that the Jews are all liars. Well Christ was a Jew. So were his mom and dad. Get real, m'boy.

[m5lange1]

Sorry. If it was not for the grimness this would actually be funny.

Quoting Inquisitor

I believe all deaths were natural ( in war conditions, e.g. starvation, illness, bombings

Yea natural causes. Line a bunch of people up in front of a ditch and machinegun them, it is only natural that they will die.

But hey, Inquisitor's ancestor was a Russian POW. They did not do it to him or anyone he saw so they could not possibly have done it anywhere esle. This guy must have been in every concentration camp the German's ever built.

C'mon people. Inquisitor is full o more gas than a concentration camp oven..... He is having us on.
No one comes on a board like this with that kind of target painted on his head without looking for a bit of sport.

If I am wrong Inquisitor give me some of that factual evidence regarding the validity of your views of the bible. To use your own words.

Quoting Inquisitor

By factual evidence I mean: results of forensic investigation, body remains, in short something tangible. I dare you to show such an evidence. No, neither.....

" The Bible being used to prove itself" nor " Your Grandfather's stories" are factual evidence.

[orgaelin]

Here's my prediction: within a week this guy is going to have made everyone so mad he's going to get chucked off the site.

That's my sincere hope anyway.

Has anyone else received private messages from him in another ID mysteriously similar to my own? (His is "Orgalaelin")

I think that should be enough to get him outa here if we can prove it.

[Nono]

He should stay if he can learn to debate on a basis other than dogmatic belief in unverifiable sources (the Bible and his grandfather's personal opinions) which might mean something completely different to another individual, and on the basis of what he "likes".

[PatrickHenry]

Making people mad with your opinions is no reason for getting kicked out of volconvo. I don't like seeing anyone banned. I have had friends and enemies banned from here, but there is a sense of sadness, no matter how we mixed it up.

Don't try to get people kicked out for their opinions/biases. If the site is homogenized, who can a guy argue with? Even the ones I hate, I love...(except castille) Heh.

[Compugasm]

Originally posted by orgaelin, Here's my prediction: within a week this guy is going to have made everyone so mad he's going to get chucked off the site.

I had a similar thought after reading his introduction post to the board. He mentioned twice "I've never lost a debate" and I though, "1,2,3,4 I smell a flame war".