The Holocaust!

[PatrickHenry]

Compugasm, if you were referring to Inquisitor saying he has never lost a debate, you are mistaken. That was another new member, Iluvatar: http://www.volconvo.com/forums/index.php?s...225&#entry69766

[orgaelin]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, Don't try to get people kicked out for their opinions/biases.

I agree. I would let him be, but I still haven't cleared up who sent nasty messages in my name. I can only guess Inquisitor since he's the only one I really don't get along with (even though I argue with you, Patrick...)

If the site is homogenized, who can a guy argue with? Even the ones I hate, I love...(except castille) Heh.

(...I love you too!)

[RickSp]

The problem with any racist like Inquisitor (or anyone else who would claim that all members of any group whether racial or religious, are "all pathological liars") is that they take up space.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend booting him but ignoring him does seem like a good idea. Engaging him in debate shows a degree of respect for his ideas that I don't believe they warrant. Left alone there is a chance that he will naturally migrate to the Stormfront board or under some other rock of that sort.

[PatrickHenry]

orgaelin, we're friends...who enjoy disputation

RickSp, ever think that someone's opinions are sometimes fluid enough to change? Racism isn't Christian, and I am sure that Inquisitor will encounter that truth at some point in his life. The essence of a Christian's life is recognizing their own sin and then repentance, to allow the Spirit of God to do His work in our souls. I would recommend engagement on issues that can be debated. If Inquisitor views the Bible as a foundation, it can be cited to craft logical arguments...

[Inquisitor]

If Inquisitor views the Bible as a foundation, it can be cited to craft logical arguments...

It can indeed. Let's examine jewish question in view of the Bible. Of course theology isn't the only science useful in study of jewish question, yet let's concentrate on it for a second.

Now I don't believe the fact that Jesus as well as his Apostles were jews is relevant. History knows examples of jews who repented. Thomás de Torquemada, Spanish Grand Inquisitor or Benjamin Freedman come to mind. Let's not forget about Apostle Paul himself.
Acts 23:12 And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.
This is in exact accordance with judaic law.
"It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even before he denounces." -Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hajpiszpat jog

Bible has in fact the exact term for jews - anti christs.
1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antiChrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Of course every atheist comes under this definition as well, however it's judaic talmudism which explicitly denies that Jesus is the Christ.

Should we ignore the fact that jews accepted the guilt for Jesus's execution?
Mt 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

This words conviniently disappered from Mel Gibson's " Passions of the Christ" by the way. Have jews ( apart from few examples ) repented? Not to my knowledge.

Therefore without going much further we could see a jew in Biblical sense. Bloodthirsty anti christ who in vain accepted the greatest guilt for execution of the Christ. Ethernal enemy of Christianity.

[Nono]

Originally posted by RickSp I wouldn't necessarily recommend booting him but ignoring him does seem like a good idea. Engaging him in debate shows a degree of respect for his ideas that I don't believe they warrant.

In my view, Inquisitor is a rabid anti-Semitic in a world where there's a lot of that (and other racism) around -- usually in milder form -- including on this board. For that reason alone he should be engaged, lest he conclude that his arguments are so forceful that they've smashed his opponents and left them burning on the ground.

[Nono]

Originally posted by Inquisitor Let's examine jewish question in view of the Bible. Of course theology isn't the only science useful in study of jewish question...

Yeah, there was Rassenkunde too. That was a "science" that "proved" Jewish wickedness and inferiority. It also "proved" that all Slavs are subhuman. That means you, Inqui. You should think about your use of this word "scientific". It's also a word much loved by Marxists.

Using the Bible as a source is fine, but I can challenge its validity just as I can that of Fox News. And as we know, the Bible -- like the Koran -- can be quoted selectively to "prove" just about anything.

The fact is that Inquisitor comes from a deeply anti-Semitic, pogrom-ridden country. And he's old nobility, which means that his family lost all their fancy privileges in 1917 and have been nursing a grudge ever since. Against whom? Well against the International Jewish-Communist Conspiracy of course.

[PatrickHenry]

Inquisitor, all who are without Christ are blind and hopeless, not just Jews. And Jews who receive Him are justified by His sacrifice. Those who called for Him to die and vocally accepted guilt for His innocent death are no more guilty of it than you or I.

This is why the Father loves me: because I freely lay down my life. And so I am free to take it up again. No one takes it from me. I lay it down of my own free will. I have the right to lay it down; I also have the right to take it up again. I received this authority personally from my Father." (John 10:17-18)

Jesus came into this world to redeem us all back to the Father, so that we can live eternally with Him. He freely gave up His life and the Jews are not more guilty than anyone else. It was OUR SIN, (the sinners of this earth, everyone) that necessitated His sacrifice. Without His death and resurrection what hope would we have of an eternal future? To blame the Jews is to be misdirected from the true enemy of the world, Satan.

Jesus fulfilled God's plan for our redemption, showing how much He loves us, that He would even die for us...

These arguments should properly be in a new thread, because this one is about the Jews mass murdered by the Nazi death machine.

[Inquisitor]

The fact is that Inquisitor comes from a deeply anti-Semitic, pogrom-ridden country.

I wonder why would it be " deeply anti-semitic"? Perhaps there is a reason for it? Let's see.

I hope you have heard of 1917 revolution? This event lead to the bloodiest government of all times. Number of human casualties are in 100 million. Let's see what eye witnesses had to say about this event.

"Winston Churchill, for one, warned in an article published in the February 8, 1920, issue of the London Illustrated Sunday Herald that Bolshevism is a "worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality." The eminent British political leader and historian went on to write:

There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews. It is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate, Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd), or of Krassin or Radek -- all Jews. In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combatting Counter-Revolution [the Cheka] has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses."

David R. Francis, United States ambassador in Russia, warned in a January 1918 dispatch to Washington: "The Bolshevik leaders here, most of whom are Jews and 90 percent of whom are returned exiles, care little for Russia or any other country but are internationalists and they are trying to start a worldwide social revolution."

The Netherlands' ambassador in Russia, Oudendyke, made much the same point a few months later: "Unless Bolshevism is nipped in the bud immediately, it is bound to spread in one form or another over Europe and the whole world as it is organized and worked by Jews who have no nationality, and whose one object is to destroy for their own ends the existing order of things."

Even if holocaust was responcible for 6 million jewish lives, I can hardly blame Germans for their desire to avoid fate of Russians.

And he's old nobility, which means that his family lost all their fancy privileges in 1917 and have been nursing a grudge ever since.

I tell you exactly how these " fancy privileges" were lost. In 1918 my great grandfather was arrested together with his entire family. After months of torture ( to make sure he surrendered all valuables) he was executed together with his wife and three children ( boy 16, boy 14, girl 11). The only one to survive was my grandfather who was 8 at that time. Do I have to specify nationality of the executioners? Perhaps you would think that jews are incapable of such deeds?

Well they had no problem executing Tsar and his family.

"This ritual action symbolized the end of centuries of Russian history, so that it can be compared only to the execution of Charles I in England or Louis XVI in France. It would seem that representatives of an insignificant ethnic minority should keep as far as possible from this painful action, which would reverberate in all history. Yet what names do we meet? The execution was personally overseen by Yakov Yurovsky who shot the Tsar; the president of the local Soviet was Beloborodov (Vaisbart); the person responsible for the general administration in Ekaterinburg was Shaya Goloshchekin. To round out the picture, on the wall of the room where the execution took place was a distich from a poem by Heine (written in German) about King Balthazar, who offended Jehovah and was killed for the offense."

I am not trying to complain, to die for Russia is the duty of every noble ( part of the price of that " fancy privileges"). Yet execution of women and children is a lot harder to forgive.

In short jews are responcible for the worst massacre in the history of humanity. Their cinical attempt to hide it behind their suffering from Nazie's is sickening. As I said even if Hitler did kill 6 million jews it pales compared to what jews did. Also note, unlike jews ( who demand compensation for holocaust), I never recieved a single cent in compensation for my murdered family or fortune ( approx $200 -400 million) that was stolen from me.

To blame the Jews is to be misdirected from the true enemy of the world, Satan.

Aren't jews in Jesus's own words children of the devil?

Jn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[PatrickHenry]

Inquisitor, you make the mistake of equating the Jews, an ethnic group, with the Bolsheviks, a terrorist political movement. This is a logical fallacy. The only way your postulate to be true is for the two groups to be completely congruent. viz. All Jews are(or were) Bolsheviks AND all Bolsheviks are(or were) Jews. This has not been proven and to my knowledge cannot be proved.

Your reference to Jesus statements have been misconstrued in your post. True, He was speaking to an unspecified group of First Century Jews in occupied Jerusalem. He did accuse that group of being controlled by their father, the devil. But He referenced the fact that their pride in being Abraham's descendants was false pride. That they were in need of salvation as much as anyone else. Our ethnicity does not make us more(or less) worthy in the eyes of God. He said that their true Father was evil because of their behavior: they were trying to kill Him, an innocent man.

The whole ethnicity question is a red herring in the argument on the need we as humans have regarding salvation. Who our ancestors were does not qualify or disqualify us for inclusion in God's Kingdom. Actually Jesus primary ministry was to the Jews of His day. We Gentiles are getting a free ride on God's mercy in sending the Savior of the entire world as a Jew. That's OK with me. I need a relationship with God and Jesus has made a way for me to be a part of God's Kingdom . I had no way to gain His favor other than through Jesus and my trust in Him. The same goes for Jews. There are Jews who have received Jesus as Savior and Lord. They are my brothers and sisters. Are they yours, too? Or do you reject them because of their ethnicity?

To fault your skepticism to the Jews as a group does not mean I approve of the doings of the Zionists and the Zionist state, Israel. Similarly, I could say of the Russian Mafia that does such evil in my nation, the USA: Russians should be condemned. But that is a faulty analysis of the problem. It is not the ethnicity that is the problem, but the criminality. Russians are not evil, neither are the Jews.

I still think we are hijacking this thread and these discussions belong elsewhere...

[Waychel]

The very people complaining of Inquisitor for being closed-minded and having views founded upon stereotype are asking for other regulars of this board to ignore everything that he has to say. Are you not being "closed-minded" of the fact that Inquisitor may have valid opinions or views on the many issues discussed on this board with no relation to the holocaust?

Who's being stereotyping and closed-minded now?

[Nono]

Originally posted by Waychel Who's being stereotyping and closed-minded now?

Well, Inqui for sure. I said he should be engaged, not ignored. PH has done that nicely just now. I would add that the Russian mafia that's so destructive in the US and Western Europe is most destructive of all in Russia itself. But this doesn't somehow prove that the USSR should be brought back.
Yet that's the sort of reasoning Inqui is indulging in by implying that Bolshevik brutality was a first for Russia. On the contrary, in many ways the Bolsheviks modelled their system -- gulag included -- on the Czarist system.

Anyway, back to the thread. Anybody who wants to suggest that historians have got the holocaust all wrong has a duty present arguments one hell of a lot better than Inquisitor's.

[Inquisitor]

Inquisitor, you make the mistake of equating the Jews, an ethnic group, with the Bolsheviks, a terrorist political movement. This is a logical fallacy. The only way your postulate to be true is for the two groups to be completely congruent. viz. All Jews are(or were) Bolsheviks AND all Bolsheviks are(or were) Jews. This has not been proven and to my knowledge cannot be proved.

I have never stated that ALL bolsheviks are jews, nor that all jews are bolsheviks. Yet, jews are very overepresented among the bolsheviks. The fact that jews made up 90% of bolshevik government cannot be conviniently ignored.

Your reference to Jesus statements have been misconstrued in your post. True, He was speaking to an unspecified group of First Century Jews in occupied Jerusalem. He did accuse that group of being controlled by their father, the devil. But He referenced the fact that their pride in being Abraham's descendants was false pride. That they were in need of salvation as much as anyone else. Our ethnicity does not make us more(or less) worthy in the eyes of God. He said that their true Father was evil because of their behavior: they were trying to kill Him, an innocent man.

Bible is deeply symbolic book. Every word and sentence is there for a reason. If the Bible says jews, then jews it is. No I am far from accusing every single jew, because Jesus also said:
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Yet most jews don't continue in his word in fact most jews reject him and organised jewry most certainly does.

Similarly, I could say of the Russian Mafia that does such evil in my nation, the USA:

Would you be shocked to learn that "russian mafia" are in fact mostly " russian jews"?

Russians are not evil, neither are the Jews.

Some Russians are very evil indeed. And some jews are very good. I am not making absolute statements. I am saying that a jew is much more likely to be evil than any other ethnicity on this planet.

Yet that's the sort of reasoning Inqui is indulging in by implying that Bolshevik brutality was a first for Russia.

Incorrect, I sad it was first for humankind.

On the contrary, in many ways the Bolsheviks modelled their system -- gulag included -- on the Czarist system.

Extremly ignorant statement.
"While the Soviets - along with many in the West - have stereotypically portrayed this era as little more than an age of arbitrary despotism, cruel suppression and mass poverty, the reality is rather different. While it is true that the power of the Tsar was absolute, that only a small minority had any significant political voice, and that the mass of the empire's citizens were peasants, it is worth noting that Russians during the reign of Nicholas II had freedom of press, religion, assembly and association, protection of private property, and free labor unions. Sworn enemies of the regime, such as Lenin, were treated with remarkable leniency." Edvard Radzinksy, The Last Tsar (New York: Doubleday, 1992),

Funny you should mention Gulag.
According to a recent book written by two Russian authors, N.K. Petrow and K.W. Skorkin (Title: "Who led the NKWD, 1934-1941?" Publisher: N.G. Ochotin, A.B. Roginskij, Verlag Swenja, Moscow, 1999) "Even in absolute numbers, the Jews...made up the largest group in the leadership of the Stalinist Secret Police. The Russian myth of the "Jewish NKVD" thus had a factual basis. The Nazis, who knew precisely of these facts, used it for their propaganda purposes of the Jewish-Bolshevik terror regime that they felt obligated to destroy.

They then list the proportions of various ethnic groups in the Soviet secret police:

Jews: 39 %

Russians and Ukrainians 36 %

Latvians, Germans, Poles 14%

Others 12%

This is particularly significant since the Jews made up only 1% of the Russian population!"

[RickSp]

Are you not being "closed-minded" of the fact that Inquisitor may have valid opinions or views on the many issues discussed on this board with no relation to the holocaust?

You are joking right? I suspect Inquistor is a long and running joke. Just one example:

Some Russians are very evil indeed. And some jews are very good. I am not making absolute statements. I am saying that a jew is much more likely to be evil than any other ethnicity on this planet.

If he isn't joking, then he is both a racist and as dumb as a sack of hammers.

And which opinions of his are you suggesting are "valid"?

[Inquisitor]

Now, talking about actual evidence for holocaust.

Have anyone of you heard of Historical revisionism? I mean really had read a single book or even article by revisionists?

I bet you have all heard about them " holocaust denial! nazies! hitlers ressurected!"

Yet, if one separates reason from emotion and actualy looks at their argument ( not interpretation of their argument), one would at least ask some question.

Here is the link, all the evidence anyone needs is there.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p-99_OKeefe.html

Look it up if you pride yourself to be a free thinker. I know from personal experience how hard it is to overcome propaganda condtioning. Yet if one hears something on TV, reads about it in the papers, forced to learn about it in school, it has all the traits of propaganda.

Most certainly having views consistent with official propaganda will make your life easier and much less conflicting. Just don't forget " easy ways lead to hell".

[PatrickHenry]

RickSP, I don't see Inquisitor as a joker. I think he is sincere and has a number of valid points.

Inquisitor, I am pleased to learn that you are more suspicious than convinced of Jewish depravity. I find fault with them as much as any one who is not an active anti-Semite. Yet I also understand that our Bible and much of the tradition of doing good have been a heritage of the Jews. The Law required that the land be returned to its owners at the Jubilee year. Usury was prohibited. Alms giving was proclaimed. God's love for the world was announced.

I didn't see any of your evidence for the Jews being the basis of the Russian Mob, but maybe that reference was ill-chosen. Let's take the Italian Mafia. Do the Italians all get labeled as gangsters for the criminal proclivities of this small group of wrongdoers? I can find plenty of Jews doing evil at the top levels of the media and the US administration. This doesn't tar the good hard-working, humane Jews in my community with that same brush. Why focus on ethnicity? Concentrate of correcting the wrongs and leave the race baiting for those who are haters. I somehow sense that you are not one...

Mods, what about a split for this topic?

[m5lange1]

Inquisitor I am not making absolute statements. I am saying that a jew is much more likely to be evil than any other ethnicity on this planet.

PH Concentrate of correcting the wrongs and leave the race baiting for those who are haters. I somehow sense that you are not one...

Regarding the inquisitor's statement. Please provide evidence regarding Jews being MORE likely to be evil than ANY other etnicity on this planet.

Regarding PH's statement... In light of the first statement your logic somehow alludes me.

[PatrickHenry]

m5, I assume you mean "eludes." And it was not logoc, but an opinion which has so far been somewhat unsubstantiated...

[Nono]

Revisionists are fine. Their views should be assessed according to the same criteria as any other scholarship. I for one am not allergic to revisionism (which does no more or less than challenge the conventional view). The revisionist analysis of the Pearl Harbor attack, for example, is certainly closer to the truth than the classic (my view).

Figures can be quibbled about. And the Great Mystery of the Missing Wannsee-Conference Smoking Gun can be puzzled over. And the fact that the holocaust is misused by some to justify Israeli abuses is well known. But to deny that a colossal and industrially systematic massacre took place of Jews, Gypsies and other Lebensraum-crampers is to wilfully ignore massive evidence while getting down on one's hands and knees to search for this or that speck of dust.

To bring things down to an individual level, many years ago I talked to a man who had been a photographer in the Canadian army during WWII. He was one of the first Allied troops to enter Bergen-Belsen. Bergen-Belsen wasn't even an actual "death camp". But what he described seeing there is plenty horrifying, to put it mildly. He was just this guy, you know, and telling me what he'd seen. He had no ulterior motive that I can imagine. To me, that kind of thing is perfectly valid evidence. It wouldn't convince David Irving, but it does me.

[castille]

I'm sick of the Holocauste. It happened 50 years ago, let it go.