Is college education for all a good idea?

[combatrhino]

I am posting this here because I think it's a much more philosophical question than anything else. my question is essentially this: do you believe every individual should have a college education? I do NOT mean "do you believe everyone should have an opportunity at a college education." I'm going to see what people say before I write what I think, to test the waters... it seems like this question should be addressed when we see education standards constantly increasing with obviously good intentions but no recognition of the consequences.

[ComradeRed]

For what purpose?

[Technosoul]

Yes I think that collage education should be tax funded so that everyone can gain an education above what the 12 grade offers.

Not mandatory education however, and it the student cannot maintain average grades he cannot continue wasting taxpayer money.

This would be paid for (just adding in a little political part) by the money now used by the Army or the military that promises people a paid for education if they join up. And so the idea you put out as possible would do the same thing only no one would be forced into the Army to attain those benifits, we would drop the military middle-man part and offer it directly.

But also, I feel not everyone is cut out for brain work, and so if we fund programs towards jobs in technology, medicine, etc we should also allow that money to be used by people who want to learn about construction work, or how to drive a truck, or how to operate a fork lift or heavy equipment, (and stuff now offered by trade schools that you cannot learn at a normal collage).

Needless to say such programs would have to be cost effective, just because something is tax funded we should not allow the educational systems to raise the cost of education to the max where it breaks the national budget, while at the same time we cannot expect good teachers to suffer low wages if they are going to upgrade the over all wealth potentials of their students.

Those would be my opening remarks.

Technosoul.

[Zeebadee]

Originally posted by combatrhino, ...it seems like this question should be addressed when we see education standards constantly increasing with obviously good intentions but no recognition of the consequences.

Education standards are going up? What country are you from?

[bishop]

it's in the public's best interested to have an educated populace. however, using britain as an example, education does not always translate into gainful employment.

ask any philosophy student if they expect to be banking after they graduate.

money aside, what's bad about having a well educated public? there is often MUCH more to education than money - although in a society dominated by money people are led to believe that dogma.

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by combatrhino, I am posting this here because I think it's a much more philosophical question than anything else. my question is essentially this: do you believe every individual should have a college education? I do NOT mean "do you believe everyone should have an opportunity at a college education." I'm going to see what people say before I write what I think, to test the waters... it seems like this question should be addressed when we see education standards constantly increasing with obviously good intentions but no recognition of the consequences.

Everyone in America should have the equivalent of a college education by the time they finish High School, so yes.

[bishop]

good luck trying to accomplish that in a public school..

[Nono]

I agree with bishop that it's in the public interest to have an educated populace. In a democratic system that's obvious.
As for university level, Technosoul is right that not everyone is cut out for it. A lot of people should be spared the agony.

But from what I've read most Western countries show rising levels of functional illiteracy. So I'll confine my remarks to opining that every individual capable of it should be literate, i.e. able to read labels in supermarkets, public signs, simple newspaper articles, etc.
Achieving that would be a huge step forward.

[Technosoul]

Nona,

I hope they would not have to complete collage to read simple newspaper articles or to read labels in a store.

I recall when I was at a trade school for photography (instead of going to collage) and we had some students from another country who went shopping and were buying cans of dog food thinkig it was canned beef for human consumption. It was kinda funny, but we set them on the right path.

Always of interest is the educational system in Japan and how they place such importance on it, and it seemed to have raised the level of their productivity and status.

Now I think one important aspect of education is simply to learn the tools needed to communicate, reading and math. Knowledge cannot be communicated if one cannot read the knowledge. Once the student is comfortable with those tools (knowing how to read for example) then it would be easy, with the vast resources we have, for a student to self-educate on their own. We have libraries, the computer database, etc. where one can study and become an expert on just about anything, in a relativly cost effective manner.

We have however two main problems for that.

(1) - The student must be self-motivated. Self motivated means they find something they are inwardly interested in and because they love that interest, they painlessly explore it in knowldge data systems.

I do not think our educational system fully understands the concpets of self-motivation or how to direct youth to act upon that natual ablity. For reason I could outline later if anyone is interested.

(2) Our work environment does not respect self education when they want to hire someone to do a job, or when a bank wants to back someone towards starting their own occupational effort.

Winging it on your own is taboo with those in our culture who want to control the economic systems and progress via test results that have an objective of creating cookie cutter conformity to the standards they wish to maintain as operative. Thusly creative evolutions of progress are often sufficated by who want to stay the conservative course of familar environments for doing things.

Often, the philosophy of self-interest resulting in self motivation towards self education is hampered by the alternative goals of being able to get the best job that pays the most money, with attention on materialistic manifestations instead of the unfolding of one's personal potientals for talent and/or mental developement.

Is anyone hip what I just related?

Technosoul.

[dalin]

I agree with some of those points you made Tech.

Concerning formal education vs. self-education, I think some employers do take into consideration the prospects' field experience. Management/business is one field in particular where experience can truly outweigh a formal degree.

The problem is that self-education is harder to quantify and compare. If you've got two graduate candidates, one from a community college, and another with a 4.0 from Harvard, it's a bit of an easier choice who to interview first.

As for college education for all? I would love that, maybe I could start paying some of the principal on my school loans

Seriously though, why not (minus the insane cost)? It would certainly benefit the society, maybe not entirely monetarily, but in the general quality of living. Exploration of the arts, greater invention/innovation, etc. would certainly be byproducts.

[combatrhino]

What happens to our labor work force when everyone gets a college education? I'm in college right now and I sure as hell wont leave here for a low-wage job.

[Compugasm]

My system is self-education. Tuition is free, I design my own major. It's really about solving problems. I keep looking for creative ways to learn what I want to know. My only regret is that I didn't start earlier.

There were no programs covering the things I wanted to learn. How to build an organization, raise money, draw a tree, create a database, buy a house, spot a scam, or figure out what's important. Sure, there are classes on those subjects. However, what degree is that? Can I take the class at 3am? What real knowledge will be doled out in small amounts over the semester?

Some professions you can't persue without college. I understand that. My ocupation is web developer. It requires Renaissance level knowledge of fonts, software, coding practice, computer languages, hardware configurations, operating systems... My curriculum changes as new opportunities arise. Formal school, simply can't provide that kind of ability because you have to learn it as required. Linear study will outdate your knowledge before it can be used. I seek out mentors. Internet research. Create lists, make charts, and undertake the most ambitious projects I can think of.

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by Compugasm, My system is self-education. Tuition is free, I design my own major. It's really about solving problems. I keep looking for creative ways to learn what I want to know. My only regret is that I didn't start earlier. There were no programs covering the things I wanted to learn. How to build an organization, raise money, draw a tree, create a database, buy a house, spot a scam, or figure out what's important. Sure, there are classes on those subjects. However, what degree is that? Can I take the class at 3am? What real knowledge will be doled out in small amounts over the semester? Some professions you can't persue without college. I understand that. My ocupation is web developer. It requires Renaissance level knowledge of fonts, software, coding practice, computer languages, hardware configurations, operating systems... My curriculum changes as new opportunities arise. Formal school, simply can't provide that kind of ability because you have to learn it as required. Linear study will outdate your knowledge before it can be used. I seek out mentors. Internet research. Create lists, make charts, and undertake the most ambitious projects I can think of.

One thing that some people need besides the webpage being designed is for that person to maintain it for them, adding new things and removing what they no longer want. As well as knowing enough to fix problems that might arise as a support service. And so if one designs a few webpages for a big outfit and do the upkeep and maintanence that is a full time job. Like keeping up the CBS webpage everyday with the lastest news, photos, etc. Whew.

Technosoul.

[bishop]

i agree compugasm, but the quality of your education is also judged by other people - i.e. people who will determine how much you should be paid, etc..


also, this might be somewhat off-topic, but it's relavent.. not everyone is intellectually capable of completing a college education. i'm sure everybody here can think of at least one person who fits that bill. the question is, if you're inherently not capable of handling college education, but you're still willing to work for a living, shouldn't it be a fundamental right that that person can have a decent life for themselves? (i.e. that they don't have to live in poverty.)

[Compugasm]

Originally posted by bishop, shouldn't it be a fundamental right that that person can have a decent life for themselves? (i.e. that they don't have to live in poverty.)

Absolutely NOT! Classism, racism, any other isms you can think of. Stupid Mexicans, stupid white people... stupid white mexicans. You've suggested, education isn't so easily quantifiable. I think we both interpret differently what standards by which poverty is judged. What will you garuntee me? My ancestors were slaves. Ok, I'm ranting and off topic. My answer is still no.

[macnpat]

Originally posted by combatrhino, I am posting this here because I think it's a much more philosophical question than anything else. my question is essentially this: do you believe every individual should have a college education? I do NOT mean "do you believe everyone should have an opportunity at a college education." I'm going to see what people say before I write what I think, to test the waters... it seems like this question should be addressed when we see education standards constantly increasing with obviously good intentions but no recognition of the consequences.

In my opinion, it is not the Education in itself which is good. It is the free society where any person can attempt to achieve their goals academically.

For those who succeeded it was a good idea. For those who do not succeed, there are many paths in life to take equally worthy to academia.

[bishop]

compu.. your response went on an instant tangent. i agree that education isn't so easily quantifiable.

my question is whether/not those who aren't intellectually adept should be subjected to poverty - even if they're willing to work for a living. and, fyi, i'm not framing this question behind any sort of "ism". i sense a knee-jerk to what is perceived as being a rant on socialism - don't be so reactionary especially since i haven't made any suggestions of a solution.

i'm talking about poverty in america, comparing how people in america live. (i wouldn't compare american poverty to african poverty because it's irrelavent imo.)

[Compugasm]

Originally posted by bishop, compu..  your response went on an instant tangent.... my question is whether/not those who aren't intellectually adept should be subjected to poverty - even if they're willing to work for a living.

hehehe, yeah it did go off. But, I can tell you, I fit into the category you describe. As a matter of fact, at the end of next year, I'm confiring upon myself an honorary doctorate cause I'm so smart.

In my particular case, the argument is, standard education only proves I sat in a seat for X number of years, and guessed correctly 65% of the time. Not solving real world intangibles such as translating someones idea of "a perfect website" into a physical reality. Or I can negotiate the price of web services with a client, or work under a deadline. Now, give me my money bishop.

I know that isn't the best example, but I'm trying not to be too technical and loose everyone. Will you be paying me in cash?

[bishop]

heh.. hypothetically, no. i won't be paying because i am a college grad myself and i'm biased towards others who've put forth the effort to earn their own degrees. plus, since you have no formal education, i have a hunch that you're probably exaggerating what you're truly capable of doing for me.

[tivodan1116]

It would be easy in many states to fit the first year of college into what is currently high school and allow students (who want to) to take advantage of it.

Where I live, high school seniors often finish the majority of their required courses by their junior year. Then, during senior year, they often have both "late arrival" and "early dismissal" and end up spending about 3 hours a day in the school building. Meanwhile, even the students and teachers who are there for the "whole" day leave at 3pm and the nice buildings we have paid for with our tax money end up hardly used.

Personally, I would have welcomed more challenge in high school. I was really bored by what I faced. My senior year I had two study halls back to back at the end of the day. I used the time to work on my debate speeches and our school newspaper. If I didn't have work, I went home.

Does everyone deserve the chance at a college education? yes. But also remember that 50 years ago we did this concept, expanding from 8th grade to high school, and look at the value of a high school diploma today in terms of getting a job. Would we want the same thing to happen to a baccaluareate degree? (It already has to a large extent)