Why do I anti-preach?

[orgaelin]

As may be apparent, I do a lot of preaching against the biblical God and Jesus. Why do I do it?

I feel a need to raise this topic because I have been a bit strong lately in my aggressive responses to peoples claims that their god is a good one.

I want people to know that the worst thing I could ever do is sow even a tiny seed of doubt in the fields of your faith. I would hate myself for that.

I do not seek to de-convert you. I do not want you to doubt your own beliefs (though I doubt you ever will!) and I do not want to shout at you.

Obviously when I get carried away there is some emotion fueling my fire. This is resentment, because I resent your god for not being what I feel he should be. I resent the bible for being inconsistent and self-contradictory. I resent Jesus for claiming so much yet being so absent from the world. I resent my childhood churches and schools for teaching me so much that the bible doesn't even say. I resent the fact that this religion of yours has evolved over thousands of years (even before Christianity) and still it is not able to convince that there is a god worthy of my... worthy of even my respect.

I do not believe most of what the bible says, though I recognise there is a lot of actual history contained within it. However, if I *did* believe it, or if it turned out to be all true, I would be resentful all the more.

I would resent God for being so cold-blooded and ruthless and vengeful and angry and judgemental and unsupportive and such an absent parent.

So whether your beliefs are true or not, I resent that I cannot find happiness or even contentment in them.

My resentment is therefore not for you, but for your god, and the authors of your bible. When I argue with you, I do so only because you claim to defend your god, and I cannot speak to him of my complaints because he'll either not listen or he'll listen and danm me to hell for it!

There's a question somewhere in all this:

Is it right? I mean here on the board we have people who believe, and people who absolutely do not believe. What are we doing? Bantering back and forth to give our respective viewpoints... I know I for one have never come even a fraction closer to accepting the views of the believers, and I am in doubt that they have failed to come closer to my own views too.

So why do we do it?

If you wont change your mind and I wont change mine, what's this all about?! Is there something else we get from it? I suspect all we do is strengthen our *own* beliefs?

~ Org.

[Zeebadee]

"If you wont change your mind and I wont change mine..."

Are you really admitting to being so closed minded that nothing could change your mind on this subject? Why do you even bother to post anythign about religion or God then?

[Nono]

Originally posted by orgaelin Here on the board we have people who believe, and people who absolutely do not believe. What are we doing? Bantering back and forth to give our respective viewpoints...

Well, some of us here are good god-fearing agnostics, striving to remain open-minded on these matters. I for one have nothing spiritual to sell to anyone.

[orgaelin]

Sorry zeeb, I didn't mean to imply that.

I am always open to being converted. To some extent that is why I am here. I *want* to believe.

I'm just saying no-one has helped me out with that yet.

[Zeebadee]

Originally posted by orgaelin, I am always open to being converted. To some extent that is why I am here. I *want* to believe.

Aha, an openness to being converted implies that you have doubts about the non-existence of God. A person with such a doubt can't be a real athiest, can he? Of course, I haven't seen you make the claim that you are, so my post may not be directed at you, but at others that do make the athiest claim.

[orgaelin]

As I read your last post, Zeeb, I was getting all fired up to reply... and then you realised what I would have said, which is that I don't claim to be an athiest!

So why am I here if you're going to write my replies any way?!

[The Black Flag]

Well, I'm not sure I can be a help to you on being converted, but I'll try and tell you why I believe, if it helps.

I was raised all my life as Christian, but I would have long forgotten it with how much I changed had I not heard of some very weird things happening to peoople of the faith. I've heard of cancer vanishing with a renewl in faith. I've been told of one man who had aids, he was losing it all, then he gave his self fully to Christ, then, BAM, aids vanishes without a fucking trace. I've seen people be ministered to, be touched, pass out, then come back next sunday and share how they were miraculously healed of some ailment that wasn't going to go away on it's on, or with medicine. Diabetes, BAM, gone. I'm not sure if this happens with other religions, but I know it's happened with mine. My friends critisize me for believing in God, saying he's done all these horrible things to them; My only response: To many things are blamed on God, what men did of their own free will. I've been backstabbed by lots of people, I've been put down by lots of people, but when I pray, and strengthen my own personal relationship with God, I'm not back stabbed, I'm not rediculed for how I look (like so many "Christians" have done to me), I'm not put down, insulted, pushed away, ignored...but I am held up. WHen I pray strongly, I feel a calm feeling come over me, I feel a love that will never go away.

Alot of people say "If GOd is so great, then why does he let all the bad things in the world happen?" God doesn't *let* things happen. He isn't here to stop you from doing something. God doesn't want a world of autonomatons (check my spelling on that), any more then we do. Would you want your gf\bf to love you because you make them, or love you because they want to. I could stop my gf (hypothetical) from cheating on me by keeping her away from guys, but there would always be the fact that she would. So, why not let her be around guys, then feel really loved when I find that she doesn't? And if she does cheat on me, oh well, atleast I won't have a gf faking her feeelings to me. (i hope I was coherent enough in all of this)

[Nono]

Yes, there definitely have been "miracle" cures. A doctor friend has related some she's witnessed herself. But not all are religious in nature, and even where one follows a religious conversion, who says it's due to divine intervention? Psychosomatic effects are poorly understood, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're magic.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Faith is different to everyone, some people have a blind faith, I think thats dangerous. Some people have a strong faith, but question it, as I do, sometimes daily. I think thats healthy.

Some people have little faith and switch churches/religions often, thats just odd....

Some people have no faith, and those are the ones I pray for.

Some people hate those with faith, and I pray for them too.

Its good that there are those that question the faith of others, its a test for both the faithful, and the faithless beliefs.

Its all good.

[orgaelin]

Black flag...

Stupid people make me mad too, but I find you don't seem to be one. I really enjoyed your post actually; you raised some good points.

What you described when talking about your 'religion' is what it is REALLY all about. Nothing you said is Christian, Hindu, Islamic, Jewish or anything. It's just plain raw love of God. I wouldn't say anything to you other than good on you, you've found the truth exactly as it should be. It's not about how the book says it, it's about how YOU feel it.

I am glad you also raised the subject of faith healings. As I have said elsewhere, a number of aspects of my beliefs have origins with my former interest in Scientology.

Scientology have a number of easily demonstrated techniques for bringing about incredible cures... though in fact it would be more accurate for me to say they have techniques for bringing out the natural ability of man to cure himself.

[orgaelin]

Originally posted by Nono, Psychosomatic effects are poorly understood, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're magic.

Exactly; that's what it's all about. There's no hocus pocus. Sure you can as readily see it from a religious point as a scientific one according to your preference, but it really is straight forward.

[orgaelin]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, Its all good.

Glad you feel so positive!

I don't pray for the people with no faith, the ones that hate those with faith.

I really don't know what to do with them. Sometimes I wonder if we ought to shoot them. I'm not one of them you know, else I wouldn't be saying this! I have faith, just not in the bible. And I don't hate those who do, I just hate their big book.

But you know the only thing I really hate is hatred itself. There's nothing worse than a person who is full of hate and wants to make everyone else suffer. Do you pray for those kind of people? I reckon they make up about 20% of people. I also think (but don't know) that they can't be saved. No matter how much you pray for them.

[LDS]

Why do I do it?

"...because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them."

http://scriptures.lds.org/1_ne/13/29 <-(This is my guess, based on a few of the things you said in the 5th paragraph.)

Is it right? I mean here on the board we have people who believe, and people who absolutely do not believe. What are we doing?

Sometimes its good to put your beliefs through tests other than your own. I know I'm here because I wanted to see why others dont believe.

[orgaelin]

LDS, are you reading the debate about my "jesus lessons"? I would like your input.

[Paavo]

Very short and blunt:

I think it's not only "right" to doubt religions, I think it's necessary in order for the human race to evolve and simply get better at doing what we do, live, love and reproduce. Without doubt, we'd still be worshipping the sun and the moon and thinking stars are small holes in the black blanket that is the sky. Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, all current religions will eventually die out or change form... update themselves, if you will -- into something more suiting to the times we live in.

Around here I should probably say the usual "but I'm glad people have their faith", but I'm going to be honest for a change when it comes to "faith":
Faith is blind, in every form, isn't that what the word directly implies? And as mrV said, "blind faith is bad", I agree (Even though I know he doesn't view this like me, obviously :P)

I hope that in the future, there will be no organized religious groups, no readily written and dictated psalms and prayers or books that hold "the truth" -- but a common understanding that everyone has their own beliefs and philosophies. Of course, that will never happen. :(

[tusaki]

I believe there is 'more', but not necessarily exactly like one of the main religions. I believe all of the religions have some kind of common denominator, yet all fail in my eyes because they all claim to be 'the truth'. Most of all I don't like the 'holy' books, because those can be interpreted in any way you want and their power over people has been abused (by other people) too many times.

You said scientology shows some 'tricks' for miracle healing. Well, every religion has those, and some more readily teach those than others. (Buddhism, Shinto and Reiki for example, although Reiki is not really a religion). The trick is that you have to believe something to make it work. Now I'm getting back to my earlier point: the common denominator. Islam, Christianity and Jewism claim there is a god and some kind of devil. Buddhism claims there is no devil and no god, just 'being' and we 'are' part of 'it'.

I think that is a very logical conclusion, I do not believe in a super being, nor in absolute good or absolute evil. The world around us is just an expression of our soul or life energy. And we are connected, intertwined in a way we haven't quite figured out yet. I believe all religions more or less 'know' this, but interpreted it differently.

[Young]

The Old & New testament is contradicting.....until you understand this thought.....

The Old represents a world where we are trapped in Sin, the New assumes you have accepted Christ.

God doesn't use words to speak to you, God speaks through other means. Here is a Test for you, look for the Number 3, and see if it doesn't appear to you in strange situations....or if another concept is prevelant when you see the # 3.

It also appears that you give No credit to Satan for Our current condition.....Satan is Real. You Know you do things that aren't Good....accept those things as being Sin, then watch how difficult it is to abandon those things.....Satan doesn't wanna turn you loose.....He has You.

[orgaelin]

Tusaki, I agree with most of what you said...

Originally posted by tusaki, I think that is a very logical conclusion, I do not believe in a super being, nor in absolute good or absolute evil. The world around us is just an expression of our soul or life energy. And we are connected, intertwined in a way we haven't quite figured out yet.

...except this.

Actually I mostly agree. There's no evil being or hell, and the universe is just an expression of 'us'... but I belive 'us' are intertwined in such a way that ALL of us, collectively, are God.

[orgaelin]

Oh Young, I can only hope that you're young by name and not by nature. For someone young to be as corrupted and brainwashed as you would be criminal, and a tragedy.

Originally posted by Young, The Old & New testament is contradicting

Glad we agree!

The Old represents a world where we are trapped in Sin, the New assumes you have accepted Christ.

Really? And so that solves all the contradictions, right? Have yought about when each contradicts itself?

Tell us something you didn't hear your sunday school teacher say.

God doesn't use words to speak to you, God speaks through other means.

mp3's? movies?

Here is a Test for you, look for the Number 3, and see if it doesn't appear to you in strange situations....or if another concept is prevelant when you see the # 3.

Okay, so you've stmblud on a neat aspect of psychology. Well done. What's that got to do with God?!

It also appears that you give No credit to Satan for Our current condition.....Satan is Real.

You poor misguided fool. Let me tell you something. Man is born GOOD. Everyone is. Sometimes bad things happen and good people turn bad. Then they make more bad things happen, and some more people turn bad, but it's well balanced by good things happening causing people to turn good too.

It's a neat little system some people call Karma; what goes around comes around, etc. It works without God or Satan.

Check in a decent book about Satan and you will find that the very idea of Satan was actually dreamed up by the Catholic church, merely as a way fo controlling simple-minded church folk. You give them something horrid to fear, they be good citizens.

Like you!

You Know you do things that aren't Good....accept those things as being Sin, then watch how difficult it is to abandon those things....Satan doesn't wanna turn you loose.....He has You.

THIS is why I campaign against Christianity, because it fills young or simple minded people like yourself with beliefs like this that are dangerous to other people and TO YOURSELF!

Do you know the kind of psychological damage that can be done by carrying around stupid ideas like that in your head?

Satan doesn't have you. If you do something wrong my boy, it's YOUR fault. You can't blame Satan, just like you can't ask God to forgive you. Forgiveness comes from two places, 1)the person you wronged in the first place, and 2)yourself.

Forgive yourself, Young. Forget Satan. Forget "evil" and the "first sin", forget the idea that life is a struggle to make sure you don't missunderstand God's plan and ensure his wrath.

God loves you, because you are part of him, as he is part of you. You will never be punnished by God, only by yourself when you cannot forgive yourself. Everything you do is OK, and every bad situation wil eventually right itself.

Drop the scripture and the brainwashing, and just ASK god, with a pure heart and open mind, and He will tell you this is true. Ask him to help you know him as he really is, not as the bible says. Learn for yourself.

[tusaki]

Originally posted by orgaelin,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (orgaelin,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Tusaki, I agree with most of what you said... <!--QuoteBegin-tusaki, I think that is a very logical conclusion, I do not believe in a super being, nor in absolute good or absolute evil. The world around us is just an expression of our soul or life energy. And we are connected, intertwined in a way we haven't quite figured out yet.

...except this.

Actually I mostly agree. There's no evil being or hell, and the universe is just an expression of 'us'... but I belive 'us' are intertwined in such a way that ALL of us, collectively, are God.[/b][/quote]

Hehe, I think we are trying to say the same thing. But now consider this: what if conscience/the soul is fluid, and we are no more than drops, ready to fall apart and become part of the big pond again when we die. (not that we are actually apart from that pond now, but we think we are.) We are connected with all the other drops around us and together we have this common illusion of reality. A bit like the neurons in a brain. What do you think about this?