Should children read the bible?

[orgaelin]

What do people think about children reading the bible? I was raised in the Church of England, and was always being nagged to read my bible... that's probably why I didn't!

But is it really wise to tell children to read this book? I mean, it's only a few chapters in when Lot's two daughters get him drunk and shag his brains out in an effort to get pregnant from him. The book is full of perverted and disturbing stories, from sacrifices to murders, talk of masturbation and homosexuality, encouragement of racism (by god favouring the Hebrews over other nations, among many examples).

If I *had* read the book as a youngster, I think I would have come into some awkward concepts well before I was ready to.

I also suspect that most good Christians (even the kind that go to church every Sunday) don't even read the bible, because it is these people who are pushing the bible on their kids, and I can only assume they do so through a lack of appreciation for the real content of it.

I have read a lot of 'childrenised' versions of bible stories, where all the bits about God that don't seem quite nice are taken out... and it makes me wonder, if there is nothing wrong with what God does in the bible, why are they afraid to show their children? Truth: the bible says God does some pretty bad things, like genocide of nearly the entirety of human life, and Christian parents are ashamed of their faith, afraid that the innocence of their children will cause them to ask the all important question: if God is good, why does he break his own commandments and generally do things that are so bad?!

Would you give the book to your kids? And if so, why do you not let them watch porn and horror movies as well?

Org.

[Nono]

True, it scared the bejeeziz out of me when I was a kid. And that was before I even knew how to read.

[Ken Carman]

Actually, I find the book filled with contradictions and very poorly written. If I had submitted THAT for an English course I would have flunked out of school. Except for a few of the Psalms it's hard to understand, hard for adults; impossible for children. Unfortunately there are far too many adults willing to TELL children what it says, often taking it totally out of context.

Plus, which of the many versions? Should we inform them that the "editors" at the Council of Nicea (sp?) decided there were several books we shouldn't even have access to, like the Gnostic Gospels that tell us the power is within us; not some church elder, minister, priest or institution? Just how convenient was that decision?

[orgaelin]

They know all about convenient decisions. Make no mistake - the Catholic Empire is one of the most wicked institutions the world has ever known... and unforunately one of the largest and most powerful too. :(

[LDS]

Should children read the bible (scriptures)?

Yes. Mosiah admonishes us to 'Learn wisdom in thy youth.'

Granted you may have to simplify many things depending on the age of the youth.
Also you must build them a basis for reading the bible, that way when they draw their own conclusions they will have the opportunity to draw rightoues ones.

I can only assume they do so through a lack of appreciation for the real content of it.

Perhaps instead they have the opposite, an appreciation the truths stored in the scriptures.

if God is good, why does he break his own commandments and generally do things that are so bad?!

Much of what goes on in the Old Testament can seem bad, unless we have an understanding of the plan of salvation. Did the missionaries teach you the plan when they talked with you orgaelin?

Make no mistake - the Catholic Empire is one of the most wicked institutions the world has ever known... and unforunately one of the largest and most powerful too.

See there are things we agree on.

Actually the Catholic church does some great works, now that they been forced from political power, they do have many orphanages and help many charities out.

[Compugasm]

It's not the book, but the teachers who are the problem. To single out Christianity, Islam etc.. as evil, is just plain ignorant. The Brothers Grimm fairy tales are equally gorey. Such as, Hansel and Gretle being thrown into an oven by a witch.

I'm not a religious man myself, but regularly listen to "The Jesus Christ Show", because "Jesus" offers great advice to the people who call in. I suspect that is why Bibles or Korans have tales of sex, death, famine, etc... It's meant to be THE book to teach life lessons.

[orgaelin]

Yes but the Grimms didn't go out and practice what they wrote about! Christianity has a long history of killings and tortures.

I do ercognise that so have most empires and faiths and probably the majority of 'powers' in whatever form they have come.

But they weren't all pretending to be the wonderful and pure and sinless entity that Christianity pretends to be.

It's not the crimes of Christianity that bother me, it's the hypocrisy.

[Samildanach]

Might as well make them watch porn films as read the bible.

[Nono]

Originally posted by Compugasm It's not the book, but the teachers who are the problem.

Right. As soon as you get a clergy (i.e. anyone whose job it is to 'interpret' the sacred scriptures for the unwashed riffraff) your religion goes straight to hell.

The language in the present version of the Bible ("the King James version") is English as it was written hundreds of years ago. Sure it's hard to understand.

And it's a translation, which opens the doors very wide to all manner of deficiencies.

And it's been heavily edited by various political powers over the centuries to remove inconvenient bits.

[orgaelin]

I would really like a piece of software together with the original hebrew text of the OT, and/or Greek of the NT.

I have a huge thick concordance by Young, and find it very interesting to look up the meanings of words used in the bible and compare them with possible alternative meanings.

For example, the word in the Greek text of the NT calls Mary a "virgo" not a "virgo intactica", the intactica means virgin, virgo alone does not. Also, the hebrew word used for virgin is Almah, and this does not even mean virgin - it means "young woman", which in turn is used to denote a woman who is not yet married.

Most sensible scholars now agree that Jesus was simply born at a bad time, as Jewish law was very strict on when sexual acitivities were allowed. He was born "out of wedlock", when Mary was still a 'young woman' - not married.

Then the high priest quickly suggested they claim the child was of God to cover it up.

Their next child was James, Jesus' brother. Most of the occasions when Jesus is questioned about being King were referring to the question of whether he or his brother should be crowned, as James was legitimate, and Jesus was a bastard... poor bastard!

[Samildanach]

Of course Mary was a virgo....that explains everything :)

[Nono]

Originally posted by orgaelin Jesus was ... born "out of wedlock", when Mary was still a 'young woman' - not married. ... Jesus was a bastard...

Jesus Murphy, orgaelin! Not so long ago, talk like that would have had Torquemada coming for your nuts with red-hot pincers.
One thing people really don't like is to have their myths challenged.

[Compugasm]

Originally posted by orgaelin, Yes but the Grimms didn't go out and practice what they wrote about! Christianity has a long history of killings and tortures.

Islam, Judism, even Buddishm, have even longer histories of dispair. To single out Christianity is equally intolerant as you belive a Christians to be. The point I made was was non-faithful are equally at fault.

People have skewed ideas about religions merely because the bits and pieces of the story they picked up have been distorted, so they have little idea what the faithful actually believe.

[Compugasm]

The journey of Malcom X to Mecca is a facinating realization that what he belived about the world for his entire life was wrong. Here is a listing of quotes atributed to Malcom X.

[The Dunedan]

I should very much like to hear about this "Catholic Empire" of yours. Being a Catholic myself, and a very heavily-researched and well-read one at that, I should like to see evidence of this claim.
Where are our armies?
Where are our colonies?
What wars have we fought?

And please, none of the "Da Vinchi Code" nonsense that's become so popular. The last time the Catholic Church had anything resembling an army or colony was over 150 years ago, and the Garibaldian Redshirts did that in.
And yes, I know all about the Holy Office of the Inquisition. However, the wildly inflated body-count of the Inquisition is discounted by every reputable historian. The HOI kept extensive records, and most scholars believe the actual body-count to be in the neighborhood of about 35,000 people dead, with roughly twice that number dispossed: this spread over 350 years and four main areas of operation. By contrast, the city-states of Germany burned over 100,000 people as witches or Heretics in one year alone: 1509.
Also, none of this "Hitler's Pope" crap. The Vatican bankrolled every one of the Schwatz Kappelle ( Black Piano ) attempts on Hitler's life from 1943 onwards. Wilhelm Canaris was being paid by Pope Pius XII himself to co-ordinate these attempts. The Vatican also gave asylum to nearly 40,000 Jews during the course of the war, not to mention smuggling thousands more into Spain and providing weapons and money to the French, Polish, and German resistance movements. ( For verification, please read "Bodygaurd of Lies" by B.H. Liddel Hart, and "The German General's Talk" by an author who's name I cannot at once recall )

Please, if you're going to throw around terms like "Catholic empire" you'd damned well be able to back them up, and I don't mean with Jack Chick comics and "Alberto Rivera" stories. I DEFY you to present me with reputable, scholarly evidence of what you assert.

[orgaelin]

Originally posted by Compugasm+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Compugasm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>To single out Christianity is equally intolerant as you belive a Christians to be.[/b]

Ok, fair point.

Christianity is the faith in which I was raised, and thus the faith I know. I do now know much of Islam or Judaism in terms of their history.

The point I made was was non-faithful are equally at fault.

Which you'll notice I agreed to before you said.

People have skewed ideas about religions merely because the bits and pieces of the story they picked up have been distorted, so they have little idea what the faithful actually believe.

You're beginning to sound like one of the faithful yourself! I know what the faithful believe because I was one of them. Then I discovered that my faith was betrayed by the truth.

Originally posted by Nono@ Jesus Murphy, orgaelin! Not so long ago, talk like that would have had Torquemada coming for your nuts with red-hot pincers.

Actually, it seems I got the Dunedan guy instead!...

<!--QuoteBegin-The Dunedan
I should very much like to hear about this "Catholic Empire" of yours. Being a Catholic myself, and a very heavily-researched and well-read one at that, I should like to see evidence of this claim.
Where are our armies?
Where are our colonies?
What wars have we fought?[/quote]

I'm almost afraid to answer you!

Before I do... Hi, I'm Orgaelin. Nice to meet you!

I apologise if the term I used (Catholic Empire) offended you. Had it been the main thrust of my argument then I would not be sorry, but since it is just an expression I am used to using, I didn't mean anything much by it.

Or maybe I'm just being a wimp.

I could defend the term, since it is a very common term among the kind of authors I read. Perhaps empire isn't the word though. By that term, I simply mean to imply a collossal power, as apposed to a millitarily capable institution.

Catholicism is spread so far and wide throughout the world that even the most non-religious person is affected by it every day without even realising.

Also, I know very little of the church today.

As for the body count, sure the HOI took records. But do you honestly think they were accurate? And even if they were, 35,000 is a LOT of people for a faith in which one of the main rules is "Thou shalt NOT kill"!

It does not say 'Thou shalt not kill unless it's in my name or someone doesn't agree with me'!

And you speak of Germany burning people as witches... why did Germany do this? Because they subscribed to the same wisdom as yours: that the bible is the literal word of God and must be obeyed.

Witches are still being burned today because of Catholicism spreading the "Good News" irresponsibly, to peoples and cultures that were not ready to appreciate that killing witches isn't ok.

And please, none of the "Da Vinchi Code" nonsense that's become so popular

I haven't given you any of it yet. And the Da Vinci Code is just a recycled collection of scholarly work that existed beforehand.

I have a question I'd like you to answer... have you ever read the work of Barbara Thiering?

~ Org.

[Compugasm]

Originally posted by orgaelin, You're beginning to sound like one of the faithful yourself! I know what the faithful believe because I was one of them. Then I discovered that my faith was betrayed by the truth.

I agree it does sound like that. But more accurately, within the last month I've realized the whole arguement we're presented is all fear mongering. I'm not advocating a particular faith as better. Simply, that having faith is not bad. We're manipulated to belive that it is.

I base by comments on my readings of Malcom X who was a muslim convert, and "Jesus Christ" from "The Jesus Christ" radio show (Well, that's the name he's using, so I have to call him Jesus, even if it's really Bob.) Anyway, niether of these people are advocating Jihad or Crusades. So, the fault must fall to those who interpret the message within the holy books they belive in.

[orgaelin]

OKay Compugasm, I agree.

But I can't see that anyone is manipulated to see having faith as being a bad thing. Who is doing the manipulating, who is being manipulated, and what are the motives?

I think that despite everything science has achieved, it will be many hundreds or even thousands of years before its usefulness as a tool for mass control is worn out.

And before anyone jumps on me, I'm not suggesting that's all religion is for. That's just what it is all too often used for.

[orgaelin]

More for The Dunedan...

I have learned that, after the 30 years war,

"The ancient notion of a Roman Catholic empire of Europe, headed spiritually by a pope and temporally by an emperor, was permanently abandoned, and the essential structure of modern Europe as a community of sovereign states was established"

I cannot reasonably argue that the church is still an empire. How about a fallen empire?!

But then again, if you look at the post where I mentioned the Catholic Empire, you might well be able to see...

Originally posted by orgaelin, They know all about convenient decisions. Make no mistake - the Catholic Empire is one of the most wicked institutions the world has ever known... and unforunately one of the largest and most powerful too. :(

...that I did not actually say that Catholicism was an empire today. I could say 'Hitler is widely regarded as one of the most evil men who ever lived', but just because I said "Hitler IS" does not imply that Hitler IS still evil. He's dead...

Just like your empire!

~ Org.

[The Dunedan]

Orgaelin;
Well-put, and I apologize for my over-reaction. I have the misfortune to live in an area of the country wherein a large number of people still think that the Catholic Church would happily exterminate all Protestants at the first opportunity; I can be a little too thin-skinned at times. Mea Culpa.