Should children read the bible?

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by The Dunedan, Orgaelin; Well-put, and I apologize for my over-reaction. I have the misfortune to live in an area of the country wherein a large number of people still think that the Catholic Church would happily exterminate all Protestants at the first opportunity; I can be a little too thin-skinned at times. Mea Culpa.

Unfortunately there is plenty of historical evidence for both sides seeking to exterminate the other. Legend has it that Vlad the Impaler used to reserve a special form of impaling for Protestants and Catholics. Impaling, of course, is "traditionally" (????) bottom up. (Which of course explains the origin of the colonscopy.) He supposedly impaled members of the two faiths on the same stick together, face to face, so he could watch them tear each other's eyes out. Something about the story rings true. Sometimes people just seem to be so vicious and violent about what amounts to petty differences sometimes. I remember my Baptist minister when I was a kid (NOT hard shell, obviously) once told me the difference beween me and my Methodist friend was "we dip them and they sprinkle them, that's about it." But people used to kill over things like that...

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by orgaelin, just because I said "Hitler IS" does not imply that Hitler IS still evil. He's dead... ~ Org.

He is NOT. I saw him at a Burger King take out window just yesterday. I ordered a Whopper and when I tried to eat it I broke a tooth on a swastika he hid under a bun. Now, if Bush will allow me access to the courts. I'll have to sue so at LEAST they'll change that song to, "Hold the swastika, hold the lettuce..."

[Compugasm]

Originally posted by orgaelin, But I can't see that anyone is manipulated to see having faith as being a bad thing. Who is doing the manipulating, who is being manipulated, and what are the motives?

All too numerous for little old me to list.

[orgaelin]

Originally posted by Compugasm,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Compugasm,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-orgaelin, But I can't see that anyone is manipulated to see having faith as being a bad thing. Who is doing the manipulating, who is being manipulated, and what are the motives?

All too numerous for little old me to list.[/b][/quote]

Well then list one, 'cause I don't even know what you're talking about man!

~ Org.

[orgaelin]

Originally posted by The Dunedan, Well-put, and I apologize for my over-reaction.

You know I never in a million years expected you to say that! I'm surprised no-one has accused me of hacking your ID and typing the message myself!

~ Org.

[orgaelin]

Vlad was an amazing character. Say what you will of him, he sure had crime rates under control! As far as torture methods go, this guy was history's only genius!

[Croslandite]

Let children decide whether they actually want to read the bible. And be extremely wary of religion at school, especially faith based ones. They target children because they're easy to manipulate with their propaganda. I was given a very hard time at school by teachers for openly being an Atheist; fortunately I remained strong but with a will that religion is not personal, it is a sin in itself and must be stamped out. At the very least, it is my duty as an Atheist to shout my word as loud as any other religion. Almost a religion in itself!!

[Mr.Vicchio]

I think that Children denied the right to read the Bible should be taken from thier parents. But thats just me.

[orgaelin]

Croslandite, I have to agree with most of what you said. Religion in school should not be totally removed, but should be objective. We should not have to pray in a specific religions format, and should learn about all the different options in which we might believe, including atheism. I think they're just afraid that most children will choose atheism!

Mr Vicchio... nearly 2000 posts on this board. Are they all so rediculous?!

Sure, let them read the bible. Anyone who would deny them that is wrong. But don't go pushnig it down their throats. And wait untill they're old enough to not be shocked by some of the nasty stuff in there.

But you certainly wouldn't want to take peoples' kids off them for not letting them read the bible. In this country people are abused, physically and sexually, and often still get left with their parents.

But that's a whole different subject!

~ Org.

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, I think that Children denied the right to read the Bible should be taken from thier parents. But thats just me.

Wow, where do I start with that one? While I do work a lot with children, I've never had children, but I certainly wouldn't deny them the right to read the bible. I certainly would supervise them: asking what they had read and attempting to make them think through their conclusions. I would also pay a lot of attention to anyone else who was attempting to "supervise" their reading. Vultures, such as Jimmy Jones, do exist out there.

But, in this country, we have parents who refuse to let their children read Huck Finn, Tom Sawyer... the list is endless. Do I think children should be taken away in any of those cases? No. Parents, to a certain extent, should be free to raise their children any way they want: no matter how stupid their concepts may be.

So, Mr. Vicchio, we're going to have to disagree on this one.

[Somalia04]

Originally posted by orgaelin, What do people think about children reading the bible? I was raised in the Church of England, and was always being nagged to read my bible... that's probably why I didn't! Org.

Funny, I have the exact opposite experience. Because my father is a minister, I was required to read the Bible and, although it is very irritating to have someone nagging at you to do something like that, it was one of the best things my parents did for me. I think that there are things in the Bible that children need not be exposed to at an early age, but hey, if society can teach kids about stuff like homosexuality and sex, why can't the Bible?
For the Bible being compared to porn, the only instances that I can think of that resemble porn, are designed to have the opposite effect on people. They should make you abhor the act not revel in it. But that goes back to how there are parts of the Bible that should be read when you have a greater understanding of the intent of those parts and of the Bible as a whole.

[Ken Carman]

[i]

Originally posted by Somalia04,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Somalia04,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-orgaelin, What do people think about children reading the bible? I was raised in the Church of England, and was always being nagged to read my bible... that's probably why I didn't! Org.

Funny, I have the exact opposite experience. Because my father is a minister, I was required to read the Bible and, although it is very irritating to have someone nagging at you to do something like that, it was one of the best things my parents did for me. [/b][/quote]

Seems to me this goes to how talented some parents are at parenting and assessing their own children. It some very hard cases, there may not be a lot they can do. But most of the time a parent needs to assess when to back off. Unfortunately many "adults," as can be proven by just visting a random chat room or home, don't bother even trying. Too often it breaks down into constant threats and name-calling.

My parents, for instance, never required I read the bible. Yet, I've been through the New Testament twice and the Old once... it's hard to get past things like counting how many screws are in the Ark. I've also been through both books of the Dead, the Koran and many other theological/"divine" texts. I once attempted to get through the Book of Mormon. But after Nephi's brothers rebelled for the quadzillionth time, I gave up. I thought I was living in some theological version of Groundhog Day.

It's the old nature vs. nurture argument. We are one part genetics, one part who raised us, one part who helped us up or attempted to keep us down, one part where we have lived... then take it all, throw it all in a blender and... what comes out may or may not be quite unpredictable. Then you have that wild card; what probably amounts to a mutation, like Jeffery Dahmer...

[don-gruntles]

the bible has lots of good examples of how to live? Why not give it a read. I would balance it with parental discussion. And maybe throw in some other stories which fall into the category of homily. They are illustrative and informative. Not really partisan, until maybe a parent puts a slant and prejudice on them. As with all good books, retain the good and worthy and ask them to use their good sense regarding ideology and parsimony. They should grow up chipper and spiritual as a consequence and not bigoted or diseased by our sometimes tabloid parody of Nature and Creation.

[castille]

Children who read the bible like good boy grow up to become a good crusader, who goes into the middle east to do good deeds like raping heathens.

So yes, children should read the bible. Gotta grow up to be good lil religous people.

[orgaelin]

Originally posted by Ken Carman,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ken Carman,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I certainly wouldn't deny them the right to read the bible. I certainly would supervise them: asking what they had read and attempting to make them think through their conclusions. I would also pay a lot of attention to anyone else who was attempting to "supervise" their reading.[/b]

Makes perfect sense. Isn't it nice when someone comes into a debate and just finishes it by stating clearly and fully the final and unarguable answers?

So, Mr. Vicchio, we're going to have to disagree on this one.

And that makes sense too. Agreeing with that chap is not easy!

Originally posted by Somalia,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Somalia,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I have the exact opposite experience. Because my father is a minister, I was required to read the Bible [...] it was one of the best things my parents did for me[/b]

If you have faith, that's fine. To me there are so many different levels of faith. For example, there is blind faith, where you just accept everything the bible says. That takes a certain strength.

But a far *far* stronger faith would be the one you have AFTER you have questioned everything. I mean, if you could read all the modern books about what non-religious scholars believe to be a more truthful explanation of biblical events, and then STILL have faith, well it strikes me that would be the strongest faith in the world.

But you know it's funny... the bible says God doesn't want to be questioned. Surely in his wisdom he must know that people would have far stronger faith if they were able to work through any questions? Or is that, in his wisdom, he knows more than 50% wouldn't come through? At least, not with any faith left.

<!--QuoteBegin-Ken,@
I once attempted to get through the Book of Mormon. But after Nephi's brothers rebelled for the quadzillionth time, I gave up. I thought I was living in some theological version of Groundhog Day.[/quote]

Man that made me laugh my ass off! Excellent indeed!

I agree with you, Ken, that there is a lack of decent parenting around. In the UK there are fairly often national stories about children being abducted and killed... we had Jamie Bulger, the baby who was taken by *children* and tortured and beaten to near-death, left on a railway line to be hit by a train. Then there was the more recent Holly and Jessica, two school-girls abducted, raped and murdered...

So when this stuff is in the news, what's the first thing local parents do? Lock their children in? No. They notice they're out of a few things, write up a shopping-list, and send their 4 year old child to the shops!

Seriously. That happens here. The suburb I live in was recently voted in the top 20 worst places in the country. It's not really that bad, it was just a political move to get the government to spend money here, and it worked since they're spending millions to make themselves... I mean the area... look good.

It's a sick and twisted world sometimes.

<!--QuoteBegin-DonGruntless,
the bible has lots of good examples of how to live?[/quote]

Are you asking me or telling me?!

Why not give it a read

Oh you're SO patronising! Would I have ANYTHING to say here if I hadn't?!

I agree that it is good for children to grow up, as you say, spiritually. My eldest step-son, aged 8, frequently wants to discuss the nature of his soul, of heaven, and the afterlife. He finds the whole subject fascinating.

When I answer his questions, I don't tell him what I believe. I ask him what his school told him (every school around here is essentially Christian) and I tell him some of the things other people believe. Not many 8 yr olds can sum up the Hindu faith... not many 80 yr olds can!

Castille,
Yes, we do need more crusaders. Those wretched heathens are getting away with so much. It's a good job we know God is *wanting* us to go and make them pay, otherwise we'd be breaking his commandments! But hey, he does it, why shouldn't we?!

~ Org.

[Technosoul]

Okay what if I made a realistic movie about the Bible (as much as it would be possible to do so with speical effects and all)?

What if I showed without censorship Adam and Eve walking around naked, and Noah getting drunk and naked in front of his son who was later punished for "looking and laughing". What if I showed in bloody detail the "passion of Samiel" and his what he did with his bloody crusade (just before appointing David).

I will not go into more details, some of you know that would be in my graphic movie. Would you show my movie at your local Sunday School class for all the kids to watch? What if I showed Mother Mary as a 12 year old child with a baby in tow, which experts know is a fact. After she was visited by a stranger in her bedroom who claimed to be an angel. Hmmm?

Will you let your kid see my movie? Especially an 8 year old son who's parents do not want him to see a topless woman? If your answer is "no" then likewise keep the Bible out of reach until they reach the proper age of consent.

Technosoul.

[orgaelin]

How odd. I've grown so accustomed to having great fights on my hand. I'm not used to agreeing with people lately!

But about the 12 year old girl thing... I'm not sure if that rings a bell... would you mind giving more detail so I can try and dig out of my memory whatever you're reminding me of?

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by orgaelin, How odd. I've grown so accustomed to having great fights on my hand. I'm not used to agreeing with people lately! But about the 12 year old girl thing... I'm not sure if that rings a bell... would you mind giving more detail so I can try and dig out of my memory whatever you're reminding me of?

I was watching some TV special they aired about the life of Mary last year, I think it was hoasted by Peter Jennings. They had some lady on the show who was some sort of securlar expert and she noted that if she was with a child before getting married then she would no doubt have been 12 or under the age of 12 years old because it was the custom that they get a husband of the girl at age 12, this was very important in their thinking, and so just about any halfway healthy young girl would have been married by the age of 13 (sometimes by pre-arrangements between the parents). No doubt if a girl was still unwanted at age 15 she would not "fit" well into the peer group thinking. That might be one reason why the term "young girl" was used for the first marrage, and why they might have been kept apart until the girl was old enough to give her "yes" to having children with the selected husband or the "arranged marrage". And later we changed the the first and 2nd marrage idea and called it "beinging engaged" first with a ring (vowing to be true) and then the final act of getting married. In any case you would have to research (somehow?) what age the thought a girl should be married by (in those days under Jewish custom) and then, assuming she was not yet married, that she was with child before the normal age girls were mated up. (Although she might have been engaged to Joesph at the time with what they called the 1st marrage). I think they got married at age 12 (as many of the poor people would be lucky to live past the ripe old age of 30 and nearly half the children died before reaching maturity due to the poverty present). A boy at age 8 was able to join the men as part of the work force and could take part in temple activity, and no doubt would get married at about the age of 15 or 16 as they would have to be able to afford a wife by attaining job related knowledge.

Sound about right? Note: I am largely speculating here.

Technosoul.

[orgaelin]

It's definitely familiar stuff.

I know I read somewhere that the age was really young, but I also have cause to wonder if it might be a missunderstanding of something else...

In Jesus' sect there were various spiritual levels, and you descended up and down these levels according to your purity before God. Now remember that these priests were supposed to be celibate, and that sex was considered to be a filthy act... which is odd seeing as God said himself "Go forth and make babies dudes"!

Anywho, rather than call people "stage one initiate", "stage two", etc. they decided to give them sort of descriptions. There were blind men, beggars, lame men, etc. and these all corresponded to different levels, thus when Jesus makes the blind man see, all he has actually done is promote a "blind man" to a higher rank. Clever huh?!

So any way, the reason this is relevant to the age of marriage thing is that one of the very first levels is that of "child", so when they say "She was a child when she married" it could be a reference to her spiritual status, rather than her literal childhood.

And yet, saying that, I know I've heard something about 12 year marriages. I'll get looking!

[orgaelin]

Ok, here's some info...

http://www.jewfaq.org/marriage.htm

It tells us that, "The minimum age for marriage under Jewish law is 13 for boys, 12 for girls; however, the kiddushin can take place before that, and often did in medieval times."

The "kiddushin" means marriage.

This doesn't tell us that she was that young, but it certainly supports the possibility.

And if it were so, wouldn't that make the Holy Ghost a paedophilic rapist?! Nice!