What's next?

[orgaelin]

My oh my what a refreshing thread this is!

Gentlemen (namely, gr8 and tman) I salute you both.

Gr8 - I always argue exactly the same as you: my complaints are for the villainous christian character they call god, not for the real god I know inside.

Like you said, you don't need someone else to define god for you, and neither does anyone else, because unless you already know it for yourself, you're not ready to understand it any way.



But it's interesting because no matter how much I am certain that the christian god is entirely nothing to do with the real god, I am nevertheless fascinated by the 2000 year history of this wicked institution.

I have just bought "The Da Vinci Code Decoded"... most of you should have heard of the novel, "The Da Vinci Code"? Well, this "decoded" book fills in some of the questions left by the semi-fictional novel.

It's a good book, but there are others I would recommend before it. There are two authors whom I feel really have the truth nailed down, and can shed real light on what this twisted christian empire is really all about, and how it came about.

Sir Laurence Gardner and Barbara Thiering are their names. They explain how Mary was no virgin, Jesus was no carpenter, and most of the biblical stories are allegorical of things which are far more interesting.

There are simple explanations behind all the miracles, and amazing explanations about how Jesus and his buddies effectively faked his death, how he married Mary Magdelene and had children, the descendents of whom are alive today.

Gardner and Thiering deal only with the biblical history though, while authors like Michael Baigent and David Leigh explain the modern events spawned by those described in the gospels. The bloodline of Jesus has survived in a number of royal houses, like the Stuarts of Scotland, and the Merovingians of France.

It is suggested, and even more so with the recent "Da Vinci Code", that a secret organisation has been plotting for centuries to restore the rightful kings of Jerusalem and Europe, and that the EU has been set up for this very purpose. We're talking about rich and powerful men, men who have the fate of the earth in the palm of their hands.

All these authors seem to prevent these people in a positive light, but some think they are evil, like David Icke, but then Icke thinks he's the second coming of Jesus, so...

~ Org.

[orgaelin]

Tman,

I don't believe in Heaven either, or in a guy with a grey beard.

When I talk about god, I'm referring simply to consciousness itself. There's a word I can't quite think of, to describe the structure of a crystal... you know how crystals are made up of very small representations of the larger crystal? Well, to me, god is the larger crystal and we are the components.

I don't think it's all sweet and wonderful though. I'm not sure, but I suspect that consciousness without a body and a brain isn't much fun. I also think that's why we're here... floating around the universe as a little conscious 'nothing' must be so dull. I think we incarnate simply for something to do.

But my ideas are not fully formed, if indeed they ever will be. There is as always more to learn.

~ Org.

[tman_ndsu08]

That's an interesting theory.

Wouldn't you think that such powerful men would stop the release of such information, even if it's just for entertainment?

As for crystals and consciousness (a good name for your future book, no? ), maybe the word your looking for is monomer (with polymer being the large chain). Perhaps not.

Sounds like another interesting theory, although I'm not so sure I like your discription of afterlife!

[orgaelin]

I think that such powerful men would present their secrets to the world in such a way that anyone who found them would have to try real hard to find them, and if they found them, by having done so they would prove themselves worthy of knowing.

If they were up to no good, maybe, but I don't think they are.

As for the afterlife, I kinda think there isn't one.

Nothing in the universe ever ceases to exist, it only changes form.

I think the afterlife is just a gap in the repeated taking of new lives. I think we live earthly lives so that we can have the pleasure of forgetting...

Imagine if you never died... how long would it be before love was really not that special any more, because you'd fallen in and out of it a trillion times. You only get one first kiss, there's only one first time for everything you do. After the first time, every next time gets less and less special, whether it's learning to tie your shoe lace or sky diving.

So we live temporary lives, and we can have a million first loves, a million first kisses, and make every time as special as the first time.

I'd better go before I rant through till morning and end up even more tired than I am already!

~ Org.

[tman_ndsu08]

Originally posted by orgaelin, I think that such powerful men would present their secrets to the world in such a way that anyone who found them would have to try real hard to find them, and if they found them, by having done so they would prove themselves worthy of knowing. If they were up to no good, maybe, but I don't think they are. As for the afterlife, I kinda think there isn't one. Nothing in the universe ever ceases to exist, it only changes form. I think the afterlife is just a gap in the repeated taking of new lives. I think we live earthly lives so that we can have the pleasure of forgetting... Imagine if you never died... how long would it be before love was really not that special any more, because you'd fallen in and out of it a trillion times. You only get one first kiss, there's only one first time for everything you do. After the first time, every next time gets less and less special, whether it's learning to tie your shoe lace or sky diving. So we live temporary lives, and we can have a million first loves, a million first kisses, and make every time as special as the first time. I'd better go before I rant through till morning and end up even more tired than I am already! ~ Org.

Very interesting ideas.

You'd be right in that matter itself never ceases to exist. However, certain configurations of matter that we give names and make connections with can cease to exist.

[orgaelin]

Originally posted by tman_ndsu08 Very interesting ideas.

Did you guess ahead of time that I would agree with that statement?!

The ideas don't stop there. I think the whole idea ties in nicely with certain major religious themes, like the Fall from Heaven.

The 'fall from heaven' was simply the decision taken by a large number of souls to incarnate into physical form. Any souls who stayed behind would doubtlessly think it a terrible idea, as the physical form so restricts the soul from the full potential of its nature.

I believe there is some crucial difference between human brains and those of more primitive animals, and it is this difference which allows the human body to play host to a soul.

I'm not saying animals don't have souls. I don't know what they have. I don't think human souls can come back as slugs or penguins though!

I also believe that a mistake was made. Basically the problem is that the soul has become so identified with the body that it is no longer aware of its seperate existence. Each of us actually believes that we ARE the body, rather than that we simply HAVE a body.

I believe there is internal conflict in all people because of this. For example, before the soul started occupying bodies, the human brain would be in complete control of the being. By using urges, it would get the human to excrete, reproduce, find food, etc. whenever it felt the need...

But a soul takes away that freedom from the body. The body says, "go to the loo, now, I'm desperate", but the soul says, "I have to wait, I am in an important meeting"

Or similarly, the body craves sex and wants it now. The soul knows it can't just go out and take any suitably able woman without her permission!

So we have internal conflict between the intentions of the body, and those of the soul.

The intentions of the body are very simple. It's primary drive is to survive, with secondary drives that contribute to that survival, like reproduction, the survival of ones offspring, etc. Basic animal stuff.

It is the will of the soul that drives man to fly to the moon and explore and create and so on.

In terms of evolution, the combining of soul and body has been a very recent affair, and I feel that there are many teething problems that have yet to go away.

For example, particularly in America, there is a widespread obesity problem. Why? Why do people crave the foods that are bad for them if the cravings come from the body which only wants to survive as long as possible? Simply because humans evolved for millions of years with very little food available, thus learned to develop a taste preference for anything which would make them gain as much weight as possible, to help them survive when there was less food.

Now we have lots of food, but evolution takes millions of years to adapt.



I said earlier I thought a mistake had been made... this is in reference to the decision by the souls to take bodies. For the reason I outlined in the previous post, they chose to forget everything each time their body died. They start completely from fresh every new lifetime.

I think the mistake was that they didn't see just how much of a tragic waste of time this was. Why bother living at all if you're just going to forget about it? I don't believe all souls feel this way, but I believe many are beginning to see it. And I think we must be in the midst or at the beginning of another heavenly revolution... although I only use the word heaven for want of a better word.

More and more people speak of remembering past lives, or of having knowledge for which they know no source. Talk of spiritual awakening across the world is increasingly common. This is what I am talking about - souls have started choosing to hang on to things; little bits of memories that are only vaguely accessible.

But why so vaguely accessible? I'm not sure if this is a practical difficulty, or a deliberate decision. Certainly it would be disastrous to suddenly make every person remember every past life... we'd all be seeking out vengeance against people who were wrongdoers against us in their own past lives!

I personally see it as a challenge. A soul is like a lightbulb in a sealed black box. From inside the box it can't shine. But it may be possible to regain some of the abilities of our souls while still in the body, like telepathy, telekinesis, spiritual mediumship, etc.

I've never let out this much of my worldview till now! What do you think?

~ Org.

[tman_ndsu08]

Write a book man, I think it would sell.

[orgaelin]

I often consider it. In fact I have started it once or twice. Too many ideas, too little time!

[Apologist]

gr8fuldaniel,
I'm a little late in in the discussion but your comments are very far from the truth. First of all, I didn't tell you to do anything. It is your decision whether or not to accept God. But you have no respect if you curse and sound like a punk teenager like you have. Your views toward God are wrong. God is loving, but he is also just! Its really up to you whether or not your gonna seek answers with a dogma approach, but I suggest dialogue and doxology. Meaning that you should be firm in your beliefs, but willing to accept others views. Your views on hell or also very far off, READ more and you will understand. J.P. Moreland is a very good read. But I warn you about the comments you have made. I don't agree with other religions but I don't speak such words as you have. Grow up! I would prefer debating with people who have an open mind and choose not to use such words, so this site discussion is done for me.

[orgaelin]

God is loving, but he is also just

But "just" according to whose definition?

I mean, in the context of the OT it was 'just' to visit the iniquities of the father on the tenth generation of his descendents...

But does anyone feel that way today?

Justice is not an absolute, neither is right-from-wrong. It is no longer a crime to be homosexual, or to masturbate, or to work on the Sabbath, at least not in the eyes of most people.

If our perceptions of what is wrong and what is right change over the millenia, how can we be judged by these right and wrong actions, and how can justice be dished out without even a clear-cut method of defining justice?

Perhaps that's why God sticks to a single, simple punnishment for the unrepentent? Fire and brimstone.

[orgaelin]

Originally posted by gr8fuldaniel, I am not familiar with the Dead Sea Scrolls/Satans Plan theory. I believe Satan/Hell are not some ruler/realm in the afterlife. Hell can be experienced in self loathing, insanity, addictions, chemical imbalances, hate/resentment, ego-centricity, loneliness, agoraphobia (or any fear for that matter). Hell can be transcended. Religion and churchs tend to seperate people from God like an exclusive club.

Apologist,

Gr8's arguments there didn't seem so childish to me. It seems like quite a reasonable perception on Hell. I suspect even LDS would agree with it to some extent.

[tman_ndsu08]

Originally posted by Apologist, gr8fuldaniel, I'm a little late in in the discussion but your comments are very far from the truth. First of all, I didn't tell you to do anything. It is your decision whether or not to accept God. But you have no respect if you curse and sound like a punk teenager like you have. Your views toward God are wrong. God is loving, but he is also just! Its really up to you whether or not your gonna seek answers with a dogma approach, but I suggest dialogue and doxology. Meaning that you should be firm in your beliefs, but willing to accept others views. Your views on hell or also very far off, READ more and you will understand. J.P. Moreland is a very good read. But I warn you about the comments you have made. I don't agree with other religions but I don't speak such words as you have. Grow up! I would prefer debating with people who have an open mind and choose not to use such words, so this site discussion is done for me.

All of your opinions of god are based off of religious teachings. gr8 has rejected those teachings.

[orgaelin]

Don't you hate it when people spew out carbon-copy speeches from their preacher?

There's nothing more annoying than when you're trying to have a reasoned debate with a Christian and then they just start shooting out bible passages or repeating what their preacher told them. This is the mark of a truly brainwashed individual. They can no longer think for themselves. They think in bible passages and sermons.

I want to start a new thread on the subject of hypnotic effects in the church. I'm going to gather some data first though.

[gr8fuldaniel]

I have some catching up to do here. I have been doing patient stuff the last couple of days. They are trying to find out where my kidney stone went, or if it went. I hope I dont EVER have to go through another "passing of the stone". In this lifetime or any other. Nobody can prove to me there is another lifetime of any sort, no matter how adamant you are. I too, was once convinced, by religion, of an after life. Its a very nice idea and it will make many adults and kids be good or else. God the authoritarian dictators Love is only matched by his Hate. Does God hate palestinians and queers? Dont give me the old line about how God hates the actions but not the actors. Because if that were the case, God would be sending our actions to hell and sending us on to heaven.
Hopefully I can return later today to respond to some of the great discussion here in this topic. I owe you guys that much, but I've gotta run right now. Peace.

[orgaelin]

Gr8ful, with what time you have, you espouse enough wisdom to make the people on here with more time stare in amazement!