Evolution

[fedfem]

By not debating the issue, the education of Americans will suffer. The creationists are fighting to get evolution out of the science curriculum and that would be detrimental for the future of medicine, science, and religion in general. Even now there are teens graduating from HS that can't even grasp the basics of biology. What will be the future of science and technology if we allow the dumbing down of our children.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Information regarding the incidence of mutation is readily available, as is percentage chance of a mutation being advantagous or disadvantagous. Work in the mean lifespan of the spieces, the odds of the correct chromosome pair being affected, and the possibility of two oppisite sexed mutations being available to propagate the new branch. Fairly easy if you can work math and apply it to reality...

[Dislogic]

well unfortunately for me i seem to be math handicaped as i have proven by my Math grades at school... However i can see what you are coming from and understand generally how you have reached your conclusion. However if you are saying humans didnt have enough time to evolve to what they are but other life forms of previous dates did then how would you explain that? i would explain it by as i said before that maybe the reason that we had evolved faster then other species is because our minds adapted easily and faster to new situations then other organisms therfore we our mutations may have been larger and more advantegous then the type of mutations that other species have undergone.

I hope i wrote that correctly. I am kind of under the weather and tired from doing all types of summer AP work for school on wednsday... its never good to leave school work till the last minute! remember that

[G. Adams]

Perhaps as man's intelligence overcomes the problems that random mutations would take millenia to solve, any mutations pass by without becoming dominant in the species. That and our sexual activities now. We don't have one alpha male getting all the women pregnant, so no dominant set of genes are passed on, instead theres a healthy mix of everything. This stops any new mutation becoming a part of the entire species.

[GreatWyrm of Babylon]

Adams
Our current medical policies are contra-survival. If we ever abandon our technological base as some of the green party would have us do, we would quickly die off in so many numbers that the Black Plague would look like the common cold. Current medicine is accelerating virus evolution, hopefully it does not exceed our medical technology before we figure out a way to survive the consequences.

[Nicole]

Was there ever one 'Alpha Male'?? I find that somewhat hard to believe. Even harder to believe that you could possibly know something like that.

[cachekntx]

dont you understand that this is called a theory but it must be fact since you can actually see the change in bones and fossils of species over time?! scientists have clearly shown this, how can you possibly explain this other then evolution... (im not talking about religous people or creationists since they probably dont even give the arguement any thought) i mean i think that this theory is as good as proven and i believe that many scientists already accept this "theory" as fact.

Dislogic: Remember that I did mention it as a "scientific theory"... which pretty much does mean I do recognise evolution for what it is... but you see... saying that scientists accept it as fact - is the problem.... it's still a theory... simple clear black or white... no inbetween...

What I was getting to is that the day we are able to ultimately prove... ultimately understand this theory... ultimately use this theory to the fullest would be the same exact day we are able play God ourselves... which makes me wonder why we humans can't see the existence of a God possible. I mean it seems like this is the only thing we like to do... is to become God and disprove one exists ... go ahead clone and hey we can do it... no need for God ... go ahead replicate and hey we can do it... no need for God... go ahead terraform - Hehe we've done it - no need for God... go ahead mutate.... go ahead synthesize...etc... Pretty much what we do for our own survival is teaching us the basics of sustaining and creating life...

Thanks but no thanks... I'll stick to the Bible use it as a God 101 course until evolution becomes a fact so I'd be ready myself for the job....

I know it does sound far fetched... but the same time you have to give man credit for trying to play God constantly... and it shouldn't come as a surprise that such a day were we as man become God... and then THAT becomes a whole new debate.... hehehe...

fedfem: I don't see the point of arguing a theory over religion - coz the only thing they both have in common is (direct and indirect) questioning of God's existence... one proves that he exists the other does exactly the opposite... and one is a theory and the other is faith... aye... grey areas...

"American education will suffer"? Ouch.... what about the rest of the world?

[Gwala]

I'm going to introduce myself with a disagreement with you cachekntx:
While Evolution is a theory, to quote "The creationists make it sound like evolution was thought up after a hard night drinking". Sure its still a theory, but it has a lot more evidence going for it, than a book that was Orally transmitted for over 800 years, and has no valid tangible proof, short of the assurances that can be given by figures such as the Pope, who happens to incidentally be running one of the worlds richest orgnisations.

Schools should not be teaching evolution, they dont here in Australia. And the reasons are as above
- Theres no tangible proof
- It shows that there isnt a seperation between church and state
- It limits peoples perspective, and discourages free thought

On the other hand, playing the devils advocate why should we teach evolution, and biology?
- Natural Selection, Genetic Theory are linked heavily in Mutation proposed by Darwin's "The Origin of Species"
- It has more proof going for it than the nearest contender
- It's not open for interpretation, and represents the most likely occurance of what really happened.
- Its being taught as a THEORY, not FACT. But its also being taught with the EVIDENCE that will some-day prove it. (See the first post for examples)

-Gwala

[Pooeypants]

Right, there is too much BS flying around. First of all, evolution is fact and theory. Read this. The theory contains a model which explains the fact. In the same way that Gravity is fact and theory. So is the germ theory, and the theory of cells. etc
In science, a theory is about the highest status in certainty you can get bar the universal constant of which there are only five and the speed of light in a vacuum is one of them. Hence, if you're arguing against evolution you better have some damn good evidence with you to refute it. I'd rather take something that has been proven scientific than some musty old books written by men over two thousand years...and they thought the world was flat...so therefore, do we go with the scientists, or the written collection of some goat herder's folklore...

It's time to move onto the real world chaps, find out what and how the world & its creatures formed.

[G. Adams]

I know that. But if we didn't have those anti-biotics/inti-viral agents, we would have lost numbers in their weaker forms, until we developed a resistance. The same thing will happen when we are thoroughly overtaken by the virus's, and the same thing will happen, just on a much bigger scale. That doesn't bother me, thats just nature for you.

[G. Adams]

hrm, that probably makes no sense where it was placed, that was a reply to GWB.

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by Nicole@Sep 2 2003, 03:17 AM Was there ever one 'Alpha Male'?? I find that somewhat hard to believe. Even harder to believe that you could possibly know something like that.

I am comparing us to other primates for that assumption of alpha males.

One male per group/tribe/whatever is the strongest to control the group, so gets the pick of females. Obviously others do get the females pregnant, or you would have warped incestious gorillas.

On top of that, if we look at primitive human cultures today, there is often one male with multiple of the 'best' women as 'his'.

Even in the most advanced of societies we still get primitive men who happily get women pregnant then wander on to the next one.

Thats where my ideas came from, Nicole.

[Dislogic]

Originally posted by Pooeypants@Sep 2 2003, 06:29 AM Right, there is too much BS flying around. First of all, evolution is fact and theory. Read this. The theory contains a model which explains the fact. In the same way that Gravity is fact and theory. So is the germ theory, and the theory of cells. etc In science, a theory is about the highest status in certainty you can get bar the universal constant of which there are only five and the speed of light in a vacuum is one of them. Hence, if you're arguing against evolution you better have some damn good evidence with you to refute it. I'd rather take something that has been proven scientific than some musty old books written by men over two thousand years...and they thought the world was flat...so therefore, do we go with the scientists, or the written collection of some goat herder's folklore... It's time to move onto the real world chaps, find out what and how the world & its creatures formed.

wow! thankyou Pooey Pants for explaining what i was trying to explain to them all along.

[Nicole]

Oh I have no trouble comprehending the primitive male theory. But if I may dare say so with my lack of knowlege in the field compared to some here, I beg to differ.

You cannot possibly know that and I do not believe that that is how traits were passed on and humans changed into higher life forms because there were a few dominant males out there. I mean come on, there are birds out there who find a mate and stick with it. You don't know that early man was not the same. That all entertaining to the possibility that evolution might be legitimate.

And please don't tell me to go elsewhere because I can't pull off a bunch of scientific jargon. My opinions are just as valid as anyone else's.

I find it impossible to believe that something so perfect as our entire being and surroundings could be chance.

[Nicole]

Originally posted by Pooeypants@Sep 2 2003, 06:29 AM I'd rather take something that has been proven scientific than some musty old books written by men over two thousand years...and they thought the world was flat...so therefore, do we go with the scientists, or the written collection of some goat herder's folklore...

If you're referring to the Bible, you should know that it records the earth as being round.

[Dislogic]

it doesent matter what the bible said... this thread isnt about the bible... its about evolution and if you would have read PooeyPants post you would see the fact of evolution. read the article he posted, im sure you will be enlightened.

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by Nicole@Sep 2 2003, 10:43 AM Oh I have no trouble comprehending the primitive male theory. But if I may dare say so with my lack of knowlege in the field compared to some here, I beg to differ. You cannot possibly know that and I do not believe that that is how traits were passed on and humans changed into higher life forms because there were a few dominant males out there. I mean come on, there are birds out there who find a mate and stick with it. You don't know that early man was not the same. That all entertaining to the possibility that evolution might be legitimate. And please don't tell me to go elsewhere because I can't pull off a bunch of scientific jargon. My opinions are just as valid as anyone else's. I find it impossible to believe that something so perfect as our entire being and surroundings could be chance.

If we're going to be picky, we cannot know anything for sure. But still, my assertion of male tribal dominance as a possible cause of less visible mutations seems more logical, or at least better qualified, than God.

[Dislogic]

Originally posted by G. Adams+Sep 2 2003, 01:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (G. Adams @ Sep 2 2003, 01:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Nicole@Sep 2 2003, 10:43 AM Oh I have no trouble comprehending the primitive male theory. But if I may dare say so with my lack of knowlege in the field compared to some here, I beg to differ. You cannot possibly know that and I do not believe that that is how traits were passed on and humans changed into higher life forms because there were a few dominant males out there. I mean come on, there are birds out there who find a mate and stick with it. You don't know that early man was not the same. That all entertaining to the possibility that evolution might be legitimate. And please don't tell me to go elsewhere because I can't pull off a bunch of scientific jargon. My opinions are just as valid as anyone else's. I find it impossible to believe that something so perfect as our entire being and surroundings could be chance.

If we're going to be picky, we cannot know anything for sure. But still, my assertion of male tribal dominance as a possible cause of less visible mutations seems more logical, or at least better qualified, than God. [/b][/quote]
lol! i have to agree with you there...

[Nicole]

Originally posted by Dislogic@Sep 2 2003, 11:22 AM it doesent matter what the bible said... this thread isnt about the bible... its about evolution and if you would have read PooeyPants post you would see the fact of evolution. read the article he posted, im sure you will be enlightened.

If you're going to poke fun at it, sure it does. And that's a matter of personal opinion regardless.

[Dislogic]

i dont see where i was poking fun at it... if you would please let me know then i can make a full comment on what you just said.