Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Leachy · Jun 9, 2009, 01:32 am

One of the problems with this debate is that different issues exist and they get confused. This means that arguments become complicated and end up going nowhere because both sides are arguing about something different. There are several issues involved when it comes to abortion but the main two are:

Is the fetus human? and Is is right for a woman to kill a fetus if it is?

very few people believe the fetus should be saved if its not human.

These are separate issues and i challenge anyone here to prove a pro choice case in either one. I am 18 and have debated at an international level for Australia, while I'm sure your not shivering in your boots because of that I want to let you know my background. I have dedicated my entire life though brief it may be to social justice. I am in nearly every regard left wing except on abortion. It seems a great tragedy that so many people who work for the greater good have chosen the wrong side. I have been called a Racist, Sexist, a Fanatic and a bigot. I know that none of these are true. I will fight to the death to ensure the unborn have a voice and will never give up the fight. I am Pro life, ALL LIFE not just that of the fetus. If a woman's life is in danger than i agree no one should force her to give her life to save another, nor should anyone prevent her from doing so if she wishes. This also means i find terrorist tactics absurd and revolting as they contradict the entire pro life premise.

Well that's me, except my challenge if you will.

SoylentGreen · Jun 9, 2009, 02:41 am

Quote:

Leachy
very few people believe the fetus should be saved if its not human.

Gee! you mean there is an alternative to a fetus being human, Like it could be a vulcan or perhaps a cute little doggie instead?

crimethinker · Jun 9, 2009, 02:53 am

The fetus is human. I don't think anybody disputes the species of the thing. What is disputed is whether the fetus is a person, or a "human being," i.e. a homo sapiens. I think a fetus is neither; I would term it "a potential human being," since it has not been born and as such is but a part of a human being, like a finger or sperm. That being the case, the mother should be able to do whatever she wants with it . . . terminate it, birth it, et al.

Leachy · Jun 9, 2009, 04:15 am

Id like to if I may challenge this arbitrary line you've chosen and this distinction you make between a human and a person. Surely aren't we all ultimately only "Homo Sapiens" Whats the difference between me and a fetus. Why am I more human then a fetus, is it because I'm older? Surely all humans are entitled to basic humans rights and shouldn't be discriminated against merely because they don't meet your strict criteria of person hood. This argument is bazaar its like arguing that we can kill them because they don't have a soul, I realize that's not what you mean .buts it a comparable case. Because in both cases your using philosophical and abstract reasoning rather than rely on a the scientiffic facts.

I'm sure You will come out with a list of things which Make a person different from a human but none of them will stand up to logical reasoning because their all based on your own ideas of person hood rather than being grounded in science.

SoylentGreen · Jun 9, 2009, 04:32 am

You seem determined to apply a strawman arguement.
Of course the fetus is human, what else could it be?
So far the only one to make a claim that it isn't is you.
Surely you have something better to offer for your side of the debate than a false claim about what the opposition is saying.

Aussie · Jun 9, 2009, 04:40 am

Quote:

Quote by: Leachy

Id like to if I may challenge this arbitrary line you've chosen and this distinction you make between a human and a person. Surely aren't we all ultimately only "Homo Sapiens" Whats the difference between me and a fetus. Why am I more human then a fetus, is it because I'm older? Surely all humans are entitled to basic humans rights and shouldn't be discriminated against merely because they don't meet your strict criteria of person hood. This argument is bazaar its like arguing that we can kill them because they don't have a soul, I realize that's not what you mean .buts it a comparable case. Because in both cases your using philosophical and abstract reasoning rather than rely on a the scientiffic facts.

I'm sure You will come out with a list of things which Make a person different from a human but none of them will stand up to logical reasoning because their all based on your own ideas of person hood rather than being grounded in science.

There has to be a line, otherwise as my mate would say "i've destroyed civilisations across the chest of my wife!" People done for masturbating would be done for murder. So there has to be some point after the sperm and egg mate where they are defined as human beings and not just a collection of cells. And there starts the very long debate...

ninjacolin · Jun 9, 2009, 04:50 am

If it were not up to the mother to make that early, ultimate decision as to whether or not a fetus ought to develop into a conscious living being in the world as we know it... it would be up to you, leachy.

And what is your opinion compared to hers?

Leachy · Jun 9, 2009, 05:18 am

I agree their does have to be a line drawn but what i ask is for us to base that line on science and nothing else. Conception is the point where a new Human begins to develop and is the most rational and scientific point for us to say that life begins. Be my guest suggest others and ill show you why they don't stack up.

Leachy · Jun 9, 2009, 05:23 am

You missed the point of what i was trying to say. I was pointing out that saying that someone thinks something isn't an argument. I believe my case is stronger and i back it up with argument and logical reasoning. If you believe your opinion to be right than i cordially invite you to do the same. Lets ague about what is right rather than making the pointless claim Im right because i am.

Leachy · Jun 9, 2009, 05:26 am

Soylent Green i apologize if you mistook my post. All i was trying to do was point out two issues which iv faced when arguing with pro choice' adocates. I agree with you that A fetus is human and your right what else could it be. What i was trying to stop was a confusion of the issues. I didn't mean to assert that it was your belief.

princessme23 · Jun 9, 2009, 05:35 am

The womb is essentially an egg, it belongs to the woman.
If a baby is born at 24 weeks, it could survive but theres no guareentee. If the baby is born before this it will die as it needs the mother to survive. therefore, if you have the baby through abortion or miscarriage before that said time, it is not essentially a life. It cannot breath on its on, it cannot feed, it cannot survive.
Wheres your arguement?

The fetus needs the mother til it is strong enough to go it alone, therefore it is the mothers responsibility what happens to the fetus before the age of life.
Before 24 weeks, the baby has no chance of qualifying as 'human' as it cannot function like a human does on the outside and is solely only a part of the mother.

Though I would like to see the abortion limit reduced to 19 weeks where possible,, unless medical or other serious reasons.

Clementine · Jun 9, 2009, 06:33 am

None of that matters. A woman owns reproductive rights over her body and it is up to her.
Pro Choice all the way!!!!!

SoylentGreen · Jun 9, 2009, 06:50 am

Quote:

Quote by: Leachy

I agree their does have to be a line drawn but what i ask is for us to base that line on science and nothing else. Conception is the point where a new Human begins to develop and is the most rational and scientific point for us to say that life begins. Be my guest suggest others and ill show you why they don't stack up.

Why would anyone suggest that conception is not the point when a new life begins? Again you present another false arguement. No one denies the fetus is alive. At the point of conception the cells begin to divide, a new life is been created, If it wasn't then it would be a miscarriage.

So now that we have the science or in this case the biology of it all under wraps and all agree that a new life is there, would you care to give us your emotional based reasons for being against an abortion rather than keep taking stabs in the dark as to what our reasons are for being pro abortion?

And i say emotional as apposed to scientific because i strongly doubt you can give a scientific based reason for being against abortion.

princessme23 · Jun 9, 2009, 07:24 am

Quote:

None of that matters. A woman owns reproductive rights over her body and it is up to her.
Pro Choice all the way!!!!!

Apparently it matters to pro lifers who want their hands on your womb!

Leachy · Jun 9, 2009, 07:44 am

There is no more pivotal moment in the subsequent growth and development of a human being than when 23 chromosomes of the father join with 23 chromosomes of the mother to form a unique, 46-chromosomed individual, with a gender, who had previously simply not existed. This is a human being the very youngest form but a human being none the less.

Aussie · Jun 9, 2009, 07:50 am

Quote:

Quote by: Leachy

There is no more pivotal moment in the subsequent growth and development of a human being than when 23 chromosomes of the father join with 23 chromosomes of the mother to form a unique, 46-chromosomed individual, with a gender, who had previously simply not existed. This is a human being the very youngest form but a human being none the less.

So this is human to you?

Leachy · Jun 9, 2009, 08:07 am

Yes, oh come now your not going to discriminate on bais of size are you.

**Cruella** · Jun 9, 2009, 09:07 am

Why not? Do you cut your hair? Bite your nails? Scratch your skin? They're all human cells and DNA, why kill those and not others?

Chinook · Jun 9, 2009, 09:34 am

Quote:

Quote by: Leachy

Is the fetus human?

I think it's on its way to becoming a human. I definitely don't think it is worthy of being a person, and I don't think anyone should create an arbitrary line determining when a foetus is a foetus or not.

Even if a foetus is human, it shouldn't mean a woman is forced to surrender control of her body to someone else or the government.

Quote:

and Is is right for a woman to kill a fetus if it is?

Even if a foetus is human, it shouldn't mean a woman is forced to surrender control of her body to someone else or the government.

Quote:

very few people believe the fetus should be saved if its not human.

Have any examples or stats to back this up......?

Quote:

Well that's me, except my challenge if you will.

Except your challenge...... hmmm... that means.....??
Oh wait, you mean accept.

Leachy · Jun 9, 2009, 09:42 am

Quote:

Quote by: Cruella

Why not? Do you cut your hair? Bite your nails? Scratch your skin? They're all human cells and DNA, why kill those and not others?

None of those are growing human beings

Jun 9, 2009, 01:32 am	#1 (permalink)
Leachy Sedimentary Rock Posts: 21	Abortion challenge One of the problems with this debate is that different issues exist and they get confused. This means that arguments become complicated and end up going nowhere because both sides are arguing about something different. There are several issues involved when it comes to abortion but the main two are: Is the fetus human? and Is is right for a woman to kill a fetus if it is? very few people believe the fetus should be saved if its not human. These are separate issues and i challenge anyone here to prove a pro choice case in either one. I am 18 and have debated at an international level for Australia, while I'm sure your not shivering in your boots because of that I want to let you know my background. I have dedicated my entire life though brief it may be to social justice. I am in nearly every regard left wing except on abortion. It seems a great tragedy that so many people who work for the greater good have chosen the wrong side. I have been called a Racist, Sexist, a Fanatic and a bigot. I know that none of these are true. I will fight to the death to ensure the unborn have a voice and will never give up the fight. I am Pro life, ALL LIFE not just that of the fetus. If a woman's life is in danger than i agree no one should force her to give her life to save another, nor should anyone prevent her from doing so if she wishes. This also means i find terrorist tactics absurd and revolting as they contradict the entire pro life premise. Well that's me, except my challenge if you will.

Jun 9, 2009, 04:50 am	#7 (permalink)
ninjacolin huh? Location: Winnipeg Posts: 149	If it were not up to the mother to make that early, ultimate decision as to whether or not a fetus ought to develop into a conscious living being in the world as we know it... it would be up to you, leachy. And what is your opinion compared to hers? Please note that your inability to agree with me serves as evidence of a deterministic universe

Jun 9, 2009, 05:35 am	#11 (permalink)
princessme23 Igneous Magma Location: sunny Norfolk, farming county! Posts: 256	The womb is essentially an egg, it belongs to the woman. If a baby is born at 24 weeks, it could survive but theres no guareentee. If the baby is born before this it will die as it needs the mother to survive. therefore, if you have the baby through abortion or miscarriage before that said time, it is not essentially a life. It cannot breath on its on, it cannot feed, it cannot survive. Wheres your arguement? The fetus needs the mother til it is strong enough to go it alone, therefore it is the mothers responsibility what happens to the fetus before the age of life. Before 24 weeks, the baby has no chance of qualifying as 'human' as it cannot function like a human does on the outside and is solely only a part of the mother. Though I would like to see the abortion limit reduced to 19 weeks where possible,, unless medical or other serious reasons. Hair colour has no effect on your overall intelligence!

Jun 9, 2009, 06:33 am	#12 (permalink)
Clementine Hot Lava Location: Vermont Posts: 921	None of that matters. A woman owns reproductive rights over her body and it is up to her. Pro Choice all the way!!!!! You can find me if you want me in the garden unless it's pouring down with rain.

Jun 9, 2009, 02:53 am	#3 (permalink)
crimethinker Dispensable Location: Sedona, Arizona Posts: 80	The fetus is human. I don't think anybody disputes the species of the thing. What is disputed is whether the fetus is a person, or a "human being," i.e. a homo sapiens. I think a fetus is neither; I would term it "a potential human being," since it has not been born and as such is but a part of a human being, like a finger or sperm. That being the case, the mother should be able to do whatever she wants with it . . . terminate it, birth it, et al.

Jun 9, 2009, 04:15 am	#4 (permalink)
Leachy Sedimentary Rock Posts: 21	Id like to if I may challenge this arbitrary line you've chosen and this distinction you make between a human and a person. Surely aren't we all ultimately only "Homo Sapiens" Whats the difference between me and a fetus. Why am I more human then a fetus, is it because I'm older? Surely all humans are entitled to basic humans rights and shouldn't be discriminated against merely because they don't meet your strict criteria of person hood. This argument is bazaar its like arguing that we can kill them because they don't have a soul, I realize that's not what you mean .buts it a comparable case. Because in both cases your using philosophical and abstract reasoning rather than rely on a the scientiffic facts. I'm sure You will come out with a list of things which Make a person different from a human but none of them will stand up to logical reasoning because their all based on your own ideas of person hood rather than being grounded in science.

Jun 9, 2009, 04:32 am	#5 (permalink)
SoylentGreen Volcanic Erupter Posts: 6,234	You seem determined to apply a strawman arguement. Of course the fetus is human, what else could it be? So far the only one to make a claim that it isn't is you. Surely you have something better to offer for your side of the debate than a false claim about what the opposition is saying.

Jun 9, 2009, 05:18 am	#8 (permalink)
Leachy Sedimentary Rock Posts: 21	I agree their does have to be a line drawn but what i ask is for us to base that line on science and nothing else. Conception is the point where a new Human begins to develop and is the most rational and scientific point for us to say that life begins. Be my guest suggest others and ill show you why they don't stack up.

Jun 9, 2009, 05:23 am	#9 (permalink)
Leachy Sedimentary Rock Posts: 21	You missed the point of what i was trying to say. I was pointing out that saying that someone thinks something isn't an argument. I believe my case is stronger and i back it up with argument and logical reasoning. If you believe your opinion to be right than i cordially invite you to do the same. Lets ague about what is right rather than making the pointless claim Im right because i am.

Jun 9, 2009, 05:26 am	#10 (permalink)
Leachy Sedimentary Rock Posts: 21	Soylent Green i apologize if you mistook my post. All i was trying to do was point out two issues which iv faced when arguing with pro choice' adocates. I agree with you that A fetus is human and your right what else could it be. What i was trying to stop was a confusion of the issues. I didn't mean to assert that it was your belief.

Jun 9, 2009, 07:44 am	#15 (permalink)
Leachy Sedimentary Rock Posts: 21	There is no more pivotal moment in the subsequent growth and development of a human being than when 23 chromosomes of the father join with 23 chromosomes of the mother to form a unique, 46-chromosomed individual, with a gender, who had previously simply not existed. This is a human being the very youngest form but a human being none the less.

Jun 9, 2009, 08:07 am	#17 (permalink)
Leachy Sedimentary Rock Posts: 21	Yes, oh come now your not going to discriminate on bais of size are you.

Jun 9, 2009, 09:07 am	#18 (permalink)
Cruella Moderator Posts: 3,747	Why not? Do you cut your hair? Bite your nails? Scratch your skin? They're all human cells and DNA, why kill those and not others?