Witnesses of Christ?

[LDS]

I come with a question to other Christians, why do you not accept the book of mormon? It seems do me you should be seeking for as many witnesses of Christ as can be found, especially now when the religion is being attacked so severely.

Why is so difficult to accept the restoration of prophets to the world?

[Gorgo]

Might want to read this before you answer:

http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=367

[LDS]

Apparently due to a lack of purity, Joseph was not allowed to recover the plates until four years later,

Stopped there, bashing for the sake of bashing. He shows already a lack of understanding. Joseph was told to wait for four years because people were not ready for it, during this time Joseph was shown the events recorded in the plates, that way when he was translating he could have a basic understanding of what is going on.

If Joseph Smith did restore the true gospel of Christ to the earth, would satan not do all that he could to discredit such a great event? The persecution of Mormons has been around since Joseph was told that none of the churches were true. The persectution has only become worse, yet the membership of this church swells more and more rapidly. Amazing, isn't it?

If you want to look for the truth, let us turn to the bible itself.

Daniel prophesied of a stone which would be cut from a mountain without hands, and would roll over the whole earth.
http://scriptures.lds.org/dan/2/35-44

Isaiah further prophecied of men who would take a book to a learned man, the learned would say I cannot read a sealed book. http://scriptures.lds.org/isa/29/11#11 http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1/65

[Gorgo]

Well, this is all irrelevant, the writer said "apparently," but since you've said that, where did Joseph Smith explain that? Do you have a source?

Originally posted by LDS, Stopped there, bashing for the sake of bashing. He shows already a lack of understanding. Joseph was told to wait for four years because people were not ready for it, during this time Joseph was shown the events recorded in the plates, that way when he was translating he could have a basic understanding of what is going on.

[Autophage]

Perhaps other Christians refuse to accept the Book of Mormon because they were raised in a different tradition. I've done some research (though I'll be the first to say not a lot) on said church and it has sound values in tune with what many others (Christians and non-Christians alike) but the story behind the gold plates and all can sound a little absurd to those who have no expectation for the truth of it.

[LDS]

where did Joseph Smith explain that? Do you have a source?

http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1/53-54

but the story behind the gold plates and all can sound a little absurd to those who have no expectation for the truth of it.

Didnt Moses part the Red Sea? Didnt Christ heal the blind and the sick with a word? Do we not worship a god of miracles?

[jkephart]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these are some other things mormons believe:
-God turned the American Indians' skin dark for being evil
-Any good Mormon can become a god and have his own planet in the afterlife
-that their special underwear protects them

Also those interested may want to Google "Mountain Meadow Massacre."

[Gorgo]

Don't see where he gave a reason. Could you point out the paragraph or verse?

Moses and Jesus both probably never existed.

53 I made an attempt to take them out, but was forbidden by the messenger, and was again informed that the time for bringing them forth had not yet arrived, neither would it, until four years from that time; but he told me that I should come to that place precisely in one year from that time, and that he would there meet with me, and that I should continue to do so until the time should come for obtaining the plates.

It doesn't say that the people were not ready here. Where does it say that?

Originally posted by LDS, http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1/53-54 Didnt Moses part the Red Sea? Didnt Christ heal the blind and the sick with a word? Do we not worship a god of miracles?

[orgaelin]

Quite simply, Christians don't accept the book or Mormon because then they would be Mormons, not Christians!

There are probably plenty of converts who have crossed over. I know plenty of people who have switched between major faiths.

The difference is whether you're talking about individuals, who demonstrably can come to accept the BOM, or whether you mean Christianity as a whole.

Christianity as a whole will never accept the BOM. That's not the way religion works. You have to remember that religion is not about truth, it's about definition. Christianity is defined by a set of beliefs about life and the heavens. Change the beliefs and the religion of Christianity is gone.

Bottom line: religions begin with a set definition. Change the definition and it's a new religion with a new definition. People don't like change, religion abhores it.

[LDS]

-God turned the American Indians' skin dark for being evil

He cursed the Lamanites for their treatment of the Nephites.

-Any good Mormon can become a god and have his own planet in the afterlife

Is it so strange to think? Dont children grow to be like their parents?

-that their special underwear protects them

In a way yes, our marriage vows are a bit different from the world's. If you break those covenants, your in trouble. So we wear garments to remind us of those vows ( In order to commit adultery we would have to take them off, kinda hard to break a vow when its staring you in the face, isn't it?)

Mountain Meadow Massacre.

A few things you should know about the massacre which are often times left out.

Brigham Young turned the instigator over to the government ( he was shot).
Brigham Young did not tell these people to do it, they were acting of their own accord, not by the church's.
After the persecutions the saints suffered in coming to the Salt Lake valley, many feared that a repeat would occur as more settlers came. It not so hard to see why the instigators panicked and did what they did.

then they would be Mormons, not Christians

Mormons are Christians. We believe in Christ the same as other Christians.
Just because we have a book relating the account of Christs visit to the Americas makes us non-christians?

[peace_hawk]

Um... LDS since Christians have belived certain things about God for 1800 years before mormonism was cooked up and then Mormonism says different things (even if they use the code word "Jesus") doesn't mean we have to accept golden tablets written in hieroglyphics (sp?) that don't exist anymore. It is the same reason Christians are not Muslims. They don't buy the so-called latter day "revelation." Since we don't believe it we are not mormons just like we are not muslims.

[LDS]

They don't buy the so-called latter day "revelation."

I know they dont, but why? Dont they believe that "god is the same yesterday, today, and forever"? Or that "God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secrets unto his servants the prophets"?

even if they use the code word "Jesus")

You'll have to explain that one to me.

Christians have belived certain things about God for 1800 years

If they were the truth though wouldnt that time be a glorious period of light rather than the 'dark ages'?

[Pooeypants]

Originally posted by LDS, Is it so strange to think? Dont children grow to be like their parents?

So any good Mormom who has ascended to become a deity can also be worshipping then?

[Suburbanite]

Who is any christian to question the validity of a text?

[LDS]

So any good Mormom who has ascended to become a deity can also be worshipping then?

I dont understand the question, but we don't ascend to become gods, thats not until judgement. Right now those who are dead are in a spirit world working at bringing the gospel to those who never were able to recieve it in their lifetimes.

Do you guys know of the Plan of Salvation/Happiness?

[Apologist]

Originally posted by Suburbanite, Who is any christian to question the validity of a text?

I hope your not questioning the historical validity of the bible. Every year more and more FACTS are becoming evident of the bible. King David was never in any other scrolls or writings but that of the bible. But just recently The found a tabliture speaking of King David and a brief background which affirms the bible. If you want facts of the bible read The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell. I have also found the foundation of Mormon belief to be a little odd. Because I know how religion can be attacked, and how this only affirms the beliefs of the Christian God, in which I believe, my first question for Mormons would be the importance of the BOM. If it was written by an Angel, what was its purpose? I thought Jesus and the prophets explained everything quite clearly. How to ease life, how to inherit eternal life, how to please God and how to deal with sin are all in the Bible. I don't really like questioning a religion that grounds itself on the very foundation of my own beliefs but I feel it is pertinent. So again, what does the BOM have to teach us that the bible didn't already say?

[orgaelin]

Apologist,

The BOM is, ironically, aimed at fulfilling your name. It is an apologists' effort to explain away all the errors and contradictions in the bible to create a new faith where one is not required to hush the inner voice of reason simply to fit in.

But it failed.

This happens all the time. Can't you see that Christianity itself did exactly the same thing? It took the Jewish religion, mixed in loads of paganism, flouted all the original jewish laws, promised forgiveness and eternal life...

Basically it popularised it.

Religions just get remarketed like this. It happens. Greater numbers means more money for the leaders of the religions. Fewer numbers means less money. Less money means less power. Less power and money means "Oh Christ we're going under, we'd better get more liberal to attract more suckers!"

~ Org.

[LDS]

If it was written by an Angel,

It was delivered by an angel, it was written by prophets much like the ones in the Bible.

what was its purpose?

How many variations of baptism are there in Christianity? How many views are there of what god is? How many general variations are there? How can they all be correct?



The Book of Mormon was preserved to escape these changes made to the gospel, restoring it to what it was during Christ's time. It contains the fulness of the gospel, as well as another testament that Jesus is the Christ, appearing to the inhabitants of ancient America in his resurrected glory.


Is it worse to have two books telling us the correct way to escape sin, and please god?

But it failed.

Orgaelin, you will believe what you will. You have your agency. Are you sure it failed? Twelve million members worldwide and growing at an extraordinary rate doesnt seem so much of a failure to me.

[orgaelin]

Twelve million members worldwide and growing at an extraordinary rate doesnt seem so much of a failure to me

Independently verified by whom, may I ask? What source, other than your own church, can you give for the figure of 12 million? Scientology claims to have 8 million, but sensible independent estimates sugest the figure is barely even 1 million.

And I wasn't suggesting the church or religion of mormonism is a failure... simply that the attempt at making up for all the problems in the bible failed.

I wonder if you and I will ever find something to agree on?!

~ Org.

[orgaelin]

Let me admit this and make you smile...

I like the BOM. I like the idea. I think it is daring. Also it bears the hallmark of modern day truths - ridicule by the establishment.

The best kept secrets are always to be found where the powers that be are pointing their fingers and laughing. They point their fingers and ridicule to put people off.

For example, how much have we heard about 9/11 conspiracy theories? Loads, because they're shoving it down our throats in the hope we wont swallow any of it. They make a big song and dance about it, but ridicule it at the same time. Also, another tactic they use: If you try and force a kid to eat bags and bags of sweets, it wont be long before he doesn't want any more sweets. Same with the truth.

But I'm still not quite convinved by Mormonism. Something is wrong with it, and I don't know what.

~ Org.