Witnesses of Christ?

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Technosoul, In the long run if you are to come to know the truth you must first convert to the attitude of "knowing nothing" so that you can be reborn form that unlearned orgin of perception.

I would also add that at a minimum come to know all the sides as well as no side at all as best as you can and thus be informed by it. It is the only honest thing to do. Otherwise admit ignorance and keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut so you will not let the rest of the world know of your profound condition of ignorance. Proselytizing when you do not know of all the other religions in the world that you are implicitly advocating against is just ignorance parading as knowledge. It is how faith makes liars out of all that practice it.

Starboy

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by Starboy,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starboy,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Technosoul, In the long run if you are to come to know the truth you must first convert to the attitude of  "knowing nothing" so that you can be reborn form that unlearned orgin of perception.

I would also add that at a minimum come to know all the sides as well as no side at all as best as you can and thus be informed by it. It is the only honest thing to do. Otherwise admit ignorance and keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut so you will not let the rest of the world know of your profound condition of ignorance. Proselytizing when you do not know of all the other religions in the world that you are implicitly advocating against is just ignorance parading as knowledge. It is how faith makes liars out of all that practice it.

Starboy[/b][/quote]

Yeah, but avoid those books about why Wicca and other faiths are evil because I know Christian book publishers have many such books to "train" their people about the other religions. Such partisan publicaitons would be like learning about pot form a governmental pamplet. Beleave you me that the Mormon chruch is teaching their missionaries about what to say in order to bring the conversation back to their objective. They are also trained to expect deceptions and so they think they must avoid really understanding any other teaching, because of the paranoid mind set they have been molded into.

Technosoul.

[Starboy]

No I would read as much as you could, even those hate filled propaganda books put out by Christians. All of it is evidence about the religions. Religions that preach love thy neighbor and publish such screeds should automatically be considered suspect. If its adherents can't practice what they preach then why should anyone listen to them. You will not know they are a bunch of hypocrites if you ignore the hypocrisy.

Starboy

[admiraladz]

sorry for the off topic

I'd like to thank Technosoul for his time and effort that he has put into his posts. Not only are they well researched and referenced, but they are also insightful and thought provoking. LDS too has provided not just a counter-point to argue over our beliefs (or against his) but he has clearly and openly stated his case, cross-referenced and been nothing but a perfect statesman for the Mormons. In fact his calmness and clarity have actually got me thinking I ought to have more of an open mind toward the Mormon faith. Maybe I ought to read their book.

Enlightenment. n 1: education that results in understanding and the spread of knowledge

[LDS]

To convert you must debate

Im reminded of Brigham Young's conversion. He speaks of having a missionary, with no talent for public speaking who bore a simple, and very plain testimony. The testimony was so impressed upon Brigham that he was baptized.

You must understand how we know our church is true. It is the Book of Mormon promise. Moroni in his final chapter gives us a recipe that we may know the truthfulness of the book of Mormon.

I know that the Book of Mormon is the word of god. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of god. I know we have a living prophet.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by LDS, You must understand how we know our church is true. It is the Book of Mormon promise. Moroni in his final chapter gives us a recipe that we may know the truthfulness of the book of Mormon. I know that the Book of Mormon is the word of god. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of god. I know we have a living prophet.

All of this is taken by you on faith. You could just as easily have used the same faith to have the same fervor in any religion that you do not currently believe in. They all have their holy writings. They are all convinced of their miracles. They are convinced that their revelation is direct from god and yet none of them has anything more or less than you do. Even so, you could still be right. However, there is no reason for me to think that your faith is any different than any other faith. If you have not tried to explore and be faithful in any if not most of the other religions in the world that you would have everyone discount then why should anyone even consider your recommendation? Yours is an ignorant recommendation. A man that claims that his wine is the best in the world yet has not tasted any of the other wines of the world, let alone most of them, is probably full of shit. The funny and sad part about it is that you are so full of shit that you have even fooled yourself.

Starboy

Wasn't Smith proven to be a fraud?..And these gold plates??... Where the hell are they??...you'd have thought that they'd be enshrined in Salt Lake City for all the faithful to see...not trying to disprove it...but there are some serious questions the Mormons can't answer.

[Starboy]

ACause, the plates don't matter if you have faith. If you have faith you will be willing to accept any story that explains their absence. Or even believe that are not absent but hidden in a safe place that only the elect know of. Faith gives you the balls to say that something is "true" when you have no idea if it is true at all. It would be one thing if an adherent said there are stories about the plates that I have heard. Or even there are people that have told me that they have seen the plates. That would be honest. But no, they will tell you that the plates are real in every sense. They would ask you to accept a claim that if made in a court of law would be considered hearsay and the judge would ask the jury to ignore it. Yet they maintain that it must not only be not ignored but that one must believe in it utterly. This is all possible because the faith they are talking about is just a fancy word for double standard. They want you to lower your standards for their beliefs so you will be convinced by them however they want you to raise your standards for any other belief so you will find them unconvincing. And of course not only are they unwilling to do for you what they ask of you but they will advocate their religion with little to no experience with any other religion on the planet. It amazes me that these people are not rounded up and tarred and feathered and rode out of town on a rail. The crap they are pulling is worse then the nonsense that Enron executives pulled. At least what they claimed to own does exist in reality even if the amounts and locations they claimed to have did not.

Starboy

[kharmajunkie]

Originally posted by ACause, Wasn't Smith proven to be a fraud?..And these gold plates??... Where the hell are they??...you'd have thought that they'd be enshrined in Salt Lake City for all the faithful to see...not trying to disprove it...but there are some serious questions the Mormons can't answer.

Joseph Smith was illiterate and worked for a printer in NY right before his
"spiritual awakening". I'll look for the book I read this in so I can source it
but long story short; Smith's boss's version of the story is that he wrote a novel in which Jesus spent some time on the North American continent.
Joseph Smith based the religion on a plaguerized, fictional account of Jesus in America if his ex boss's account is true.

[Technosoul]

Okay you got the miricle of the sea gulls - but was it a miricle or just something those birds would do anyway if a bunch of fat bugs we obtainable for food?

You got "vision" that the Native Americans were really a Jewish tribe that had come to Ameirca (somehow based on a biblical story about some "lost tribes" that left the holy lands to unknown places. And they had brought with them some special written knowledge, which Joesph found out about after talking with the Indians. But then how come the Natives did not use writing as method of commuication from generation to generation? If they came here with books or written ariticles why did they give up "writing" and did not have any books?

Just asking but doubt if I get any answers.

Technosoul.

Originally posted by Technosoul, Okay you got the miricle of the sea gulls - but was it a miricle or just something those birds would do anyway if a bunch of fat bugs we obtainable for food? You got "vision" that the Native Americans were really a Jewish tribe that had come to Ameirca (somehow based on a biblical story about some "lost tribes" that left the holy lands to unknown places. And they had brought with them some special written knowledge, which Joesph found out about after talking with the Indians. But then how come the Natives did not use writing as method of commuication from generation to generation? If they came here with books or written ariticles why did they give up "writing" and did not have any books? Just asking but doubt if I get any answers. Technosoul.

Yeah...that bit bout being descendant of a Jewish tribe got me laughing...I mean...there were over 500 separate and distinct languages and sovereign nations spread thruout North, Central, and South America, and to my knowledge..I have clue how to speak Yiddish.

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by LDS, Im reminded of Brigham Young's conversion. He speaks of having a missionary, with no talent for public speaking who bore a simple, and very plain testimony. The testimony was so impressed upon Brigham that he was baptized. You must understand how we know our church is true. It is the Book of Mormon promise. Moroni in his final chapter gives us a recipe that we may know the truthfulness of the book of Mormon. I know that the Book of Mormon is the word of god. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of god. I know we have a living prophet.

Okay I read the "promise". It basically said if you have faith then then it will be revealed to you that his book is right, if you have no faith in Christ then you cannot know if the book is true or not, but "woe" for you will die in your sin and will not get to go to heaven.

And so, the promise is that if you do end up believing that the book of Mormn is the truth then that means you got faith, otherwise if you do not think the Mornon book is the truth then that is a sign your faith is lacking.

Meaning that according to how much faith you have in the Mormon book will determine if you have faith in the Holy Ghost, Christ, the Bible, and the promise of heaven in the afterlife.

So read the book and test your faith.

Ever study the concept of "cirular reasoning"?

However if I can contact a Holy Ghost to show me what to believe or what to do then why would I need also a book on that topic, If I can make direct contact with the Holy Host then why do I still need a middle man like Joesph Smith?

LSD people, answer that.

Technosoul.

[LDS]

But then how come the Natives did not use writing as method of commuication from generation to generation? If they came here with books or written ariticles why did they give up "writing" and did not have any books?

This is answered in the book.Simply put they rejected the records and followed after their own precepts.

Faith is a prerequisite to know the truth, it is given earlier in the book why.
"And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?" http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/32/19

If you do not have faith, or a desire to know the truth it will not be given to you. It is far from circular, twist it as you may.

However if I can contact a Holy Ghost to show me what to believe or what to do then why would I need also a book on that topic

Would you contact or know of the holy ghost if the book had not been written?

[Starboy]

Originally posted by LDS, Would you contact or know of the holy ghost if the book had not been written?

You act as if yours were the only "holy book" ever. You talk as if your faith is somehow different from the faith needed for any other religion. What is there about your religion that is any different than any other religion? What do you have that sets you apart from any other religion? Do mormons stop getting sick? Are there no mormons in jail? Does their shit stop stinking? Where is the magical difference?

Starboy

[m5lange1]

It is arrogance to believe one knows the mind of God.
It is a massive step beyond arrogance to believe one's self to be unique in that knowledge.

The mind of God is unfathomable to the human consciousness. At best we know about God.

I am reminded of the story of the blind men feeling the elephant and each discribing it. "as a wall from the side", "as a rope from the tail", "as a spike from the tusk", "as a snake from the trunk."

To believe one has more comprehension of God than a blind man does of an elephant is presumptuous to say the least. So while you may describe God as a wall since you are feeling the side, be cautious of calling the man feeling the trunk foolish for describing a snake.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by m5lange1, To believe one has more comprehension of God than a blind man does of an elephant is presumptuous to say the least. So while you may describe God as a wall since you are feeling the side, be cautious of calling the man feeling the trunk foolish for describing a snake.

You would have a point if just about every religion on the planet wasn’t confident in telling people what god is and telling them that what the other religions think about god is wrong (all based on faith). If they actually thought as you seem to think they should, there would be no proselytizing. I present as evidence and witness, the witness that is witnessing here.

Starboy

I'm still waiting on the Mormons to tell us Indians when it'll be ok to use Yiddish again...lol

[Starboy]

Originally posted by ACause, I'm still waiting on the Mormons to tell us Indians when it'll be ok to use Yiddish again...lol

Oy, vill you become a doctor or a lawyer?

Starboy

Originally posted by Starboy,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starboy,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-ACause, I'm still waiting on the Mormons to tell us Indians when it'll be ok to use Yiddish again...lol

Oy, vill you become a doctor or a lawyer?

Starboy[/b][/quote]

I'm thinking a rabbi..oh wait...I've not been informed if the tribe I was part of had members in the Sanhedrin...we might have been simple pot-makers...

Ya schmuck...hehe

[Starboy]

Originally posted by ACause, I'm thinking a rabbi..oh wait...I've not been informed if the tribe I was part of had members in the Sanhedrin...we might have been simple pot-makers... Ya schmuck...hehe

How could anyone think that Native Americans were Jews? None of you keeps Kosher.

Starboy