Witnesses of Christ?

[LDS]

I wonder if you and I will ever find something to agree on?!

Let me admit this and make you smile... I like the BOM.

Theres something we have in common, I dont know I imagine we agree on many things, just not in the area of religion.

But I'm still not quite convinved by Mormonism. Something is wrong with it, and I don't know what.

When questioning the words of Newton, Galileo, Einstein you dont fully understand the truthfullsness of their studies until you perform an experiment.

(I know you hate when I do this) In Alma he calls us to 'experiment upon his words.'
"But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words."

Any who desire to the know the truth can know the truth, but we must desire it beforehand. God will not compel us to know the truth.

[orgaelin]

Any who desire to the know the truth can know the truth, but we must desire it beforehand. God will not compel us to know the truth

Now there is something else we agree on!

[Inquisitor]

I come with a question to other Christians, why do you not accept the book of mormon? It seems do me you should be seeking for as many witnesses of Christ as can be found, especially now when the religion is being attacked so severely.

LDS, being an Orthox Christian I am happy to offer my opinion on the question raised.
In fact the answer to your question is in the Bible.

Matthew 7.15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 24.11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24.24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Clearly founders of Mormovnic church are false prophets. Now I don't have the in depth knowledge of mormonic doctrine ( too many heresy is around ), yet I will try to prove my point by using limited information you provided.

-Any good Mormon can become a god and have his own planet in the afterlife Is it so strange to think? Dont children grow to be like their parents?

Deadly sin of pride in its worst.
Timothy 3.6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

How many variations of baptism are there in Christianity? How many views are there of what god is? How many general variations are there? How can they all be correct?

They can't possibly be. Variations of Christianity are different forms of heresy. E.g. catholicism - latin heresy. If one has faith and technical ability to identify heretics, he is immune.

Is it worse to have two books telling us the correct way to escape sin, and please god?

Yes it is.
Revelation 22.18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

So in my humble opinion, church of mormons is simply another form of heresy. I do of course feel sorry for those decieved and whose immortal soul is in danger.

[kharmajunkie]

Originally posted by LDS, I come with a question to other Christians, why do you not accept the book of mormon? It seems do me you should be seeking for as many witnesses of Christ as can be found, especially now when the religion is being attacked so severely.

I don't want to point out the problems with your religion LDS, others are doing that already and I'm not the "pile on" type. I'm surprised no one has called you on that last statement about your religion being under attack though; I assume you're referring to Christianity in general. Where do you get that your faith is under attack? On another thread in the political forum someone tried to play the martyr card with regards to Christianity in America and someone pointed out that about eighty percent of the country is Christian. I have to ask why you, a part of the majority in this country feels the need (like many others religious people) to act persecuted? Jesus was persecuted, not you.
There are many places in the world where people are persecuted for there religious beliefs, not here though. You can worship Jesus, Satan, Money or nothing and you won't be persecuted here so quit diluting the real persecution
that people go through with your need to be a martyr. Jesus actually was a martyr yet I don't recall any accounts where he ever acted like one.

[LDS]

Clearly founders of Mormovnic church are false prophets.

Christ also gave us a test, a way for us to discern false prophets from true prophets.

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/7/20#20

If you have not read the Book of Mormon, I suggest you read it, thoroughly and prayerfully. None of the teachings there in goes against what Christ taught.

Deadly sin of pride in its worst. Timothy 3.6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Was it prideful for Christ to claim to be the son of god?
Don't mistake us for being as the Zoramites, we believe that all people on the earth are god's children entitled to the same inheritance, as long as they seek to obey our heavenly father's commandments to the utmost of their ability.

They can't possibly be. Variations of Christianity are different forms of heresy. E.g. catholicism - latin heresy. If one has faith and technical ability to identify heretics, he is immune.

So which faith follows the true gospel?

Yes it is. Revelation 22.18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Read further.
"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

John isn't talking about the Bible (it wasnt assembled then) he was talking about the book of Revelations. We see the same thing in the Book of Mormon, they aren't talking about the book as a whole, rather of their prophecies and parts in the book.

Where do you get that your faith is under attack?

Seems to be the general consensus on these boards.

[kharmajunkie]

Originally posted by LDS, Seems to be the general consensus on these boards.

If the general consesus of you and others on this board is that Christians are oppressed and/or persecuted in America then you all should look up the definition of the word. By all means though LDS, tell me ways in which you and
your brethren are persecuted and I'll apologize for belittling your plight.

[Inquisitor]

LDS, I can see that you truly a believer in mormonic cult. This is your choice and this is why God gave us free will so we can make right or wrong choices.

I did some reading on mormonic cult. Position of Orthodox theologists on it is as follows:
http://www.roca.org/oa/89/89m.htm

However I would add my humble opinion.

True faith doesn't need recruitment, notice you will never ever meet an Orthodox missionary. Therefore if a cult needs 30,000 full-time missionaries, there is something very wrong with it.

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by orgaelin, Let me admit this and make you smile... I like the BOM. I like the idea. I think it is daring. Also it bears the hallmark of modern day truths - ridicule by the establishment. The best kept secrets are always to be found where the powers that be are pointing their fingers and laughing. They point their fingers and ridicule to put people off. For example, how much have we heard about 9/11 conspiracy theories? Loads, because they're shoving it down our throats in the hope we wont swallow any of it. They make a big song and dance about it, but ridicule it at the same time. Also, another tactic they use: If you try and force a kid to eat bags and bags of sweets, it wont be long before he doesn't want any more sweets. Same with the truth. But I'm still not quite convinved by Mormonism. Something is wrong with it, and I don't know what. ~ Org.

One thing with the Mormons is the belief that God would not reveal important stuff to everyday people like you and me, he would only reveal his message to the top guy in the chruch, because the head preacher is the only one who can announce it in the church to everyone at once during a sermon or newsletter.

They say that we can have little revelations about our personal life or our family - example: That we should look for a new job or whatever, but the big revelations that are for everyone world wide must come from the top guy in the ranking system of the church, and the top ranking person holds his title until he dies where as the lower duties are alternated all the time between the membership and so no one has more then temporary status for such appointments.

And so all us little everyday people must depend on the top person in the Chruch to tell us what God is saying or teaching concerning any new rules for the collective, only the top man in the church has the authority to provide new interpretatons for the biblical text, not you, not me (according to church dogma).

This works if you want social order where everyone is conforming to the same standards and where everyone is in agreement about the concepts of the Bible.
Such as being in the army "you do it my way" or being in a corperate busness structure where the boss is always right. However if the top guy relates the wrong interpretation and cannot be corrected for it... then what?

Is God running a dictatorship or did he set up a democratic system where we can peitition for changes that express our will? In the Bible when the people wanted to be ruled by a king instead of by Samiel we see that God ruled and favor of the will of the people, and Samiel had to appoint them a King in spite of the fact he did not really want to give up his power base, and later Samuiel went insane and gave false orders from "the voice of god in his head", and ordered thousands of innocent people to be killed without mercy.

I would like to comment also on other parts of this message chain later.

Technosoul.

[LDS]

True faith doesn't need recruitment

So the apostles after Christ's death were unnecessary?

everyone is conforming to the same standards and where everyone is in agreement about the concepts of the Bible.

Isnt that the way it should be? Or are there many correct ways(even though often times they contradict each other) to intrepret the bible?

[orgaelin]

I have to say that there are occasions when the 'majority view' is actually correct. It doesn't happen very often; mostly what the majority think is complete crap... but sometimes they're right.

The majority view of Mormonism is that it is a cult based on strict control of its members. The majority view on Jehovah's Witnesses is the same.

Neither church will ever be the only church, God's church. Both are simply man-made institutes for the process of bringing power and fortune to the few at the top.

L. Ron. Hubbard, founder is Scientology (Another cult) is rumoured to have once said, "The quickest way to make a million is to start a religion"... and that's what it's all about - money and power.

[Inquisitor]

QUOTE True faith doesn't need recruitment So the apostles after Christ's death were unnecessary?

How many apostles were there and how much they achieved. On the contrary, thousands of mormonic missionaries cannot achieve the same result, despite lack of prosecution against mormons.

It shows us clearly whose side God is on.

[LDS]

How many apostles were there and how much they achieved.On the contrary, thousands of mormonic missionaries cannot achieve the same result

Is it a competition? Has god decreed that the one with the most converts wins?

It shows us clearly whose side God is on.

Despite the out and out lies (I.E Mormons arent Christians), despite the attempts of wicked men to stop the early organization of the church (Nauvoo, The martyrdom of Joseph Smith.) it conquered and has become one of the fastest growing religions on the earth. History really does show us whose side god is on.

[orgaelin]

Right now LDS, even I'm on your side!

[Technosoul]

For additional in-depth answers and to review LSD topics and answers I present my old computer friend ....

http://boards.oprah.com/WebX?13@160.zzeUbh...3.2@.ef86faa/29

She has a wealth of information and is well schooled in the art of debate.

Technosoul.

[LDS]

"Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."


What I say in the following I say it not as your enemy. Much of it is based on Religious Truths Defined by Joseph Fielding Smith Jr.

Evidence of the apostasy.
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism" Ephesians
How many churches are there each expressing a different view, this confusion is evidence of a loss of truth.
"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1Corinthians 14:33
How many baptisms are there? Yet there is only one which has scriptural evidence.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" Romans 6:3-5
This speaks of baptism like being buried in death, Immersion was the only form of baptism practiced by the apostles.

Foundations of the Church
"...of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Ephesians 2:20

Pope, cardinal, archbishop, monsignor, reverend, None of these offices have any mention in the bible.

Loss of the word of god.

"Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Amos 3:7
Revelation was meant to always guide the church, revelation which mankind foolishly seeked to stop.

The prophets of both the old testament and new testament saw this apostasy.

"The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."
This was not a prophecy of the law of Moses, Isaiah speaks of an everlasting covenant, the law of Moses was a "Schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ"

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD" Amos 8:11

"Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves" Isaiah 29:13 Matthew 7:15

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables"
The book of Mormon sheds even greater light:
http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/28/3-16

The Restoration, Glad Tidings!

"The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth."


"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. " Daniel 2:44-45

Daniel prophecied that after the legs of iron (the Roman Empire) there would be 10 kingdoms (the 10 toes). This could not happen until 1829 A.D when the 10th world power was established. This kingdom was to be established by god, thus a restoration of revelation was necessary.

The lord speaks again, Prophets and Apostles are restored! "No longer in darkness need we roam" for man can not stop revelation any more than he can stop the mighty Mississippi. I admonish you to follow the teachings of Christ "...by their fruits ye shall know them." I ask that all here would read the book of Mormon prayerfully, seek for yourselves. You will come to know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of god, for the book of Mormon truly does testify of the Christ, it contains the fulness of the gospel in complete plainness. Please read it, if you can not find a copy go go here.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by LDS, I come with a question to other Christians, why do you not accept the book of mormon? It seems do me you should be seeking for as many witnesses of Christ as can be found, especially now when the religion is being attacked so severely. Why is so difficult to accept the restoration of prophets to the world?

I am not a Christian but here is my guess, Christians find your religion to be as convincing as you find any other religion. And visa versa I am sure.

Starboy

[LDS]

Christians find your religion to be as convincing as you find any other religion. And visa versa I am sure.

Why though? Why is modern day revelation, through modern day prophets and apostles such a hard pill to swallow?

[Starboy]

Originally posted by LDS, Why though? Why is modern day revelation, through modern day prophets and apostles such a hard pill to swallow?

It is no more diffucult to swallaw than you find it hard to swallow the modern day revalations that you do not agree with. You presume that your religion is the only religion that provides revelation, modern or otherwise.

Starboy

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by LDS, "Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother." What I say in the following I say it not as your enemy. Much of it is based on Religious Truths Defined by Joseph Fielding Smith Jr. Evidence of the apostasy. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" Ephesians How many churches are there each expressing a different view, this confusion is evidence of a loss of truth. "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1Corinthians 14:33 How many baptisms are there? Yet there is only one which has scriptural evidence. "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" Romans 6:3-5 This speaks of baptism like being buried in death, Immersion was the only form of baptism practiced by the apostles. Foundations of the Church "...of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Ephesians 2:20 Pope, cardinal, archbishop, monsignor, reverend, None of these offices have any mention in the bible. Loss of the word of god. "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Amos 3:7 Revelation was meant to always guide the church, revelation which mankind foolishly seeked to stop. The prophets of both the old testament and new testament saw this apostasy. "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." This was not a prophecy of the law of Moses, Isaiah speaks of an everlasting covenant, the law of Moses was a "Schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ" "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD" Amos 8:11 "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:" "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves" Isaiah 29:13 Matthew 7:15 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" The book of Mormon sheds even greater light: http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/28/3-16 The Restoration, Glad Tidings! "The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth." "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. " Daniel 2:44-45 Daniel prophecied that after the legs of iron (the Roman Empire) there would be 10 kingdoms (the 10 toes). This could not happen until 1829 A.D when the 10th world power was established. This kingdom was to be established by god, thus a restoration of revelation was necessary. The lord speaks again, Prophets and Apostles are restored! "No longer in darkness need we roam" for man can not stop revelation any more than he can stop the mighty Mississippi. I admonish you to follow the teachings of Christ "...by their fruits ye shall know them." I ask that all here would read the book of Mormon prayerfully, seek for yourselves. You will come to know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of god, for the book of Mormon truly does testify of the Christ, it contains the fulness of the gospel in complete plainness. Please read it, if you can not find a copy go go here.

First off you mentioned what we call the "cocoon concept" which early man observed in nature, the worm that spins a cocoon and within it is transformed into a butterfly and thus liberated from earth boundness.
There-in lies the foundations for most of our reborn theolgy. (as well as other examples seen in nature such as the season rebirthing of nature from winter's hibernation). Over the years mankind has applied those natual events into the creation of supernatual faiths.

However we have seen the dangers of that concept about baptisem in death philosophy, we saw it on 9-11 when religious men killed their self by flying airplanes into the WTC in order to gain a heavenly place via their death. Also, such a belief will encourgage people to purposely seek out abuse, to tempt non believers to attack their aggressive attempts at converting people just so they can "suffer" in the name of spreading the dogma of their church. It promotes mesery, guilt, and servatude as being a way to gain heavenly rewards later.

Baptism was simply symbolic of getting clean or pure. Like washing your hands, and taking a bath. We can use both water and fire to make things sanitary. So that was used only as an anology to direct people towards attaining clear thinking, so that the mind is like crystal clear water instead of a muddy water. Sometimes the ego takes on a false image of pride which is hypercritical and so that must die if it is to be replaced by the correct ego attitude. But such a transformation can be realized by any number of teaching methodolgies other then those that are biblically related. RE: Dr. Phil.

The stone from the mountain was what Moses came down from the mountain with, and the 10 kings are in fact the 10 Commandments which became many rules and regulations valued by humans which as spread through-out the earth as governmental laws and so forth, those 10 Commandments are the 10 rulers that church and government (the first and the 2nd Beast) has employed, which resulted in court systems for this era of judgements. Why has not that revelation befallen you?

Now Smith was an important teacher in our pioneering days, he learned to communicate with the native tribes and listen to many of thier revelations which he passed on to the white folks. Unknown to many modern Mormons their religion is a mixture of both Jewish, Christian, and Native American story telling.

Technosoul.

[LDS]

we have seen the dangers of that concept about baptisem in death philosophy

You misunderstood, its baptism like death, not baptism through death.

[qoute]Baptism was simply symbolic of getting clean or pure[/quote]

Christ viewed it as more than just a symbol.

"But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him."
Matthew 3:14-15

"...except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

Why has not that revelation befallen you?

Are you familiar with the kings entire vision?

He relates a statue, with a head of gold, breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron, and toes of iron and clay. ( all of this is found in Daniel chapter 2) Daniel proceeds to interpret the meaning, the head of gold being the kings kingdom (Babylonian 677-538 B.C), then came the breast and arms of silver or the Medo-Persian (538-331 B.C) Followed by the kingdom set up by Alexander, the Grecian or Macedonian (331-161 B.C) Belly and thighs of brass. The legs of iron was the Roman empire (161 B.C-483 A.D) out of this kingdom would arise the 10 toes, The toes could not refer to the 10 commandments because they were given man long before the collapse of the Roman Empire, not because of the collapse of the Roman Empire.

"and in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom..." (Dan 2:44)

Besides the 10 commandments being much to early to be the toes, they are not kings or kingdoms.

The remarkable thing of this vision is the accuracy, Greece became the 10 toe, or tenth kingdom in 1829 A.D 1 year before Joseph Smith formally organized the church.

Unknown to many modern Mormons their religion is a mixture of both Jewish, Christian, and Native American story telling.

That sounds about right, we do have Jewish teachings (Old testament) Christian(New Testament/Book of Mormon) and Ancient American Stories(Book of Mormon)

It is no more diffucult to swallaw than you find it hard to swallow the modern day revalations that you do not agree with. You presume that your religion is the only religion that provides revelation, modern or otherwise.

"by their fruits ye shall know them."