Heaven or Hell-??

[minorwork]

"Can't you pretend in the interest of world peace?"

If the question has a deeper meaning in it, I missed it :p.

The answer to that would be, (my answer) no.

Glad to hear it. I get so tired of those parents wanting to denut me for telling their kids the truth about Santa. Keep 'em away then. Geez. And the same goes for those who pretend they have the ABSOLUTE TRUTH in the Bible. Sigh.

[avd420]

I would like to pose a question in two parts:

1) Atheists and Agnostics:

IF you found out for SURE that there is a Hell that is even worse than we have heard and a Heaven that is even better than we have heard, would you change anything that you are doing in your life?

2) Christians and other Believers:

IF you found out for SURE that there is NO Hell after life and No Heaven after life - (when we are dead, we are dead), would you change anything that you are doing in your life?

I used to be 1) and now am 2) and have some comments, but I want to hold them to see if there are any other comments on this.

Remember I said IF - I am not arguing the existence or non-existence of either.

I'm an atheist and would not change anything I do based on that fact alone. The last thing I would ever want to do is serve a master who would be so sadistic to send his creations to hell for all of eternity. The devil wouldn't be trying to hide what he really is, so he would have more integrity in this case.

[Dex]

I would like to pose a question in two parts:

1) Atheists and Agnostics:

IF you found out for SURE that there is a Hell that is even worse than we have heard and a Heaven that is even better than we have heard, would you change anything that you are doing in your life?

2) Christians and other Believers:

IF you found out for SURE that there is NO Hell after life and No Heaven after life - (when we are dead, we are dead), would you change anything that you are doing in your life?

I used to be 1) and now am 2) and have some comments, but I want to hold them to see if there are any other comments on this.

Remember I said IF - I am not arguing the existence or non-existence of either.

My question is, if you did know beyond a shadow of a doubt, either way. What would be the point?

I understand people would like to believe they'd continue living life as they are. Yet, presented with this undeniable truth, I don't buy it.

Let's look at the Atheists side first. If it were "fact", that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and toxins such as alcohol or drugs were grounds for going straight to hell for eternity, would you cease use immediately? Or have that one last beer knowing full well the consequences?

On the Christian side, let’s say you've recently learned that there is absolutely no existence beyond this life whatsoever, fact. Let's also say that our civilization broke down to a point of total chaos. You unwillingly find yourself in a position, were the one and only means to keep you and your family alive, would be to kill and steal from your neighbor. Would you do it? Or let them kill you?

I think the larger and more interesting concept here is the fact that we cannot prove it either way, unequivocally. I think that “is” the point. No matter which side of the fence you sit on, it's up to you and your freewill, to act as you see fit. That's the true test of ones character. Which may, coincidentally, be exactly what this is all about?

[Diogenes]

If there was a hell, and it was proven to exist...I would change nothing....because I would immediately assume that ' faking it ' or ' trying to buy your way out of it ' would be pointless.

If there was no hell, and it was proven to not exist...I would change nothing...because I don't believe it exists now. However knowing it for a fact might actually make me worse...because to some degree we are all constrained by the threat of punishment...how much so depends upon the person.

And this is the thing I stress about those who claim that the Death penalty doesn't deter murder...it probably does...we will never know how many murders it prevents. All laws to some extent prevent crime...some people ' are ' deterred by the threat of punishment.

[Dex]

If there was a hell, and it was proven to exist...I would change nothing....because I would immediately assume that ' faking it ' or ' trying to buy your way out of it ' would be pointless.

Hello Diogenes. I can only assume you were responding to the OP. Can I ask, if we enter some specifics, or scenarios, would you keep your stance? Such as, hypothetically, let's say you like to speed in your car. However, tomorrow, all cars will be GPS tracked. If you are found to be speeding, you will go to jail for eternity. Would you then continue to speed vs "selling out"?

If there was no hell, and it was proven to not exist...I would change nothing...because I don't believe it exists now. However knowing it for a fact might actually make me worse...because to some degree we are all constrained by the threat of punishment...how much so depends upon the person.

Is it me or did you just contradict yourself in the above statement?

And this is the thing I stress about those who claim that the Death penalty doesn't deter murder...it probably does...we will never know how many murders it prevents. All laws to some extent prevent crime...some people ' are ' deterred by the threat of punishment.

I'm struggling to correlate the Death Sentence into the OP's question?

[minorwork]

My question is, if you did know beyond a shadow of a doubt, either way. What would be the point?

I understand people would like to believe they'd continue living life as they are. Yet, presented with this undeniable truth, I don't buy it.

Let's look at the Atheists side first. If it were "fact", that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and toxins such as alcohol or drugs were grounds for going straight to hell for eternity, would you cease use immediately? Or have that one last beer knowing full well the consequences?

On the Christian side, let’s say you've recently learned that there is absolutely no existence beyond this life whatsoever, fact. Let's also say that our civilization broke down to a point of total chaos. You unwillingly find yourself in a position, were the one and only means to keep you and your family alive, would be to kill and steal from your neighbor. Would you do it? Or let them kill you?

I think the larger and more interesting concept here is the fact that we cannot prove it either way, unequivocally. I think that “is” the point. No matter which side of the fence you sit on, it's up to you and your freewill, to act as you see fit. That's the true test of ones character. Which may, coincidentally, be exactly what this is all about?

All you've got to do is test to see what happens. Run an experiment. Take an atheist and a theist to hell and bring them back and see if the reality changes them and makes them want to never go again. Sounds easy to me. If that can't be done is it because you don't know how or is it because you've the wrong idea of heaven and hell? Or are they simply a manipulative tool that would be rendered useless were their reality established, a reality that does NOT necessitate dying to prove?

[Century 25]

As John Lennon wrote:

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religon too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say I'm a dreamer

But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will live as one..

.

Well.. it's easy to see it, and easy enough to grasp the 'reasoning' behind 'religions' (cults) death-grip on society.

...

[Thanatos]

Hello Diogenes. I can only assume you were responding to the OP. Can I ask, if we enter some specifics, or scenarios, would you keep your stance? Such as, hypothetically, let's say you like to speed in your car. However, tomorrow, all cars will be GPS tracked. If you are found to be speeding, you will go to jail for eternity. Would you then continue to speed vs "selling out"?

Then the system isn't fair. It needs to be protested, picketed, and revolted against until it is fair again.

Now if we have some sort of 1984 deal going on where there's really no possibility of revolt because the bad guys are all-seeing and all-powerful... then life sucks. Drive the speed limit.

If the good guys aren't really good, is it possible the bad guys aren't really bad? Or are they in some sort of vast collusion, like Oceania, Eastasia and Eurasia? This should be investigated; an understanding of the power dynamics might reveal some way to escape.

[Zeebadee]

However, assuming our behavior determines the location, .....

If you are a Christian, you need to do a little more study.

Your behavior does not determine your location. Your location is determined by your commitment to Christ. Your behavior is shaped by honoring and living the values he gave you. You seem to have it backwards - actions don't determine your morality, your morality determines what your actions are.

[mbc85]

"Your behavior does not determine your location. Your location is determined by your commitment to Christ."

I am so not commited to christ, tho I think jeebus was a great dude. I do tend to live my life in a rather respectful way towards others. Can I go to heaven?


"Your behavior is shaped by honoring and living the values he gave you."

By honoring, do you mean going to church, praying, etc.?

If jeebus gave values to everyone....I think he forgot a lot of people, like the rapist, murderers, and such.

[Zeebadee]

I am so not commited to christ, tho I think jeebus was a great dude. I do tend to live my life in a rather respectful way towards others. Can I go to heaven?

I don't know. That's up to you to decide. What do you believe?

By honoring, do you mean going to church, praying, etc.?

I mean by following the guidelines He gave you.

If jeebus gave values to everyone....I think he forgot a lot of people, like the rapist, murderers, and such.

You've got free will, just as they do. You decide how to live your life.

[samsara15]

I would like to pose a question in two parts:

1) Atheists and Agnostics:

IF you found out for SURE that there is a Hell that is even worse than we have heard and a Heaven that is even better than we have heard, would you change anything that you are doing in your life?

2) Christians and other Believers:

IF you found out for SURE that there is NO Hell after life and No Heaven after life - (when we are dead, we are dead), would you change anything that you are doing in your life?

I used to be 1) and now am 2) and have some comments, but I want to hold them to see if there are any other comments on this.

Remember I said IF - I am not arguing the existence or non-existence of either.

As a person who is neither of your choices, but has been both, I would continue to live as I have been living, and make no changes in my life. Threats do not determine my life style.