Why is god so egoistic?

[castille]

Why does the Christian god have an ego the size of a Christian priest's sex crimes record?

He demands to be worshipped, threatens to execute anyone who refuses ("Hell" after all is his threat).

Yet he (or she, or it) created men in the first place. So if this god created all humans....doesn't that mean he/she/it would know not all humans are going to worship him/her/it?

Why he is complaining about a lack of worshippers, when he knew this would happen in the first place?

[Brighteyes]

i can honestly say that i've never heard god complain..

i'd say he can only complain if you let him into your head

[castille]

You haven't recieved his death threats in the bible? You know, the parts where he talks about throwing people to hell if they refuse to kowtow to him.

[Ken Carman]

I'm not sure it's limited to "the Christian God," one might ask why Gods in general, are that way. I know when I read the Koran it sounded like someone had done a reverse Jefferson on the bible. Jefferson edited out all the phrases that Jesus actually said, that he considered "diamonds in a dunghill" and published them in a book. Pretty peaceful guy, generally speaking. The Koran is more "old testie" with all the parts where it's claimed Allah will dice you, slice you and French fries you if you don't worship in the right way. Most single deity "inspired," or supposedly "written" (In the SPIRIT of the discussion, I ask, does a deity use holy "ghost writers?"") texts I've read, religions I've studied, have a deity that acts like a cross between the Santa robot from "Futurama" and some spoiled brat, tantrum-filled child. If that really is God, I'd think some serious looney bin time is needed, after a trial decides he's too insane to be executed... or NOT.

[LogicaLunatic]

Castille -

Hey man. Don't take offense. It's fiction anyways.

[Gorgo]

Yeah, it's just a book. No one takes it seriously, do they?

[LDS]

He demands to be worshipped, threatens to execute anyone who refuses

Anyone else find it interisting how the same thing can be viewed differently?

I've always viewed god not as demanding, but inviting us to heed his warnings (not threats). After all is it a threat if you tell someone not to put their hand on the stove or they'll get burned?

[LogicaLunatic]

LDS,

It's not a threat but it is childish and malicious when you have the power to make the hand resistant to the heat or just turn the stove cold instantly when the hand touches it.

"But god doesn't work that way."

Then he's not a god worth worshipping.

LL

[LDS]

It's not a threat but it is childish and malicious when you have the power to make the hand resistant to the heat or just turn the stove cold instantly when the hand touches it.

Or why doesnt god just deny us the choice?

Is there any growth if everything changes on a whim to allow us to pass through life unscathed?

[castille]

What I don't understand is why the supposed "wise" God would actually *want* to be worshipped. Every (human) likes to be worshipped, but only those with sociopathic problems are obssessed with it.

And I thought the Roman Gods fighting each other over women were weird...

[LogicaLunatic]

Originally posted by LDS, It's not a threat but it is childish and malicious when you have the power to make the hand resistant to the heat or just turn the stove cold instantly when the hand touches it. Or why doesnt god just deny us the choice? Is there any growth if everything changes on a whim to allow us to pass through life unscathed?

Yes why doesn't God just deny us the choice by not requiring that we cook our food. It just cooks itself automatically. That would be great. And how about just providing food for us instead of us working to buy food? That'd be nice too.

Now, as a father with LIMITED power my son NEEDS to know/learn lessons about the dangers of stoves, knives, cars, fire, christians, etc. because he will, at some point, be without me to protect him. But if I had the unlimited power that your god has my son (and every living being) would live his/her/its life in paradise and not have to worry about such things.

To answer your last question, I don't think a loving, all powerful father would want us scathed. A father that puts his children through unnecessary pain to learn lessons that they don't actually need to learn is a father I'd disown.

LL

[Apologist]

There is Too Much Evil and Suffering For God to Exist?
Atheists often claim that the presence of evil is an argument against the existence of God. The Christian God is supposed to be both loving and all-powerful. Despite these characteristics, God seems to be unable or unwilling to prevent the vast amount of evil and suffering in the world. The atheist concludes that either God is not loving or not all-powerful or that God does not exist, because if He did exist, He could stop all the suffering. The atheistic arguments contain some subtle assumptions that, as I will show, do not apply to the God of the Bible and His created universe. Even the assumption that evil and suffering are bad for us must be questioned in light of what the Bible says.

What I have found is that atheists like to say that their arguments against God's existence specifically exclude the God of the Bible as a God who could exist. However, in reality, atheists produce generic arguments against a generic God whose characteristics and creation do not match those that are described in the Bible. Atheists may not accept what the Bible says, but they cannot say the God of the Bible cannot logically exist and then ignore what the Bible has to say about the characteristics of God. If the atheist states that the God of the Bible is logically impossible, he cannot pick and choose which arguments from the Bible to accept in order to "prove" his point. Let's formalize the atheist's arguments:

God is all-powerful, loving, and perfect.
A perfect, loving God would create a universe that was perfect (e.g., no evil and suffering).
The universe is not perfect but contains evil and suffering.

Therefore, God does not exist.
The Bible does state that God is "all powerful." In the Old Testament, one of God's titles is "El Shadday," which is translated "God Almighty."1 The Bible also states that God is loving.2 In fact, the Bible indicates that God is love.3 The Bible also indicates that God is perfect.4 So, we can agree that the first statement is a correct interpretation of what the Bible says about the characteristics of God.

The next statement indicates that a perfect, loving God must create a universe that is perfect. This is the statement that is false and invalidates the argument. Nowhere does the Bible state that the universe was created to be perfect. God Himself called it "good"5 and "very good,"6 but never "perfect." In fact, God Himself stated that part of the original creation was "not good."7 The Bible states that the current universe is not perfect,8 but was designed to be temporary9 and will be replaced with a perfect universe10 that will be permanent.11 Science also tells us that the universe was designed to be temporary.12

Why would God create an imperfect, temporary universe only to replace it later with a perfect one? Why wouldn't God have created a perfect universe in the first place? This is a good question, but shows a lack of understanding of the biblical reason of why God created the universe. One can find the reason for the creation of the universe in the first few chapters of the Bible. God created humans in order to have a personal relationship with them, which He had with Adam and Eve before they sinned (Genesis 2). Jesus said that the first and foremost commandment was to "Love the Lord your God..."13 A personal relationship, characterized by the possibility of love, is only possible if created beings are given free will. If God had created the universe with no possibility of evil or sin, then the created beings would have had no free will, and, as such, would essentially be programmed computers. Such beings would be incapable of love, since love involves making a choice - which requires the ability to choose not to love. For example, I can program my computer to say "I love you" when it starts up. Does this mean that the computer really loves me? Of course not! Likewise, God could have programmed humans to say that they loved Him, without the possibility of rejecting Him or performing evil deeds. However, these programmed beings would exhibit about as much true love as my computer - not a very satisfying relationship. Therefore, God created the universe for the express purpose of allowing free will spiritual beings the opportunity to have fellowship with Him (and likewise, reject Him).

God's purposes in creating the universe go beyond merely creating free will beings that love Him in this temporary universe. Jesus explained the ultimate goal of God in the parable of the banquet:

Jesus replied: "A certain man [representing God] was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.' But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.' Another said, 'I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I'm on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.' Still another said, 'I just got married, so I can't come.' The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.' 'Sir,' the servant said, 'what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.' Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full. (Luke 14:16-23)

Therefore, God wants not only a relationship with humans in this universe, but a relationship with billions14 of these creatures in His future, perfect creation. If God's purpose is to have relationships with free will beings in a future creation, then there must be a means by which these beings can make a choice to enter or not enter into this relationship. The means by which we make this choice is exactly the message of the Bible.

Therefore. the Bible says that God allows temporary, bounded evil15 in order to allow free will beings to have the ability to love and to make choices. I am going to propose something which seems to support that atheists' arguments regarding evil. I agree that there is a lot of evil in the world. In fact, I think that there is too much evil in the world to be explained by naturalistic processes. The fact is that there is too much evil in the world to be explained by chaos theory or the laws of physics. Evolution provides no answers to explain the vast amount of evil done by mankind. None of the other creatures on our planet have the capacity for evil that mankind does. No other mammals kill arbitrarily. They only kill to eat and survive - but not mankind. Just watch the nightly news or read your newspaper. Look at all the evil perpetuated in this century alone - 6 million Jews killed by Hitler, 40 million Russians killed by Stalin, 2 million Cambodians killed by their own government in the 1970's - in addition to the hundreds of massacres committed in virtually every nation of the world. The Bible says that the presence of evil is due to the spiritual component of our nature - something that animals do not possess. God endowed His spiritual creatures (humans and angels) with free will to love God or to oppose Him. The most powerful created being (the angel Satan) rebelled and led one third of the angels into opposition against God. Those humans who oppose or ignore God follow Satan into rebellion - either consciously or unconsciously. Some people blame the evil on "society." However, society is composed of individuals who make individual choices. Most the evil is committed by people who oppose the will of society. In contrast, there are many examples of societies in the animal kingdom, especially among the primates. None of these societies have the capacity for evil that we do. We are different from all other animals on our planet - a fact that has no scientific or evolutionary explanation.16

The atheist also makes the assumption that all pain, suffering, and death is bad or evil. In fact, physical pain is absolutely vital to our survival. If we felt no pain, we would do things to ourselves that could be very destructive. For example, if we didn't feel pain when we touched a hot object, we would not react until we saw our flesh smoking. This is obviously not a good thing to do. Pain tells us we need to react to a situation before serious damage occurs.

As discussed previously, much of the suffering experienced in the world is a direct result of free will beings making evil choices that impact others. God is not responsible for the free will choices (e.g., murder, rape, etc.) of other spiritual beings. However, some of the suffering experienced in this world are the result of natural disasters, such as earthquakes, volcanoes, storms, etc. Even so, plate tectonics, volcanoes, and storms are absolutely necessary in order for life to exist on this planet. All of these activities were significantly higher earlier in the Earth's history. God waited until the levels of these potentially destructive forces were reduced prior to the introduction of humans onto the planet.

Many things that people consider to be bad are, in fact, useful in our spiritual growth. The Bible says that trials in our lives produce perseverance, which helps make us mature and complete.17 These trials also increase our faith - a "refining by fire."18 The Bible tells us that "all things to work together for good to those who love God."19 Let me give you a couple concrete examples in my own life that illustrate these points.

I got very sick in 1985, at which time the tests revealed I had Crohn's disease, a serious, incurable inflammatory disease of the intestines. I found myself unable to do things using my own abilities and strength. I was bedridden in severe pain for two months, with the medicine doing nothing to improve my condition. I considered that I would probably spend the rest of my life in pain, in and out of hospitals. Not being able to do anything else in my own strength, I cried out to God and promised to try to follow Him and do what He wanted me to do (although I had no idea what that was at the time). Within three months all symptoms of Crohn's disease had disappeared. The trial was awful at the time, but God had to break my will, so that, when I heard the gospel of Jesus Christ three years later, I accepted it and turned my life over to Jesus, which has been the greatest joy of my life. In addition, I am much more thankful for my good health since that time of trial, and have been more sympathetic and helpful to others who are undergoing similar trials.

In 1996 my wife Carole and I learned that she had an inoperable brain tumor, and was expected to live four to seven years. We had been married only seven years and had three sons, aged 5, 3 and 1 years old at the time. The time since then has been difficult, but it has produced some remarkable changes in Carole. Her interest in jewelry, clothes, and other unimportant things has been replaced by a heightened commitment to family, and raising our boys. She also is more committed to helping others and regularly offers help as she is able. In addition, during this time God has been faithful to answer our prayers and comfort us through the many people who have loved us. What has been abundantly clear is that those people who have gone through the most severe trials are the ones who have ministered most to us. The trials these people have experienced have made them sensitive to the needs of others in similar situations, in ways that only they can understand. I know through this trial God will make me a better ambassador of Jesus Christ, and bring me opportunities for ministry which I would have ignored, had I not gone through this experience. If you talk to other Christians, you will find that it is through trials that they grow in their character and their faith. During the "easy" times, we become complacent. For the non-Christian, he sees the trials as mere annoyance or pointless suffering, often resulting in bitterness.

In conclusion:
God did not design this universe to be perfect, but as a temporary creation where free will beings make choices about where they want to spend eternity (in the new creation, which will be perfect).
The new creation will be perfect, but will not have absolute free will for its inhabitants. We must agree in this life to give up some of our free will in the next life. Those who are unwilling to give up their own free will choices will not be forced to do so in the next life. However, they will have to be separated from the new creation, since God is unwilling to compromise His character.
All people will suffer at least somewhat because of bad choices that others make. In addition, because of the temporary nature of the universe, some bad things will happen to us due to "bad luck" or chance. However, these things will teach us to be more sensitive to the needs of others, and will prepare us to show God's love to others when they suffer through similar things. God want us to learn from this life, not just have a party.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References

Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. (Genesis 17:1)
But I trust in Your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in Your salvation. (Psalms 13:5)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
And we have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. (1 John 4:16)
"The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He. (Deuteronomy 32:4)
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)
And God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:10)
See also Genesis 1:4, 12, 18, 21, 25.
And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (Genesis 1:31)
The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." (Genesis 2:18)
When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. (Hebrews 9:11)
that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. (Romans 8:21-22)
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. (Revelation 21:1)
"Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. (Isaiah 65:17)
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." (Revelation 21:4)
"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. (Isaiah 66:22)
The 2nd law of thermodynamics clearly shows that the universe was designed to be temporary. According to the most recent evidence, there is not enough matter in the universe to cause to contract. Therefore, the universe will continue to expand indefinitely and all the stars will eventually burn out and life would not be possible for the entire rest of the history of the universe. Even if there were enough matter to cause the eventual collapse of the universe, such a collapse would result in the "Big Crunch" - the state in which all the mass would be concentrated in one giant blob for the entire rest of the history of the universe (again life would be impossible).
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' (Matthew 22:37) See also Deuteronomy 6:5.
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. (Revelation 7:9)
God, in His wisdom and sovereignty created us with significantly less power and ability than He has, probably because He knew the evil we would have been capable of, had we been created with His abilities and power. Therefore we were created with complete free-will within our limited framework of 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time. God, in contrast, exists is at least 10 dimensions of space and at least 2 dimensions of time.
See Humans Really Are Different!
Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. (James 1:2-4)
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. (1 Peter 1:6-7)
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28)

[Apologist]

Alot of the questions you people have can be found at www.godandscience.org I mainly like it because it refrences everything it says. This is the reason for many of the misplaced numbers in the above article. So visit the site.

God Bless

[rez]

Why was religion created so far back in time? How come people don't develop new religions in the year 2004?

Yeah youre right, chances are something bad will happen to you in life. Theres also a chance that you have a disease and you pray to God and you become "healed."

Theres alot of evil in the world, religion helped balance evil thousands of years ago but nowadays its starting to collapse.

In my opinion Sociology should be the new Religion class because it teaches you how humans react to each other in a token way. The more the population grows the more evil we get.

[LDS]

Yes why doesn't God just deny us the choice by not requiring that we cook our food. It just cooks itself automatically. That would be great. And how about just providing food for us instead of us working to buy food? That'd be nice too.

If I came to you and gave you the same meal everyday for the rest of your life, never giving you the ability to decide for yourself what you would eat, would you love me or hate me?

To answer your last question, I don't think a loving, all powerful father would want us scathed. A father that puts his children through unnecessary pain to learn lessons that they don't actually need to learn is a father I'd disown.

Can you know Joy without having an awareness of misery? Happiness without sadness? What kind of father would not want his son to experience happiness or joy?

What I don't understand is why the supposed "wise" God would actually *want* to be worshipped

Hypothetical:
Imagine you and I are in Vietnam, our helicopter has just crashed deep in the dark jungle. The enemy has very craftily laid well hidden snares in order to destroy us. A medic in our outfit calmly explains, I know the way, follow me. Do we follow him? If we do is it egotistical for him to expect us to follow his every command without hesitation? Shouldnt we give this man the respect, the "worship" necessary to see us through the jungle?

[Suburbanite]

The reason God seems so cruel to those who believe is because he gives humans freewill. Free will, in theory at least, gives people a choice to do what is in God's favor or not to. God grants that gift (unless you're a Calvinist) and it creates the human condition. His "love" was this freedom, and he seems to hope that you still take his moral guidelines to heart, otherwise the devil will convert that freewill into immorality and you'll have to suffer in hell.

[Ken Carman]

"Hypothetical:
Imagine you and I are in Vietnam, our helicopter has just crashed deep in the dark jungle. The enemy has very craftily laid well hidden snares in order to destroy us. A medic in our outfit calmly explains, I know the way, follow me. Do we follow him? If we do is it egotistical for him to expect us to follow his every command without hesitation? Shouldn't we give this man the respect, the "worship" necessary to see us through the jungle?"

An intelligent deity would recognize the paradox here. He, or she, or it, certainly would not allow those who question to rot in Hell or refuse them entry into some Valhalla simply because they doubt and might not follow. Why? Because that path is not as clear as the believer might think. Jimmy Jones, the folks at Waco, hell even the comet followers all used similar methods to keep believers in line and non-believers at a minimum. A smart leader knows how to keep even the non-believers going. It's a hard job, but certainly not beyond the powers of a benevolent God. I have met humans who, in a limited way, achieve this. Every person I've ever met who demands to be worshipped, who demands to be thought of as superior, who demands we follow him "or else," is a bully who deserves to be toppled faster than the Nazi symbol was at the end of WWII, or a Saddam statue.

I tend to find that such Gods are not Gods at all, or at least not the nature of a true God. They are but inventions of those who wish to have power over others for their own selfish and sick needs. So it's not that strange that those who insist we worship such a "God" often have the same characteristics as the God(s) they claim they believe in.

[Comrade]

If not for the threat of Hell, why would anyone pay their tithe to the Church?
This is a pretty simple subject.

[LogicaLunatic]

Originally posted by LDS, If I came to you and gave you the same meal everyday for the rest of your life, never giving you the ability to decide for yourself what you would eat, would you love me or hate me?

What makes you think God would provide the same meal every day? The variety I could come up and would make me happy wouldn't even equal a single percentage point of all of the things God could feed me if he existed.

But to answer, I wouldn't hate you unless it had mushrooms in it.

Can you know Joy without having an awareness of misery? Happiness without sadness? What kind of father would not want his son to experience happiness or joy?

Yes I can know joy and happiness without knowing misery and sadness. I may not have anything to compare the feelings to but I'd still be feeling them.

Hypothetical: Imagine you and I are in Vietnam, our helicopter has just crashed deep in the dark jungle. The enemy has very craftily laid well hidden snares in order to destroy us. A medic in our outfit calmly explains, I know the way, follow me. Do we follow him? If we do is it egotistical for him to expect us to follow his every command without hesitation? Shouldnt we give this man the respect, the "worship" necessary to see us through the jungle?

If and only if he gets us through. So far as I can tell, your god hasn't given me or my family anything even 1/1000th as substantial as a path through a jungle.

[LDS]

An intelligent deity would recognize the paradox here. He, or she, or it, certainly would not allow those who question to rot in Hell

How can he save them from the snares if they dont want to be saved?

If not for the threat of Hell, why would anyone pay their tithe to the Church?

"Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered."

What is 10% of our income compared to that? What is all of our worldly possessions compared to that?

What makes you think God would provide the same meal every day?

Why would he vary? Remember before Adam and Eve partake of the fruit they knew neither happiness nor sorrow, Bitter nor sweet, Joy nor misery. Why would he vary?

Yes I can know joy and happiness without knowing misery and sadness.

How, if you have nothing to compare them to, can you know them?

your god hasn't given me or my family anything even 1/1000th as substantial as a path through a jungle.

Have you ever asked? Have you ever sought? Which causes more growth and understanding, having the path given you, or finding the path?