Why is god so egoistic?

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by LDS, How can he save them from the snares if they dont want to be saved?

I have been inspired by great teachers and leaders who knew how to lead, even lead those in the group who had trouble following. I have also been under the thumb of those who attempt to lead with threats, violence and demands that we don't question; essentially worship them and their abilities. Those type of leaders have always been very bad at what they do. So the Creator is inferior in his/her/it's abilities and powers to some of the Creator's creations?

[LDS]

I have been inspired by great teachers and leaders who knew how to lead, even lead those in the group who had trouble following.

This goes beyond having trouble following, this is people not choosing to follow. How can you lead people who are so intent on making it through the snares on their own?

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by LDS, This goes beyond having trouble following, this is people not choosing to follow. How can you lead people who are so intent on making it through the snares on their own?

I have met people who have a talent for even leading those you mention. It's a rare talent, but it does exist. I believe the Creator, God, whomever, must be the source of that talent, unless God IS quite cruel, vindictive and evil; then I have no wish to follow or even get near such a beast.

Even so, a true loving God would welcome such a soul back into the embrace of the divine once it decides to return. Since we are talking eternity here, I find the miniscule limitation of a single life time cruel and unusual punishment for a loving God to allow. I'm not talking reincarnation here, although I am open for such revisions in my own beliefs given new insight and vision. I just believe that we probably make own own Hell until we open to "the light." Using the analogy you used, if a person comes back to the true leader after finding out his path is wrong, would a good leader say "screw you?"

[Apologist]

Instead of trying to picture Hell in such ways torture, burning, and suffering try to picture it as your choice. J.P. Moreland has an opnion on the characteristics of Hell and I agree with his views. He says "God is the most generous, lving, wonderful, attractive being in the cosmos. He has made us with free will and he has made us for a purpose: to relate lovingly to him and not to others. We are not accidents, we're not random mistakes or modified monkeys. And if we fail over and over again to live for the purpose for which we are made- a purpose, by the war, which would allow us to flourish more than living any other way- than God wil have absolutely no choice but to give us what we've asked for all along in our lives, which is seperation from him. And that is what hell is." One objection that people seem to bring up is that it isn't fair for someone like Hitler to have the same punishment as a person who lived morally but didn't accept Christ. The truth is that everyone doesn't experience the same punishment in hell. Matthew 11 20-24. If you want answers to some of these objections you people have read Lee Strobels books. "A Case for Christ" "A Case for Faith" and "A Case for the Creator". I highly recommend reading these books.

[LDS]

who have a talent for even leading those you mention

While retaining that individuals agency? How can you lead someone on the true and right path, without taking that persons agency, if he doesnt want to follow?
What kind of benevolent god would deny us the choice?


Apologist, I agree. Hell is not some guy with a red tail poking you in the eye for the rest of eternity. Because of the atonement, all of us on this earth are resurrected and returned to the presence of our heavenly father. Staying in the presence of a just and perfect being would be a terrrible hell if we had abused his laws, or wilfully rebelled.
http://scriptures.lds.org/morm/9/3-4

[LogicaLunatic]

Originally posted by LDS, Why would he vary? Remember before Adam and Eve partake of the fruit they knew neither happiness nor sorrow, Bitter nor sweet, Joy nor misery. Why would he vary?

Could he? Yes
Would that be better for his kids in this hypothetical paradise we're talking about? Yes

I'm arguing from the standpoint of a loving father. Parents do what they can. A parent that can create a universe in under a week doesn't have many limitations.

Why would a father with that power supply his children with a wide variety of things to eat? Love and ability.

How, if you have nothing to compare them to, can you know them?

Different things cause different people to experience Joy. It is a feeling. That feeling can be stirred in anybody even if the feeling of despair has not.

Have you ever asked? Have you ever sought? Which causes more growth and understanding, having the path given you, or finding the path?

A god worth worshipping would not need to be asked.

LL

[LDS]

I'm arguing from the standpoint of a loving father.

So am I. I'm trying to show you why god allowed Adam and Eve to fall. Why it was necessary that they fall from a paradisical state. Why it was necessary that there come a man who would redeem us from that fall.

So I ask you this, if a child, is allowed to grow and develope fully, allowed to experience the same thing his parents experienced, where does that leave him in relationship to his parents?

[castille]

But what about those millions of people who've never heard about God?

The ancient races of Assyrians, Hittites, the islander tribes....hell, God never went to Africa until the European missionaries (and that was because they wanted to enslave them).

Does this mean they all go to Hell, despite the fact that they've never even come across this concept of a god?

[LogicaLunatic]

Originally posted by LDS, So am I. I'm trying to show you why god allowed Adam and Eve to fall. Why it was necessary that they fall from a paradisical state. Why it was necessary that there come a man who would redeem us from that fall. So I ask you this, if a child, is allowed to grow and develope fully, allowed to experience the same thing his parents experienced, where does that leave him in relationship to his parents?

No, you're trying to make all of the completely horrendous things that happen to people somehow fit into your cozy Loving God centered worldview.

You say, shitty things happen because God loves us.

I say, shitty things happen simply because they do. That's how this non-intelligently designed universe works.

God loves us so he teaches us lessons that break bones, disfigure us, kill us, kill our loved ones? You can quote all the Bible verses you want, this sounds like an extremely abusive father to me. A father worth disowning. I know if I broke my kid's arm so that he would "know the joy" of not having his arm broken I'd be thrown in jail. If I forced pain/dispair on ANYBODY just so they could appreciate the opposite I'd at least be arrested.

[LogicaLunatic]

Originally posted by LDS, So I ask you this, if a child, is allowed to grow and develope fully, allowed to experience the same thing his parents experienced, where does that leave him in relationship to his parents?

The child would grow up to be an EQUAL to his/her parent and love/respect/appreciate their parent for doing the BEST THEY COULD. You're trying to say that Christians experience the same thing your god has? Are you saying that your god only does the BEST HE CAN? That goes against how your god is described in the bible.

(Yes I've read it)

[LDS]

But what about those millions of people who've never heard about God?

If they had been given the opportunity to hear and wouldve accepted (because the will hear it) will be accepted.

God loves us so he teaches us lessons that break bones, disfigure us, kill us, kill our loved ones? You can quote all the Bible verses you want, this sounds like an extremely abusive father to me. A father worth disowning. I know if I broke my kid's arm so that he would "know the joy" of not having his arm broken I'd be thrown in jail. If I forced pain/dispair on ANYBODY just so they could appreciate the opposite I'd at least be arrested.

Alas, Pearls before swine.

Dont you see it is not through the silver platter that girls/boys become wo/men. It is through the fire of trials and adversity that makes girls/boys into wo/men.

Dont you understand why a god would want us to better ourselves?

[Liberty Landing]

I'm an agnostic so I have no opinion one way or the other.

All I will say is that God is God and humans are human, and castille, you're very human. If God did exist you wouldn't be able to understand his ways or his reasons.

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by LDS, Alas, Pearls before swine. Dont you see it is not through the silver platter that girls/boys become wo/men. It is through the fire of trials and adversity that makes girls/boys into wo/men. Dont you understand why a god would want us to better ourselves?

So God either tortures us, or allows us to be tortured, to make us better? Those prisoners in Iraq and X-Ray must be bloody Saints by now. I think it's more likely that there is so much more to eternity that this brief moment is time, a life time, will forge the soul who moves on to... wherever/whatever. Creation, for me, is like a timepiece created by the divine. It works in it's own unique way, rather than God allowing or specifically designing torture that you refer to as "adversity." (Not all adversity is torture, but some is.)

But then again, it could all be hooey and when life ends, life ends, and God is the human fantasy we'd rather believe in rather than nothing. I'm not saying I believe that, I don't. But, hey I could be wrong, anyone can be despite all the egos we hear from pounding on their theistic, agnostic and atheistic drums out there.

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by LDS, While retaining that individuals agency? How can you lead someone on the true and right path, without taking that persons agency, if he doesnt want to follow? What kind of benevolent god would deny us the choice? Apologist, I agree. Hell is not some guy with a red tail poking you in the eye for the rest of eternity. Because of the atonement, all of us on this earth are resurrected and returned to the presence of our heavenly father. Staying in the presence of a just and perfect being would be a terrrible hell if we had abused his laws, or wilfully rebelled. http://scriptures.lds.org/morm/9/3-4

Once again I have met people who ARE so inspiring that they can motivate even the most stubborn non-believer, and I believe the source of that talent is the divine. A Creator that gives such talents to his creations but sits back and doesn't use them him/herself is lazy at best.

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by Apologist, Instead of trying to picture Hell in such ways torture, burning, and suffering try to picture it as your choice.  J.P. Moreland has an opnion on the characteristics of Hell and I agree with his views.  He says "God is the most generous, lving, wonderful, attractive being in the cosmos.  He has made us with free will and he has made us for a purpose: to relate lovingly to him and not to others.  We are not accidents, we're not random mistakes or modified monkeys. And if we fail over and over again to live for the purpose for which we are made- a purpose, by the war, which would allow us to flourish more than living any other way- than God will have absolutely no choice but to give us what we've asked for all along in our lives, which is seperation from him.  And that is what hell is." One objection that people seem to bring up is that it isn't fair for someone like Hitler to have the same punishment as a person who lived morally but didn't accept Christ. The truth is that everyone doesn't experience the same punishment in hell.  Matthew 11 20-24. If you want answers to some of these objections you people have read Lee Strobels books.  "A Case for Christ" "A Case for Faith" and "A Case for the Creator".  I highly recommend reading these books.

I have found the first argument that I put in bold and underlined silly. If God used Evolution, or poof, or seemingly random means... it really doesn't matter. We're arguing mechanics here. Whether God used the laws of physics, biology or even "poof," once again, so what? However it was done or happened, God was involved or did it. I could be wrong, as we all can, but that is what I believe.

The second one seems rather vague. Are we talking about, as one Twilight episode suggested, a good hunting dog and a patch of good hunting land vs sulpher and some smarmy gatekeeper? Are we talking about worshipping one being for the rest of eternity, as some believe? There are many, including myself, who would consider that to be Hell... so seperation might be a good thing?

Third part put in bold/underlined... (Now I'm putting on my Monty Hall personna.)

"And behind door number one, for all you casual sinners/non-believers... Rats! Snakes! Roaches! Feel lucky, because... behind door number two for the more hardcore.. pits of fire, pools of acid and constant ridicule! Feel lucky because... behind door number THREE... listening to NPR fund raising for the rest of eternity!"

Sinner screams and accepts Jesus.

I've always wanted to pull that one on someone. Thanks for the opportunity.

[LogicaLunatic]

Originally posted by LDS, Alas, Pearls before swine. Dont you see it is not through the silver platter that girls/boys become wo/men. It is through the fire of trials and adversity that makes girls/boys into wo/men. Dont you understand why a god would want us to better ourselves?

Yes in the world which your god supposedly created for us, humans do need to better themselves and become adults. Why? Because humans eventually have to look after themselves (just incase you missed it this implies that your god does not look out for them). Humans wouldn't have to look out for themselves if a worthy god existed.

If I COULD protect my son from every single harm that could ever befall him I would. If I COULD provide enough so he would never have to work but had everything he ever wanted I would. If I COULD create a paradise for my son to live in where he never had to learn life lessons I would. It is the fact that I CAN'T do these things for him that is key. I can't. But, your god can. And if he was a god worth worshipping he WOULD. Do you get it yet? If your god does exist then there is no excuse for his behavior and he can kiss my ass anyway :)

LL

[LDS]

grow up to be an EQUAL to his/her parent

Think about that for a bit.

Are you saying that your god only does the BEST HE CAN?

Thats not what im saying, Im saying sometimes he allows things to happen for a reason. If the trials of this life are handled with faith, prayer, meekness, humility, and hardwork, we will develope godly attributes, we will finally understand just who our father is, we will be on a level of understanding we simply couldnt have imagined in the pre-existance.

So God either tortures us, or allows us to be tortured, to make us better?

"...if even the very jaws of hell shall gape open wide the mouth after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good" http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/122/7#7

This was given to Joseph Smith while he was in liberty jail serving time for crimes he did not commit

[katar]

http://www.snapshotsofgod.com/

is a terrific website by a former atheist.

I am always amused when internet posters think they have solved the eternal metaphysical questions of the universe. One should not be so dismissive of Christianity, whether it is truth or not. We should all be humble in our ignorance.

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by katar, http://www.snapshotsofgod.com/ I am always amused when internet posters think they have solved the eternal metaphysical questions of the universe. One should not be so dismissive of Christianity, whether it is truth or not. We should all be humble in our ignorance.

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean we don't have the right to having fun assessing, postulating and jousting with each other.

[Ken Carman]

Originally posted by LDS, "...if even the very jaws of hell shall gape open wide the mouth after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good" http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/122/7#7 This was given to Joseph Smith while he was in liberty jail serving time for crimes he did not commit

That's if we actually believe as a Mormon would or should. Honeslty, no disrespect intended, but I find fighting off born agains, Fundies, Pentecostals and all the different brands of theology, pointless. Someone quotes the bible to me. If the Koran doesn't inspre me, If I don't accept that the bible is "God's Word," or even "divinely inspired," we can argue forever and nothing will happen. Same is true with Joseph Smith or... whomever. Seems a more productive method is to explore each other's "logic" and "reasoning" skills and if we can't get there from here, agree to disagree in a civil manner. Just makes sense to me.