What is Faith?

[orgaelin]

I'd say faith is a bad word for religious people to use. I mean, when you are certain of something, you say "I know" or "knowledge". When you're not so certain, you say "believe" or "think", or "I've not had proof, but that's okay because I have faith"

By definition, 'faith' means that you are uncertain. It is believing despite a lack of proof or in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Just thought I'd slip that little point in there!

Why do none of you ever say "I know that God exists"? Truth: because you don't. You hope with all your might, and call that hope 'faith'.

Let me ask another question if I may: why does God demand faith instead of just showing us? I know the bible says we should just have faith, and not be so bold as to question the lord... but why is that so? Surely it's not fair?

The problem is that the bible puts it in such a way that it's adherents are afraid to ask questions like this, so I'm asking it for you, and of you, that you might have to ask yourselves first, in order to answer me second.

WHY doesn't god show you he is real, even in a personal way in your own mind. Why does he DEMAND that you be faithful without proof?

Look at everyone on this forum... they make a point and then they try to explain why they are right. That's the way of things. If you want people to see things your way, you have to make them see why they should. You have to explain to them so that they can see and understand.

If I demanded faith, and got angry when people strayed from faith and started asking questions, then, speaking purely from the viewpoint of motivation... my most likely motivation for doing that would be that I needed your faith because of a lack in myself of the ability to prove things to you.

Now I'm not saying the old grey-beard is up there troubled at his inability to prove his existence to us, and is thus demanding faith. Of course not. The bible is the work of men, and it is they who could not prove the existence of God, and it is they who then used the tool of 'faith' to manipulate people into following the pattern of laws those men set out.

Real faith doesn't require uncertainty. It's nothing to do with beliefs. It's something many Christians may have felt... you know that moment of clarity you've had maybe once or twice? A moment when you suddenly felt that you were so close to god, that you knew him like an old friend, and that you were already one with him?

THAT really was him. The guy in the bible is a fictional character used to manipulate the feebleminded masses into being law abiding citizens.

Close your eyes, and DARE to ask god if he would really damn you to hell for masturbating or being gay or working on the sabath or hating your neighbour. If you're listening at all, to god and not the bible or your preacher or your indoctrination, you'll hear "no way dude", or words to that effect!

The god who was gracious enough to create you, to form you as a piece of himself, from himself, and still in himself, would not turn upon you no matter what you did. The love of God is eternal, and it is for Saddam Hussein as much as it is for Mother Teresa.

That's not to say you are free to sin though. As a piece of God, morality is ingrained within your very being. And the more wrong you do, the more you will unavoidedly bring suffering upon yourself, by yourself, because karma is controlled by guilt, and brought against you willingly by your own soul, that you may forgive yourself, and come back to god when you are ready.

No-one is ever damned, nor will they ever be. You are simply closer to or further from God.

Forget the bible and other tools of mankind to manipulate its own, and remember what you in your heart already know, and always knew.

And if you can't do that then at least try this: next time you are in church and your preacher tells you something about god, ask yourself, 'is god *really* like that?' Ask, just ask, and you will find the answer.

THEN you will become faithful.

Faithfully yours,

Orgaelin.

[LDS]

Alma's chapter on faith.


Faith is a hope for things which are true.
http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/32/21

WHY doesn't god show you he is real, even in a personal way in your own mind

Pardon?

The god who was gracious enough to create you, to form you as a piece of himself, from himself, and still in himself, would not turn upon you no matter what you did.

Yes, he will not turn his back on us. Nor will he prevent us from turning our backs on him.

No-one is ever damned, nor will they ever be. You are simply closer to or further from God.

Isnt that what damned is, being further from god? If god is the light than the further away you are from god the more darkness there is.


Orgaelin, you'll believe what you will, I can't change that no more than you can change what I believe.

[orgaelin]

LDS, I agree with you. You can't change my mind any more than I can change yours.

So do we ignore each other or carry on debating?!

I can honestly say that I consider everything you say without writing it off right away. I am open to you telling me something I might agree with...

I don't know that the same is true for you of me... do you even consider anything I say?

One problem I do have is that you fail to explain things for yourself. You just point me to scripture. You're like a search engine! When I tell my opinion, I explain it, I specify my reasoning and why it IS my reasoning and not a recitation of something my priest said. You don't seem to reason, you just quote.

I'm interested to hear how you came to your faith. Were you born to it, found it in your teens, had a missionary knock on your door and convert you to it, or what?

That, more than anything, would help me understand your reasoning.

Your belief in your religion is strong to the point that frightens men like me. It is so strong that your reactions come almost on automatic, like a mother protecting her young and forgetting all consequences and danger in the rage of the moment.

I mean no offence by this, but must say: it is your unwavering strength of belief that leads to fanatical and extremist behaviours such as war and persecution. Love god all you want, but do it calmly and openly. You should always know above all that you could be wrong... no belief should come higher than that.

~ Org.

[orgaelin]

Just followed one of your scripture links...

quote:
"NOW I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good"

So true.

[orgaelin]

Originally posted by moron And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And did he for you? Manifest, according to the Mirrian Webster dictionary and I'm sure most is defined as "readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sight". Did you SEE god, and I mean SEE, because that IS what the scripture says.

[5010]

Faith is powerful. It allows a manager to delegate work to employees and achieve more than he can do himself. It allows people to accept science without having to verify all experiments personally. It allows jurys to make decisions from the testimony of eye witnesses. It allows us to learn from other's experiences instead of always by mistake.

Is faith always reliable? No, there can be betrayal. Also that which we trust could be invalid or become invalid via context or time.

So in faith there is a benefit as well as a risk.

A benefit of religeous faith is it provides the community with shared goals and values. There is strength in numbers, especially when those numbers are ordered according to basic principles.

[LDS]

One problem I do have is that you fail to explain things for yourself. You just point me to scripture.

Theres a couple of reasons for that.

One, I dont want to spread any more false doctrine than is already out there (There is enough out there)
Two, The scriptures say things far better and plainer than I could ever say them.
Third, above I hope that someone, anyone will just take that chance and read the whole book of mormon as moroni instructs "with true intent." It is true what Joseph Smith says of it, above any other book it is the one best apt to lead men to come to know and return to their father in heaven.
Fourth, I dont have the power to convert anybody on these forums, the Book of Mormon, if read with true intent it brings about a change which is undeniable.

I'm interested to hear how you came to your faith. Were you born to it, found it in your teens, had a missionary knock on your door and convert you to it, or what?

It was more of an experiment really, where I live many people are mormon. They all seemed certain of their religion, unlike others, they always seemed to a have a faith I didnt understand until taking those steps to understand.

Your belief in your religion is strong to the point that frightens men like me.

Fear not, REJOICE!
In the scriptures as Christ is talking to his disciples he asks them something along the lines of "what do you say of me?" Simon, or Paul, answered "Thou art the Christ" "Blessed art thou for it is not flesh which has revealed it to thee, but the spirit."

That same spirit has been restored to the earth today, ANYONE, no matter their cirumstances can come to know the truth. If I can, anybody can.

it is your unwavering strength of belief that leads to fanatical and extremist behaviours such as war and persecution.

That is not what faith in god does, that's what faith in false ideologies do.


By being committed to the faith, we dont seek war(unless we must defend our right to believe in our religion), nor do we seek to force our beliefs on others. Yes I seek that all should come to know what I know, but I'm not (nor can I) force anyone to.

And did he for you? Manifest, according to the Mirrian Webster dictionary and I'm sure most is defined as "readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sight". Did you SEE god, and I mean SEE, because that IS what the scripture says.

No, I did not see. But it was readily perceived by the senses, it was unmistakable. I pray that you will read the book, read it earnestly seeking truth without positive nor negative preconceptions, it will change your life. I promise you it will.

[orgaelin]

LDS,

That is not what faith in god does, that's what faith in false ideologies do.

Ha! You see what I mean - you have the view that you must be right, and therefore everyone else must be wrong. That' what causes problems. But in fairness you did say right after that quote that you don't try to force your ideas on people.

I should tell you that I did open my heart to the possibility of truth within your faith. I let the Mormons in... actually my wife wouldn't let them in, so I had to talk to them in the back garden! But hey! I spoke to them ok?!

They gave me a copy of the book, and listened to what they had to say, asked them questions, and they were very nice. They always are... in fact they reminded me a lot of scientologists.

Have you ever had a sales talk from a scientologist? They come on strong, in a way that leaves you feeling powerful and happy and eager to join them... they're trained to do that, just like Mormons are trained to be the way they are when they preach in the streets. It's about getting converts. The more converts you get, the more money come in to the mother-ship.

Do many people know you have to give a percentage of your income to the church? Tell them how much it is LDS.

But back to the book. I read a lot of it, but not the whole lot. There are some interesting and credible ideas in it. But it's a bit like the Urantia Book, or various other big famous texts that claim to have been channeled from the gods. Lots and lots of 'stuff', backed up with a few credible ideas that could be made up by anyone with a basic knowledge of history.

Sorry I'm so negative. I know what you feel in your heart, and that you only want me and others to feel it to. But I can't :(

~ Org.

[m5lange1]

"Faith is believeing in something when common sense tells you not to".

Miracle on 34th St.

[orgaelin]

Sorry 5010 - I missed your message in there somewhere!

It allows us to learn from other's experiences instead of always by mistake.

I don't agree. But then you knew I'd say that, right?!

My family and I have had this discussion many times, mostly because I have strayed so far from the path set before me by them. It is easy to tire of hearing someone say "I don't want you to make the same mistakes I did"!

I tell them, "Whatever mistakes you have ever made have contributed to the person you are today, and neither of us would change that. You have learned your lessons by your mistakes, and if I make the same mistakes then I will in turn learn the same lessons. Every life has to be lived for itself."

Not really relevent, but hopefully worth reading any way!

~ Org.

[5010]

Originally posted by orgaelin, I tell them, "Whatever mistakes you have ever made have contributed to the person you are today, and neither of us would change that. You have learned your lessons by your mistakes, and if I make the same mistakes then I will in turn learn the same lessons. Every life has to be lived for itself."

Yeah, I suppose if you are a masochist you'll learn about mistakes in order to try them out yourself, hehe. Not me. I changed my lifestyle after I saw my dad recovering from double bypass heart surgery.

[orgaelin]

Well, my issue with my parents was about my choice of wife. If I follow my dad's example I'd be incestuous!

[LDS]

Do many people know you have to give a percentage of your income to the church? Tell them how much it is LDS.

It's 10% of your income. If thats gonna give you heart burn, I dont know what to tell you because thats the lesser law. It was instituted because we simply are not ready to handle the higher law.

Every life has to be lived for itself

Yep. Bottom line is you make your own decisions, good or bad, and there isnt a lot anyone can do about it.

[LogicaLunatic]

I don't agree with very many of you on this one. That is likely because my definition of faith is very specific.

5010 thinks faith includes everything from observation to blind belief. He has a very broad definition of faith.

My definition is simply this: Belief without verifiable evidence or belief in spite of verifiable evidence.

Does faith allow a manager to delegate work to employees? No. A project manager won't delegate work to an employee that can't demonstrate that he/she can actually do the work. This is delegation based upon conclusions derived from observation, not based upon hopes, desires, etc. That is not faith. It is more akin to science.

IF MANAGERS USED FAITH INSTEAD OF OBSERVATION: There would be no need for interviews, resumes, training, employee reviews, etc. Bad Business.

Now on to science. Science is the antithesis if faith. It is based upon evidence that has been independantly verified by several different people. In addition, science has a track record. A very good track record that no other method of knowing/understanding can boast. People's trust of science is based upon conclusions derived from observation. Not belief.

IF SCIENCE WAS BASED UPON FAITH: No need for experimentation. Hypotheses would become theories automatically. People could just come to the conclusions they want and then search for evidence to support it and disregard evidence to the contrary or simply make up evidence and it would be considered good science. Take Kent Hovind for example. His 'science' is completely based on faith. No wonder the entire scientific community thinks he is a quack.

Do people wait for busses at bus stops because of faith? No.
Do people throw balls up in the air and then expect them to come down again because of faith? No.

LL

[orgaelin]

It's 10% of your income. If thats gonna give you heart burn, I dont know what to tell you because thats the lesser law. It was instituted because we simply are not ready to handle the higher law.

You gonna explain that one for me?

Org.

[orgaelin]

Originally posted by LogicaLunatic, My definition is simply this: Belief without verifiable evidence or belief in spite of verifiable evidence.

I can see you and I not getting along. Or maybe I'm just in a bad mood?!

Obviously you have a dislike for the illogical, emotional human types, my Vulcan friend!

Here's the problem: whatever you think is bad about people who are pro-religion and anti-science, the same is bad about you but in reverse. Can you not see that you simply represent the opposite view to theirs, and that you are just as extreme and stuck to your own ideas as they are?

Science, logic, tests and experiments are not the only answer(s), and neither are faith, love, and/or tree hugging. Untill you are open to everything, you are closed to half of everything.

~ Org.

[LogicaLunatic]

Originally posted by orgaelin,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (orgaelin,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-LogicaLunatic, My definition is simply this: Belief without verifiable evidence or belief in spite of verifiable evidence.

I can see you and I not getting along. Or maybe I'm just in a bad mood?!

Obviously you have a dislike for the illogical, emotional human types, my Vulcan friend!

Here's the problem: whatever you think is bad about people who are pro-religion and anti-science, the same is bad about you but in reverse. Can you not see that you simply represent the opposite view to theirs, and that you are just as extreme and stuck to your own ideas as they are?

Science, logic, tests and experiments are not the only answer(s), and neither are faith, love, and/or tree hugging. Untill you are open to everything, you are closed to half of everything.

~ Org. [/b][/quote]

Nah, I've just chosen to live my life without resorting to belief/faith of any kind. To do so I have to use the aforementioned definition of faith. As others have said, most of the times when the word "believe" is used it can easily be replaced with the word "think".

Example:
I believe I'm going to make it home safe from work tonight.
Is very much the same as...
I think I'm going to make it home safe from work tonight.

I've come to that conclusion because on every other occasion I have in fact made it home from work safely. Trust me, I was there

Does this require faith or belief? Not at all. I hope I get home safely. I want to get home safely but am I certain I will? No. Only after I'm certain can I call it belief or faith. I don't even have to BE certain, I just need to think I'm certain to call it belief or faith.

Now, please help me figure out how I can dislike irrational emotional beings but still be so drawn to females :)

slaps himself for letting that comment out

Later,

LL

[LDS]

You gonna explain that one for me?

I imagine youre familiar with the story of the widow.
Where everyone was giving what they would, a widow came and gave something that was trivial compared to what the others were giving. And Christ said something along the lines of "This woman is greatest among you because she has given all she hath" It's not (or at least it shouldnt be) about the money. It should be about the sacrifice.

That is the higher law, 100%. We see it instituted among the Nephites after Christ appeared to them. "All things were held in common among them" (not to be confused with communism or socialism) wouldnt that have been great? No longer to have class struggle or poverty, not because the government forces us to, but because we WANT to.

[orgaelin]

No, it would be an end-game situation.

Once that happens, what's the plan?

Without struggle, we'd all die of boredom.