Is Truth personal?

[orgaelin]

For some people, the bible is Truth. For some, Truth is to be found inside them. For some Truth is to be found through a scientific viewpoint.

Is anyone right? Can anyone find Truth? Or is Truth less of a universal property and more of a personal one?

My own view is that Truth is unique to each person. What is true, is what is true for you.

Obviously that doesn't mean that if I believe the sky is pink it is true for me. There has to be some kind of line drawn, whereby if your personal definition of truth varies so much from the majority, you become insane.

The basic point is this: if you hold a certain view, you then go looking for evidence to support your view, while avoiding evidence which goes against your view. In the end, you can only find what you are looking for. We choose our truth and then we prove it to ourselves.

Thus someone who believes in an afterlife finds the 'proof' he needs, and one who believes in the simple 'you live, you die, get over it' philosophy finds everything he needs to 'prove' his hypothesis.

Is there any difference between a real truth and a view we have totally convinced ourselves is true? (Aside from the fact that others are unconvinced)

[Paavo]

We choose our truth and then we prove it to ourselves.

I like that phrase, and I've always thought it to make a good point. A fairly good micro-cosmos example is the internet, you decide you want to believe Elvis is still alive - you do a search which you know will return the answers you want to see in order to provide you with the "proof". You can find pro- and con proof for just about anything on the 'net.

I think it all boils down to how open minded you are. Are you ready to ignore the "pride" of being right about something? Are you capable of admitting to yourself that you've been wrong, and check the flipside of the coin? I think this is the case with pretty much anything, especially religion and politics and the likes.

Personally, I'm trying my very best to not attach myself to an ideology or concept on anything - but to keep my opinions floating just enough so I can, if needed, change them. Being stubborn and closed-minded is something that bugs the hell out of me. Ironically so is people who seem to be "anti-everything". So very often it just seems like it's "cool" to oppose for the sake of opposing. Errr, going a tad random there, sorry. :|

[orgaelin]

but to keep my opinions floating just enough so I can, if needed, change them

That's a lesseon I learned early. I got scolded by some angry woman because I used the phrase "I believe..." Her argument was that the very second you pin down your beliefs, you open yourself up to being wrong.

I can see now that she was right, even though I didn't at the time. If someone's made up their mind that Jesus is their saviour, no amount of sound reasoning from the likes of you or I is going to persuade them to see otherwise.

I don't give up though, because I once believed in the big J too. I also had all the worries and stresses of wondering how to hell to please a god that wants me to give away everything I have to the needy, and do nothing but preach in his name. And let's not be mistaken - the good book states quite clearly that you cannot enter heaven if you are rich, like nearly every single one of the Christians at my local church are!

If only they'd read the small print! LOL!

Um... what happened to the topic in question?!

Are you ready to ignore the "pride" of being right about something?

For many people it isn't about pride, or not just that any way. For some, myself included sometimes, there is a tendency to set your beliefs by what makes you feel comfortable.

Some people I speak to have that 'you live, you die, get over it' attitude and I just cannot understand them. I cannot fathom how they can go about their lives with the attitude that it's just a temporary fling before they head off to eternal inexistence!

But here's the thing: to them it isn't such a big deal. They have their attitude because it really hasn't occured to them that it wouldn't be that nice to cease to exist. They think dying is like sleep, and they do that every night without trouble.

Ignorance really is bliss?

I'm honest enough to say that I do guage some of my beliefs by what I am comfortable with, but, like you, I never pin them down to any level of certainty, and always remain open to new ideas and perspectives.

The only belief I hold to with certainty is that of balance. I believe that the primary purpose of existence is to strive towards balance, and that all things are but the micro- and macro-cosmic expressions of this striving.

Other than that I'm flexible!

...although I also am certain about what I don't believe. And that's a whole 'nother story!

[orgaelin]

Oh by the way, I laughed my ass off at that picture of yours - excellent excellent excellent! Even my son laughed! (He's 2)

[Technosoul]

Here is one concept worth thinking about.

"truth is relative to the moment at hand"

I might be watching a nice sunset and e-mail someone in another country about the pink sky I see. They go outside and see a blue sky or a gloomy grey sky because where they are at it is raining.

Which truth is true? All three are correct.

So the Big Truth is simply a source that shows us what is correct relative to a given moment in experience. If I feel saved by grace in that moment the feeling is real and thusly it is my reality, but not everyone would be in that same moment because they did not experience the "sermon" or the extra-reality experience and so they would not think I was saved or that they should know that same kind of reality as something true-blue. If I am high on a drug and see God in all his glory, in that moment it is real to my mind, but others who are not stoned at that some moment who are not under the influence would hold as truth that I was "out of my head" in some kind of grand illusion.

So one could establish a philosophy as their truth that all truths are just different kinds of illusions we experience relative to our circumstances and our personal experience at any given moment.

That we are simply mythological beings of a Myth.

Then we have some facts which we might reason are the truths. The sun is shinning (even if behind a cloud and even if the earth puts us into nightime by blocking our view). Fact, I think I am here and if I pinch my self it is a fact. Nature is the most perfect environment for knowing the truth about reality, because man made aritifical environments have established false impressions about reality, which reality becomes real relative to our living in a city. So what is closer to the truth, a machine of a tree? One could speculate that both are real even if a artifical car was subsituted for a real breathing horse. So a fake can be as real as the real thing - and one soft drink is not more honest then another soft drink about being the "real thing".

One man's trash is another man's treasure. One man's false idea is another man's truth. Again the philosophy assumes that truth is relative and not set in stone. Facts cannot explain a miracle but we can speculate that some fact could give us a logical reason for a miracle (once we discovered the fact with science).

So I have a story to tell and I will use a butterfly as a symobol for truth.

When I was a kid I wanted to collect butterflies as a hobby, I took my net out to capture them but it was very difficult because they somehow knew my intentions and would fly away, keeping a few feet ahead of me as I dashed after them in the fields. After great effort I got some and mounted my dead insects on a board, they looked pretty but offered little insight into what a butterfly is.

Then in later years I lost interest in running after butterflies and I was stilling still in the woods and what happened? A butterfly landed on my shirt and rested there. Sometimes if we stop trying so hard the truth will just come to us.

As it did Buddha when he gave up trying to find out the answers he wanted to know the truth about.

Now my mind is full of little butterflies fluttering around, giving wings to my soul.

Meditate, be still and know, create a void and wait for it to be filled with something. The script starts with a blank sheet of paper.

Truth is poetic and musical when spiritual, facts are the stones which are slow to change with the times. Be still as a rock and have patience with time for the transformations from one illusion to another illusion are only relative stages of a larger momentum.

Take the jouney and do not waste all day in the study of the signpost.

Heaven has many mansions, not just one box to be in.

Truth is being in the presence of the present.

Truth is the girl in the red dress thay you never dated (according to Charle Brown).

And so on, and on.

Technosoul.

[orgaelin]

Sometimes if we stop trying so hard the truth will just come to us.

Now *there* is a truth!

I liked all of what you had to say. But this in particular. It's part of a wider truth you might recognise:

That which you seek with desperation will always evade you, and that which you seek to not have will always find you. You are like a person in a swimming pool, thrashing about trying to get the beach ball. The more you struggle, the more it floats away from you. Better to be calm as the water, or calmer still, and let the ball come to you.

The butterfly story was cool too. Did you pick that one off the top of your head? If so, do you write poetry? And if not, you should, beacuse the ability to form analogies like that is what makes brilliant poetry... and, I think, brilliant understanding. Complex things can always be understod better by looking at less complex but similar things.

[PatrickHenry]

Sean has banned Truth from volconvo: http://www.volconvo.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2125

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by orgaelin, Now *there* is a truth! I liked all of what you had to say. But this in particular. It's part of a wider truth you might recognise: That which you seek with desperation will always evade you, and that which you seek to not have will always find you. You are like a person in a swimming pool, thrashing about trying to get the beach ball. The more you struggle, the more it floats away from you. Better to be calm as the water, or calmer still, and let the ball come to you. The butterfly story was cool too. Did you pick that one off the top of your head? If so, do you write poetry? And if not, you should, beacuse the ability to form analogies like that is what makes brilliant poetry... and, I think, brilliant understanding. Complex things can always be understod better by looking at less complex but similar things.

The butterfly story was an experience I had in real terms, but I added the anonolgy. The anology just came to me from out of the blue. I like to use the term "out of the blue" because that "title" fits what I believe better then some other titles people use.

The beach ball anonoly also works and we can see how struggling can make waves that are counter productive to our goals. I like that example.

Sometimes (another example) we can observe in a male-female relationship, if one person is trying to hard to hold on to the effection and attention of their girl friend (boy friend) they could unknowing be driving them further away, by always asking "where have you been, why were you talking to that other boy? Or by demanding too much attention from them when they need space for a little time to be alone. If they feel you do not trust them to be faithful they may very well become unfaithful because no one wants to be a prisoner of love under some form of dictatorship.

Our brain can be trusted to do a lot for us, it can automatically put things in simple order and it can return to balance what has gone wacko or what has become too extreme or one-sided. All we need to do is calm down and leave it alone long enough to get organized again. But we often panic and try to solve a problem which solution creates anothe problem that needs another solution and so forth, until we have layers upon layers of problems wrapped around the core problem like skins on an onion (a example often used).

Just like if I keep typing all these ideas I could end up masking the simple tureism with a multitude of interpretations of it.

Technosoul.

[5010]

Originally posted by orgaelin, Is anyone right? Can anyone find Truth? Or is Truth less of a universal property and more of a personal one?

Our senses are fallable. We are fooled by a clever illusions. Our logic is tainted by emotion. We are given facts by unreliable sources. Unreliable sources swear that other sources are true. Is it foolish to follow any professed truths?

I think the best we can hope for is to seek truth like a flower seeks the sun. If the shaded flower grows towards the reflection of the sun, then her goal is illusion, yet still she is nourished and true to her design by following it.

So what if the guide of my principles is illusion? Let me be true to the illusion!

[m5lange1]

Where is Lightbearer when you need him?
He used to get madder than Comrade at a Kerry rally when anyone suggested subjective truth.

He was funny... I miss him :(

[Technosoul]

I agree with 5010.

We have however some degree of common sense (sense that is common to most everyone) which is suggest in the anology that all flowers seek the same "universal" light. Also, a garden might have many different kinds of flowers, with different designs and patterns, and perhaps if we look real close each flower has some personal differences from other individual flowers of the same species.

And so we have humanity where everyone is seeking to grow towards the same light of truth but they express that growth in many different kinds of religions, or as a philosophy or as a science.

The rose is not the only real flower, they are all doing the same thing even if manifesting as a tulip, or some other type of flower.
Or as a weed.

Technosoul.

[5010]

Nice tech! I like!

Once there were 3 flowers. One was planted in the open field and grew straight and tall and was brilliantly beautiful because of the plentiful light. The 2nd was planted in the shade. She saw the beautiful one and tried to grow straight and tall, but she was forever in the shade and so she was dull and diminished. The 3rd was planted in the shade as well, but instead of growing straight like the beautiful sister, she grew diagonally towards the lighter blue at the edge of the shade. Then one day her top reached the edge of the shade and suddenly the full light of the sun was there before her. Bending towards it, she was nourished and was able to blossom as brilliantly as the sister who was planted in the open field.

Sometimes it is better to seek your own path to truth.

[The_Lone_Liberal]

Originally posted by m5lange1, Where is Lightbearer when you need him? He used to get madder than Comrade at a Kerry rally when anyone suggested subjective truth. (

There's one of the two phrases I was looking for in all the prior posts on this thread. Finally it shows up it refernce to someone who's not here.

"Subjective truth!"

Fact is we've been talking about subjective truth versus objective truth. I'd probably be siding with this "Lightbearer" to some degree. I really start muttering to myself when I hear stuff like "all truth is relative" and "nothing is black and white," and "there are no absolutes". Folks, please realize that words like "all", "nothing", and "no" are absolutes.

There in fact is such a thing as objective truth -- i.e., the absolute truth of something's existence, state, or non-existence -- no matter what our subjective take is on that truth. and objective truths. But here's a pearl for Lightbearer's disciples (apologies to Lightbearer for making light of his legacy): one objective truth is that there are indeed subjective truths -- reflections and refractions of the true light passing through the reality of human perceivers who give the objective physical universe a soul.

Glad I made that clear

[orgaelin]

Thanks for your replies everyone. I've been a little absent for a couple of days as my ISP shut me down, damn them!

I'm back but briefly, as my new horse arrives in a couple of hours and time is very limited.

Anywho, it seems there are two views here: 1)truth is subjective, and 2)truth is objective, but with subjectives included.

In the end I think I agree with the last guy... Liberal. Surely if there were no absolute or objective truths, nothing would exist?

Another related question to this, which I have personal interest in, is: to what extent to our beliefs control external reality? You've heard of people who have a negative outlook making negative things happen to them unconsciously... like women who always attract abusive men, etc.

Is it possible for our unconscious minds to influence our realities subtly, bringing our self-projected misfortune upon us? My wife does not believe this at all, yet she is most incredibly subject to it - she predicts the worse and always ends up right in the end!

If we predict the best, so long as we stick to credible ideas, can we influence things for the better? Do the positive beliefs of the optimist result in a more positive world for him? And can a simple change in viewpoint or perspective in life lead to a new and happy life?

I already think the answer is yes. But help me to convince my wife, as she just won't take it from me!!

[Gorgo]

Our beliefs are the filter through which we look at the world. Best not to believe, but rather to think and observe.

[orgaelin]

First sentence; true. Second sentence; maybe, but really not practical!

[5010]

Originally posted by Gorgo, Our beliefs are the filter through which we look at the world. Best not to believe, but rather to think and observe.

Sometimes. Observation allows the batter to hit a curve-ball. Faith allows the outfielder to catch it when the sun is in his eyes.

[orgaelin]

Most people would call that outfielder lucky before they considered whether or not he had faith... so if faith equates with luck... what does that say?!

~ Org.

[5010]

Originally posted by orgaelin, Most people would call that outfielder lucky before they considered whether or not he had faith... so if faith equates with luck... what does that say?!

Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. The outfielder can observe the beginning of the trajectory before the sun interferes. It is faith in their knowledge of physics (intuitively, probably) that allows them to not only believe that the ball is still in the same trajectory but predict where and when it will come within their grasp.

[orgaelin]

Now I'm confused. Are you a man of faith, science, or both?

~ Org.