The Devil made me do it

[Diogenes]

OK...so there's a billion-zillion threads on god and creation...and not a single one ( that I've found ) on the Devil...

this thread is directly to Christian, Jews, and Muslims primarily...because they all share interest in each others Scriptures, and they all believe the Genesis story...the Temptation stories, etc..

the Scriptures clearly identify an evil being that deceived Eve...and has been the root cause of evil upon the Earth...

Questions:

1. Do you really believe in a Devil?
2. What evidence of the Devil's existence would you provide?
3. Do you really believe in demon possession?
4. What evidence of demon possession would you provide?
5. If you do not believe in the Devil or demon possession, please explain the scriptures that state that there is both a Devil and demon possession.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Coming from a guy who doesn't believe in the devil I'll criticize the questioning

1)This question is going to cause confusion, since conception of the devil ranges from an abstraction of the evil present in humanity to literally an eveil being in your head trying to get you to kill that prostitute.
2)Same as asking for evidence of a god, we've done this before.
3)Better question, but still depends heavily on the flaws from 1
4)Now we're in to more concrete stuff.
5)Scriptures say a lot of things, and any theist worth his salt will know that much of it is heavily poetic and metaphoric, if not straight up myth.

[Diogenes]

You obviously did not read the post...

this thread is directly to Christian, Jews, and Muslims primarily

because they all share interest in each others Scriptures, and they all believe the Genesis story...the Temptation stories, etc.

and the questions were not specific for the very reason they may not share the same views. Remember we are dealing with 3 different religions who have their own scriptures but essentially are a unit.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Which is why I lead my post off by explaining I was criticizing the questioning, rather than trying to answer ones not directed at me. And the answers, especially to #1 will have much more to do with philosophical/theological outlook rather than whether they are Muslim, Christian, or Jewish.

[Diogenes]

Which is why I lead my post off by explaining I was criticizing the questioning, rather than trying to answer ones not directed at me. And the answers, especially to #1 will have much more to do with philosophical/theological outlook rather than whether they are Muslim, Christian, or Jewish.

I really do not get where you are coming from...they are meant to be basic questions...not all-encompassing questions...if your criticism is that they are not all-encompassing then you do not understand that they were not meant to be. So for what they were intended they are the perfect questions. Unless you are of the mind that the only good question is one that is complex and all-encompassing.

And I never said the answers depend upon them being Muslim, Christian, or Jewish...only that the questions were directed to them...the answers to the 1st question is in regard to how they interpret ' scripture ' not based upon what one they follow.

I did not mean for this thread to be a debate on how complex or all-encompassing questions need to be in order to ask a question...can we please stick to the topic. We can debate language and it's uses in another thread.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Given that no one else is responding, the question structure is important. And any question about religion has to be all encompassing, otherwise confusion ensues in such an individualized and highly ambiguous area of discussion.

[oades11]

Firstly, I'm an atheist, and I realize that though this thread is intended to be directed towards theists, others may still have something to contribute. So here's my two cents.
As far as I am aware, the Christian Bible makes no reference to Hell being a specific, physical place. It is merely the absence of God. So, if Satan/Lucifer/'The Devil' is the entity that governs Hell, then he ought to govern nothing at all, since God is omnipresent.

It almost sounds as if, scripturally, when you die, your soul vanishes entirely into nothingness, for that can be the only place, or 'nonplace', where God does not reside. Therefore, if we are to interpret God's omnipresence (which I'm not entirely sure the Bible mentions) as a corporeal, ubiquitous presence, then Satan only exists as an idea, just like Hell.

If omnipresence would be interpreted as applying to everything both corporeal and abstract, then Satan and Hell both must be a part of God Himself, which is extremely paradoxical.

[brisbane buddy]

Quote by: Diogenes OK...so there's a billion-zillion threads on god and creation...and not a single one ( that I've found ) on the Devil....

Personally I prefer the phrase, "Brother Pan made me do it."

Quote by: Diogenes this thread is directly to Christian, Jews, and Muslims primarily.......

Oh Goody, that means Agnostics can join in.

Quote by: Diogenes the Scriptures clearly identify an evil being that deceived Eve...and has been the root cause of evil upon the Earth...

Does it?? I would suggest that is one interpretaion. Many other probabilities out there from Christian, Jewish and Islamic principles. Personally I find that a bit narrow minded and binding.

Quote by: Diogenes Questions: 1. Do you really believe in a Devil? 2. What evidence of the Devil's existence would you provide? 3. Do you really believe in demon possession? 4. What evidence of demon possession would you provide? 5. If you do not believe in the Devil or demon possession, please explain the scriptures that state that there is both a Devil and demon possession.

1: In principal as it pertains to human nature..... Yes
2: As it pertains to human nature, it would be a little boy who sticks his finger in his sisters pie, just to see her cry or get a laugh from it himself.
3: Most definately Yes. It is a very serious psychiatric condition.
4: There is a lot of evidence pertaining to this condition, I would suggest you look it up yourself if you are that interested. Charles Manson would be a classic case to follow.
5: Demon possession has now been updated to a new terminology called mental impairment. Same thing only different name.

Cheers.

[minorwork]

Quote by: Diogenes 1. Do you really believe in a Devil? 2. What evidence of the Devil's existence would you provide? 3. Do you really believe in demon possession? 4. What evidence of demon possession would you provide? 5. If you do not believe in the Devil or demon possession, please explain the scriptures that state that there is both a Devil and demon possession.

1. Yes
2. Look in a mirror.
3. Seen it.
4. Seen it.
5. The source of error and of lies and is the equivalent of mind seeing cause and effect.

[mirutsa]

Quote by: Diogenes the Scriptures clearly identify an evil being that deceived Eve...and has been the root cause of evil upon the Earth...

I isolated this bit to construct a more concise response, as I don't have a lot of time.

The Bible never positively identifies the serpent as the devil in any scripture I can find. In Genesis, it is simply a serpent, described as the most clever animal in the garden.¹ The closest we ever get is a sideways metaphor of Satan as a "great dragon" and an "old serpent" in Revelation.² These kinds of images are run of the mill for that particular book, so it's hardly specific.

If there are more clear-cut links between Eden's serpent and Satan, I'd love to see what they are.

¹Genesis 3
- BibleGateway.com

²Revelation 12:9, 20:2
- BibleGateway.com
- BibleGateway.com

[Diogenes]

The Bible never positively identifies the serpent as the devil

true...which is why I said ' Scriptures clearly identify an evil being ' and not Satan or the Devil...I did not want to ' identify ' it as anything, I wanted people to provide their own answers as to their beliefs regarding my questions...I made no other attempt to ' lead ' ...
perhaps they weren't, as Gods_Mercenary pointed out, sophisticated enough for this crowd.

At any rate this thread is for all intent and purposes so far off-topic it no longer interests me.

[minorwork]

Entering into a room I find that though the whole of one wall is glass providing direct sunlight, and though every light in the room is on, there is a definite dimness, a darkness that no light can overcome. The victim's clothes are hot to the touch. All sounds seem to emanate from the possessed. Is this observation to be ascribed to the person possessed or to the observer in close proximity? I don't know.

[Compugasm]

1. No.
2. None.
3. Nope.
4. None.
5. Dr Seuss wrote about Wuzzles, it makes no sense to use Dr Seuss's book to prove that Wuzzles exist.

[brisbane buddy]

Sorry, Brother Pan made me do it.

When I was a little boy, And the devil would call my name I’d say now who do, Who do you think you’re fooling? I’m a consecrated boy I’m a singer in a Sunday choir Oh , my mama loves, she loves me She get down on her knees and hug me Like she loves me like a rock She rocks me like the rock of ages And loves me She love me, love me, love me, love me When I was grown to be a man And the devil would call my name I’d say now who do, Who do you think you’re fooling? I’m a consummated man I can snatch a little purity My mama loves me, she loves me She get down on her knees and hug me Like she loves me like a rock She rocks me like the rock of ages And loves me She love me, love me, love me, love me

Music and Lyrics by Paul Simon.

Cheers.

[Ken Carman]

I must be one of the oddest theists (with a caveat) here. A real, live Devil? No. Not in the sense the most people believe in. I do believe evil is, and evil acts are, collective and take on a life of their own. So in that sense... a qualifier to what I just typed.

Some of the Bible uses evil personified as a metaphor, much like the story of Adam and Eve is. I do believe the Devil, or at least references to a devil like being, were inserted much like they do so today, to threaten people into blindly obeying and following certain theological concepts and if not... shutting them up so as not to bother or... God forbid, challenge the holier than thous.

No are there those in the afterlife who have fallen? If there is an afterlife, yes, but I doubt there is an actual, physical domain. More like one of the mind. We make our own meme' we live by through attitude and actions, both here and any other place we may go. But this does not negate the hell others stick us in. We are by no means in total control, but we can sure make it worse no matter how bad it gets.

[mirutsa]

Quote by: Diogenes true...which is why I said ' Scriptures clearly identify an evil being ' and not Satan or the Devil...I did not want to ' identify ' it as anything, I wanted people to provide their own answers as to their beliefs regarding my questions...I made no other attempt to ' lead ' ... perhaps they weren't, as Gods_Mercenary pointed out, sophisticated enough for this crowd. At any rate this thread is for all intent and purposes so far off-topic it no longer interests me.

To Diogenes,
I apologize if I gave the impression of accusing you of leading. Please allow me to clarify that I was really just pointing out something interesting about the devil that I'd noticed. I was raised taking assumptions like "Satan was the snake" for granted. So that line in the OP sort of tickled my interest.

Since I'm not part of your target group, I'll go ahead and zip my lid now before I derail the thread.

[Diogenes]

To Diogenes, I apologize if I gave the impression of accusing you of leading. Please allow me to clarify that I was really just pointing out something interesting about the devil that I'd noticed. I was raised taking assumptions like "Satan was the snake" for granted. So that line in the OP sort of tickled my interest. Since I'm not part of your target group, I'll go ahead and zip my lid now before I derail the thread.

No problem I don't think this thread ever made it on-topic anyways.

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: oades11 Firstly, I'm an atheist, and I realize that though this thread is intended to be directed towards theists, others may still have something to contribute. So here's my two cents. As far as I am aware, the Christian Bible makes no reference to Hell being a specific, physical place. It is merely the absence of God. So, if Satan/Lucifer/'The Devil' is the entity that governs Hell, then he ought to govern nothing at all, since God is omnipresent. It almost sounds as if, scripturally, when you die, your soul vanishes entirely into nothingness, for that can be the only place, or 'nonplace', where God does not reside. Therefore, if we are to interpret God's omnipresence (which I'm not entirely sure the Bible mentions) as a corporeal, ubiquitous presence, then Satan only exists as an idea, just like Hell. If omnipresence would be interpreted as applying to everything both corporeal and abstract, then Satan and Hell both must be a part of God Himself, which is extremely paradoxical.

Agreed... If you believe in the scriptural god, you have to believe in the devil also, as ultimately, they are one and the same, and not the irreconcilable opposites so many believers see them as.

Logically, unless you can explain this apparent duality away (which is impossible) - then god is diminished, and not in any sense omnipotent, since he has to share power with a rival. So god must also be the devil...

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: GeminiBrian Agreed... If you believe in the scriptural god, you have to believe in the devil also, as ultimately, they are one and the same, and not the irreconcilable opposites so many believers see them as. Logically, unless you can explain this apparent duality away (which is impossible) - then god is diminished, and not in any sense omnipotent, since he has to share power with a rival. So god must also be the devil...

Interesting conundrum...

"...then god is diminished, and not in any sense omnipotent, since he has to share power with a rival. So god must also be the devil..."

A caveat on your scriptural comment. I would agree if you believe the scriptures 100% describe God: without error; his powers, his dominion and other elements to the ancient battle well and as something that's not a metaphor. Of course, I don't accept that premise and find it absurd.

[GeminiBrian]

Quote by: Ken Carman Interesting conundrum.. A caveat on your scriptural comment. I would agree if you believe the scriptures 100% describe God: without error; his powers, his dominion and other elements to the ancient battle well and as something that's not a metaphor. Of course, I don't accept that premise and find it absurd.

As a non-believer in the supernatural origin of any scripture, that is not my problem. However, there are many who constantly assert that the bible contains no errors of any kind, and it up to such as them to attempt to justify the many paradoxes that arise from this.

Others resort to cherry-picking from scripture - and in a sense they are even less credible than the 'fundies' - because at least the latter are consistent in their inflexibility. These other apologists will always tie themselves in hopeless knots in attempting to rationalise the irrational.