Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

feenyx13 · Feb 14, 2004, 09:23 am

Hello everyone, new here, and this will be quick...while I myself am not religious ( yet not athiest either ) I am deeply curious about the oigins of myth and culture. To that end, I might recommend an *excellent* book written and extensively researched by Sir Lawrence Gardener on the life of Jesus and his "sangreal", or royal lineage; "The Bloodline of the Holy Grail". Just awesome in scope! The author's credits alone are astonishing, this guy is no hack. If nothing else, check out some of the debate online.

sdcinder · Feb 14, 2004, 08:27 pm

And in the "Holy Grail" it would mean that Jesus was a liar and well, that doesn't fulfill any prophecy at all. And well, all those other "secret" societies that funded all the wars ever and the staff of the Roman guard that peirced Jesus' side which is said to give world power to the man that owns it including Hitler, and yadda yadda. Either Jesus was who He said He was or He was a liar. Which can it be? Do you really think that Jesus would marry Mary Magdelene, a prostitute, and have children by her? Come on. But then, some people think and feel the same way about my Bible. Even "smart" people can be crazy.

Stoni · Feb 14, 2004, 11:46 pm

"Do you really think that Jesus would marry Mary Magdelene, a prostitute,"

The bible does not say that Mary Magdelene was a prostitute and the church has since apologized for slandering her by linking verses, which WERE about a prostitute, to her.

PeterAngelo · Feb 18, 2004, 03:45 pm

Why not? Prostitutes are the only "real" women who aren't living in denial and fantasyland.

Jesus was a rebel, liberal, hippie pain in the ass - that's why they hated him as much as the neocons hate Ralph Nadar today.

The religious right are really devils using Jesus to justify making life on earth a living, serial-killing hell. The perfect trick - use the faithful "sheep" to slaughter themselves for the profit of the pope and his war machines.

Jesus died so YOU could continue to sin like the retarded cowards you all are.

If he were alive today Jerry Falwell would crucify him at the Vatican on pay per view - and the ratings would go to the sky.

Jesus was a liberal who embraced the "least among us"

Today's neocons are the opposite - they live by bombing the least among us for oil and safety.

Thank god for prostitutes - at least there is a reason to hang around this craphole planet full or retarded cowards and barbarians.

Kyran · Mar 17, 2004, 07:53 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PeterAngelo,)
Why not? Prostitutes are the only "real" women who aren't living in denial and fantasyland.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

An excellent point. Everybody knows all women are sluts. This is indisputable! Sure it might sound sexist to others, but these are just plain ordinary facts of life...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PeterAngelo,)
Jesus died so YOU could continue to sin like the retarded cowards you all are.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Sarcasm mode is now off.

Who are you calling coward? I suppose it takes balls to talk trash on the internet. Yeah...you're a Big Man aren't you? A big man with a big keyboard who'll never get caught saying stuff behind people's backs...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PeterAngelo,)
Today's neocons are the opposite - they live by bombing the least among us for oil and safety.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Dammit why haven't gas prices gone down with all the oil we plundered? Who's hoarding our spoils of victory?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PeterAngelo,)
Thank god for prostitutes - at least there is a reason to hang around this craphole planet full or retarded cowards and barbarians.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Does this mean you won't kill yourself now? Too bad. Earth would be a lot happier without you.

God knows how'd you get any if there weren't sluts in the world. Why don't you show your wife/girlfriend/f***buddy your post here sometime? Being honest with your feelings is part of a relationship ya know.

Pathetic. I will bask in the laughter I cause from ridiculing your sexist hateful attitude.

mlingley · Mar 17, 2004, 02:24 pm

I believe in Jesus Christ. He was the lord and savior of the world.
I don't need facts to back this up, I have faith. That is what it is all about. I believe in what he said and did. I try everyday to be the best person I can be.. even thought I fail on a daily basis just like everybody else. No one is perfect.

While I am a Christian I also believe that all religions of the world are basically saying the same thing. All religions give instructions how to live your life.. don't steal, don't kill, love your neighbor.. blah blah blah.

Humanity is a failure in this respect. People are so caught up in the details they fail to see the big picture. We need to look past our differences.. and stop trying to control one another.

I do believe in God. I do believe in Jesus.. he was a real person. I do not believe in organized religion. You don't have to go to church to be a good Christian. By doing that your giving up on God and focusing on a middle man. I don't want a preacher telling me what is right and what is wrong and what this means or that means. I read my bible and make up my own mind.

Humanity needs to learn to be selfless and love one another. We need to humble our selves before God our creator, and learn to share willingly. Otherwise... we are headed for a shit-storm.

lostkiwi · Mar 18, 2004, 02:46 am

Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

In other words believing in something in spite of the world telling you it's wrong. How many virgin births have you heard of? How many people do you know that came back from the dead days after he was brutally killed and buried? How many "sons of god" do you know?

I should clarify these questions by asking how many of these things have happened in the scientific age when people actually had an Idea how what it takes to conceive a child and what it means to be dead.

If you want to believe in the Myth that is Jesus Christ fine, but don't pretend it to be historic fact. The closest you have there is that the originator of the "Christian" faith growing in Judea and Rome was killed by the governor of Judea (Pontius Palitus) during Tiberius' reign (for the crime of sedition). That's it. That's the closest thing you have to an unbiased account of Jesus Christ.

Everything in the bible about Christ is borrowed heavily from other religions or from the Old Testament itself. Everything written about Christ in the New Testament (mark, matthew & luke) was recorded either 60 years or over 100 years after Christ’s death. Do you really expect it to be completely accurate? No embellishments, no half-truths, no morality tales? Or do you expect me to believe that having an invisible man in the sky doing all of your editing actually has any effect?

Samildanach · Mar 18, 2004, 05:46 am

You can't convince a fanatic that his viewpoint is wrong even though it is basically unsupported Kiwi. You might as well learn that now.
I have argued this countless times with countless fanatics and they all say the same thing. You have your Muslim fanatics you have your Christian fanatics and all your other fanatics out there. At least the Muslim ones are prepared to die for what they believe in, that in itself is pretty gutsy. I have a bit of respect for them that way. I don't know many Christians that would do the same today.

Jungliestner · Mar 18, 2004, 06:17 am

I. Jesus (A.S.)

Muslims do believe that Isa (A.S.) was sent down as a Prophet of Allah (God), but he (Jesus) is not God or Lord, nor the son of God. Muslims do not believe that Isa (A.S.), also known as Jesus by Christians and others, is dead or was ever crucified. We believe that he was raised to heaven and is there, and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world. Like Jesus (A.S.), Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is also a Prophet and Messenger. Muhammed (P.B.U.H.) is the last Prophet, though, and there is none after him. Hence, Islam is the last religion, complete, with the Holy Qur'an as the unchanged and perfect word of God for over 1400 years, as God promised to preserve it till the last day for all of humankind, unlike sacred texts of other religions which have mulitple versions and are "revised" periodically. God, or Allah in Arabic, is Divine and Supreme Being and Creator.

Want to read more about him : http://www.familybible.org/Teaching/Religi...Jesus-Islam.htm

lostkiwi · Mar 18, 2004, 10:44 pm

So what you're saying ,Jungliestner, is that Allah is the perfected verson of the invisable man in the sky Myth people have been buying into for the last 4 centurys?

Cool!

Poetic_Justice · Mar 19, 2004, 01:03 am

show some respect man... Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean you have to be an ass...

lostkiwi · Mar 19, 2004, 04:53 pm

Sorry, not trying to be disrespectful, just trying to make a point.

By the way, how do you think the Mormans feel about Muhammed being the last Prophet and Messenger. Kind of messes things up for them, no?

dotcoma · Mar 19, 2004, 05:40 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
before you read the anti christ read the geneaology of morals and twilight of the idols...

http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechann...el/ntexteng.htm

mind you, these are not complete books, you'll have to visit the book store or library...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

AHA! Nietzsche. I f@cking knew it. Everything you say is suspect from here on out.

dotcoma · Mar 19, 2004, 05:41 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (lostkiwi,)
Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

In other words believing in something in spite of the world telling you it's wrong. How many virgin births have you heard of? How many people do you know that came back from the dead days after he was brutally killed and buried? How many "sons of god" do you know?

I should clarify these questions by asking how many of these things have happened in the scientific age when people actually had an Idea how what it takes to conceive a child and what it means to be dead.

If you want to believe in the Myth that is Jesus Christ fine, but don't pretend it to be historic fact. The closest you have there is that the originator of the "Christian" faith growing in Judea and Rome was killed by the governor of Judea (Pontius Palitus) during Tiberius' reign (for the crime of sedition). That's it. That's the closest thing you have to an unbiased account of Jesus Christ.

Everything in the bible about Christ is borrowed heavily from other religions or from the Old Testament itself. Everything written about Christ in the New Testament (mark, matthew & luke) was recorded either 60 years or over 100 years after Christ’s death. Do you really expect it to be completely accurate? No embellishments, no half-truths, no morality tales? Or do you expect me to believe that having an invisible man in the sky doing all of your editing actually has any effect?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Logic...ha....

Impenitent · Mar 20, 2004, 01:36 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
before you read the anti christ read the geneaology of morals and twilight of the idols...

http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechann...el/ntexteng.htm

mind you, these are not complete books, you'll have to visit the book store or library...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

AHA! Nietzsche. I f@cking knew it. Everything you say is suspect from here on out.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

as if it wasn't in YOUR mind before you read that post...

shunyadragon · Mar 20, 2004, 08:43 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,)
I believe in Jesus Christ. He was the lord and savior of the world.
I don't need facts to back this up, I have faith. That is what it is all about. I believe in what he said and did. I try everyday to be the best person I can be.. even thought I fail on a daily basis just like everybody else. No one is perfect.

While I am a Christian I also believe that all religions of the world are basically saying the same thing. All religions give instructions how to live your life.. don't steal, don't kill, love your neighbor.. blah blah blah.

Humanity is a failure in this respect. People are so caught up in the details they fail to see the big picture. We need to look past our differences.. and stop trying to control one another.

I do believe in God. I do believe in Jesus.. he was a real person. I do not believe in organized religion. You don't have to go to church to be a good Christian. By doing that your giving up on God and focusing on a middle man. I don't want a preacher telling me what is right and what is wrong and what this means or that means. I read my bible and make up my own mind.

Humanity needs to learn to be selfless and love one another. We need to humble our selves before God our creator, and learn to share willingly. Otherwise... we are headed for a shit-storm.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Judgement is a heavy weight to have around your neck.

Frank

warriorcell · Mar 20, 2004, 10:50 pm

All religions serve one ultimately essential purpose: To raise man above nature. As Ernest Becker suggested,we could not function if we believed that we were not inherently more valuable than an ape,lizard or lima bean. As we are created "in the image of god" we are the chosen species and therefore have a purpose in life: To serve our particular diety of choice. Without that purpose we as humans could not function, what would be the point ? Are we as infact as fickel as all other living things ?

"God says we are special ... we must be! Everything is below us! (atleast in christianity) Lets rape the planet!"

shunyadragon · Mar 21, 2004, 09:07 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (warriorcell,)
All religions serve one ultimately essential purpose: To raise man above nature. As Ernest Becker suggested,we could not function if we believed that we were not inherently more valuable than an ape,lizard or lima bean. As we are created "in the image of god" we are the chosen species and therefore have a purpose in life: To serve our particular diety of choice. Without that purpose we as humans could not function, what would be the point ? Are we as infact as fickel as all other living things ?

"God says we are special ... we must be! Everything is below us! (atleast in christianity) Lets rape the planet!"<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Both the last and the first part of the last statement apply more to the Christian western nations than anyother. It sort of goes along with belief in manifest destiny.

I do not know who Ernest Becker is, but based on his statement he is not in touch with reality. I believe the purpose of religion is to enlighten and elevate humanity, but not above nature.

I will go into this further a little later. Who is Ernest Becker?

Mar 25, 2004, 11:39 pm

Jesus' crusifixion was a minor event at the time. The records of the crux. wer destroyed in a fire so that's why no historian from the time mentions it. The "Jesus" type story is common in ancient religions, ever since man became agricultural there are references to individuals dying and being reborn. Jesus was aware of these stories, and especially aware of stories predicting a messiah. He tried to position himself as this messiah fullfiling prophecies. Much of the Gospels, and other relevant writings also portray Jesus as this promised messiah.
Mary has assumed much of the mother goddess mythology. Female goddesses were very important throughout man's history. Not until Christian times did the female diety start taking such a back seat to the males. Much of the mythology surrounding Mary is "borrowed" directly from Artemis, the dominant female deity in the ancient world. Artemis was also supposedly a virgin and assumed into heaven bodily from the exact same town Mary was. Hmmmm coincidence?
I don't know about Jesus appearing on the cross til the 9th century, that seems a bit late to me, but the cross was almost immediately used as a Christian symbol.

Jesus and Mary were definitely not Myths, but the stories were certainly cooked in order to support prophecy and the generation of an organized religion. Jesus' original message was that we don't need a church or cadre of priest to access the deity. This is further supported by the legend that Jesus travelled and studied in the East possibly India, where the Brahman period of Hinduism was prevelant. Brahman Hinduism is very much about finding the deity within, the Atman, and connecting with the deity without, the Brahman. Saint Issa, is still mentioned by Muslims and is considered to have been Jesus.

shunyadragon · Mar 26, 2004, 04:08 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dave654,)
Jesus' crusifixion was a minor event at the time. The records of the crux. wer destroyed in a fire so that's why no historian from the time mentions it. The "Jesus" type story is common in ancient religions, ever since man became agricultural there are references to individuals dying and being reborn. Jesus was aware of these stories, and especially aware of stories predicting a messiah. He tried to position himself as this messiah fullfiling prophecies. Much of the Gospels, and other relevant writings also portray Jesus as this promised messiah. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

The story that the crux records were destroyed in a fire is a new one for me.
Do you have a source for this story? My understanding is that there were so many crucifictins that records were not always kept or reliable especially for common criminals and common crimes like that of Jesus.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Mary has assumed much of the mother goddess mythology. Female goddesses were very important throughout man's history. Not until Christian times did the female diety start taking such a back seat to the males. Much of the mythology surrounding Mary is "borrowed" directly from Artemis, the dominant female deity in the ancient world. Artemis was also supposedly a virgin and assumed into heaven bodily from the exact same town Mary was. Hmmmm coincidence? <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Interesting connection, most religions of the world have the goddess in one form or another.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I don't know about Jesus appearing on the cross til the 9th century, that seems a bit late to me, but the cross was almost immediately used as a Christian symbol. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I thought the fish was an earlier symbol. When did the cross first appear?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Jesus and Mary were definitely not Myths, but the stories were certainly cooked in order to support prophecy and the generation of an organized religion. Jesus' original message was that we don't need a church or cadre of priest to access the deity. This is further supported by the legend that Jesus travelled and studied in the East possibly India, where the Brahman period of Hinduism was prevelant. Brahman Hinduism is very much about finding the deity within, the Atman, and connecting with the deity without, the Brahman. Saint Issa, is still mentioned by Muslims and is considered to have been Jesus.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I agree that Jesus and Mary were real persons, but not all detractors of Biblical history may not agree, because of the lack of records. Zorastrian and Mithra traditions are also intimately connected to Jesus. Most Mithrites became Christians in the early history of the church and Mithrism disappeared.

Feb 14, 2004, 08:27 pm	#42 (permalink) (top)
sdcinder Molten Ash Location: South Dakota Posts: 26	And in the "Holy Grail" it would mean that Jesus was a liar and well, that doesn't fulfill any prophecy at all. And well, all those other "secret" societies that funded all the wars ever and the staff of the Roman guard that peirced Jesus' side which is said to give world power to the man that owns it including Hitler, and yadda yadda. Either Jesus was who He said He was or He was a liar. Which can it be? Do you really think that Jesus would marry Mary Magdelene, a prostitute, and have children by her? Come on. But then, some people think and feel the same way about my Bible. Even "smart" people can be crazy. C. Bogue "There's room for all God's creatures, right next to the fried taters!"

Mar 17, 2004, 07:53 am	#45 (permalink) (top)
Kyran Igneous Magma Location: East Coast, USA Posts: 451	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PeterAngelo,) Why not? Prostitutes are the only "real" women who aren't living in denial and fantasyland.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> An excellent point. Everybody knows all women are sluts. This is indisputable! Sure it might sound sexist to others, but these are just plain ordinary facts of life... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PeterAngelo,) Jesus died so YOU could continue to sin like the retarded cowards you all are.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Sarcasm mode is now off. Who are you calling coward? I suppose it takes balls to talk trash on the internet. Yeah...you're a Big Man aren't you? A big man with a big keyboard who'll never get caught saying stuff behind people's backs... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PeterAngelo,) Today's neocons are the opposite - they live by bombing the least among us for oil and safety.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Dammit why haven't gas prices gone down with all the oil we plundered? Who's hoarding our spoils of victory? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PeterAngelo,) Thank god for prostitutes - at least there is a reason to hang around this craphole planet full or retarded cowards and barbarians.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Does this mean you won't kill yourself now? Too bad. Earth would be a lot happier without you. God knows how'd you get any if there weren't sluts in the world. Why don't you show your wife/girlfriend/f***buddy your post here sometime? Being honest with your feelings is part of a relationship ya know. Pathetic. I will bask in the laughter I cause from ridiculing your sexist hateful attitude.

Mar 18, 2004, 05:46 am	#48 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	You can't convince a fanatic that his viewpoint is wrong even though it is basically unsupported Kiwi. You might as well learn that now. I have argued this countless times with countless fanatics and they all say the same thing. You have your Muslim fanatics you have your Christian fanatics and all your other fanatics out there. At least the Muslim ones are prepared to die for what they believe in, that in itself is pretty gutsy. I have a bit of respect for them that way. I don't know many Christians that would do the same today. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Mar 19, 2004, 05:40 pm	#53 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) before you read the anti christ read the geneaology of morals and twilight of the idols... http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechann...el/ntexteng.htm mind you, these are not complete books, you'll have to visit the book store or library...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> AHA! Nietzsche. I f@cking knew it. Everything you say is suspect from here on out.

Mar 19, 2004, 05:41 pm	#54 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (lostkiwi,) Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. In other words believing in something in spite of the world telling you it's wrong. How many virgin births have you heard of? How many people do you know that came back from the dead days after he was brutally killed and buried? How many "sons of god" do you know? I should clarify these questions by asking how many of these things have happened in the scientific age when people actually had an Idea how what it takes to conceive a child and what it means to be dead. If you want to believe in the Myth that is Jesus Christ fine, but don't pretend it to be historic fact. The closest you have there is that the originator of the "Christian" faith growing in Judea and Rome was killed by the governor of Judea (Pontius Palitus) during Tiberius' reign (for the crime of sedition). That's it. That's the closest thing you have to an unbiased account of Jesus Christ. Everything in the bible about Christ is borrowed heavily from other religions or from the Old Testament itself. Everything written about Christ in the New Testament (mark, matthew & luke) was recorded either 60 years or over 100 years after Christ’s death. Do you really expect it to be completely accurate? No embellishments, no half-truths, no morality tales? Or do you expect me to believe that having an invisible man in the sky doing all of your editing actually has any effect?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Logic...ha....

Feb 14, 2004, 09:23 am	#41 (permalink) (top)
feenyx13 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 3	Hello everyone, new here, and this will be quick...while I myself am not religious ( yet not athiest either ) I am deeply curious about the oigins of myth and culture. To that end, I might recommend an excellent book written and extensively researched by Sir Lawrence Gardener on the life of Jesus and his "sangreal", or royal lineage; "The Bloodline of the Holy Grail". Just awesome in scope! The author's credits alone are astonishing, this guy is no hack. If nothing else, check out some of the debate online.

Feb 14, 2004, 11:46 pm	#43 (permalink) (top)
Stoni Sedimentary Rock Posts: 3	"Do you really think that Jesus would marry Mary Magdelene, a prostitute," The bible does not say that Mary Magdelene was a prostitute and the church has since apologized for slandering her by linking verses, which WERE about a prostitute, to her.

Feb 18, 2004, 03:45 pm	#44 (permalink) (top)
PeterAngelo Igneous Magma Posts: 169	Why not? Prostitutes are the only "real" women who aren't living in denial and fantasyland. Jesus was a rebel, liberal, hippie pain in the ass - that's why they hated him as much as the neocons hate Ralph Nadar today. The religious right are really devils using Jesus to justify making life on earth a living, serial-killing hell. The perfect trick - use the faithful "sheep" to slaughter themselves for the profit of the pope and his war machines. Jesus died so YOU could continue to sin like the retarded cowards you all are. If he were alive today Jerry Falwell would crucify him at the Vatican on pay per view - and the ratings would go to the sky. Jesus was a liberal who embraced the "least among us" Today's neocons are the opposite - they live by bombing the least among us for oil and safety. Thank god for prostitutes - at least there is a reason to hang around this craphole planet full or retarded cowards and barbarians.

Mar 17, 2004, 02:24 pm	#46 (permalink) (top)
mlingley Molten Ash Posts: 120	I believe in Jesus Christ. He was the lord and savior of the world. I don't need facts to back this up, I have faith. That is what it is all about. I believe in what he said and did. I try everyday to be the best person I can be.. even thought I fail on a daily basis just like everybody else. No one is perfect. While I am a Christian I also believe that all religions of the world are basically saying the same thing. All religions give instructions how to live your life.. don't steal, don't kill, love your neighbor.. blah blah blah. Humanity is a failure in this respect. People are so caught up in the details they fail to see the big picture. We need to look past our differences.. and stop trying to control one another. I do believe in God. I do believe in Jesus.. he was a real person. I do not believe in organized religion. You don't have to go to church to be a good Christian. By doing that your giving up on God and focusing on a middle man. I don't want a preacher telling me what is right and what is wrong and what this means or that means. I read my bible and make up my own mind. Humanity needs to learn to be selfless and love one another. We need to humble our selves before God our creator, and learn to share willingly. Otherwise... we are headed for a shit-storm.

Mar 18, 2004, 02:46 am	#47 (permalink) (top)
lostkiwi Molten Ash Posts: 60	Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. In other words believing in something in spite of the world telling you it's wrong. How many virgin births have you heard of? How many people do you know that came back from the dead days after he was brutally killed and buried? How many "sons of god" do you know? I should clarify these questions by asking how many of these things have happened in the scientific age when people actually had an Idea how what it takes to conceive a child and what it means to be dead. If you want to believe in the Myth that is Jesus Christ fine, but don't pretend it to be historic fact. The closest you have there is that the originator of the "Christian" faith growing in Judea and Rome was killed by the governor of Judea (Pontius Palitus) during Tiberius' reign (for the crime of sedition). That's it. That's the closest thing you have to an unbiased account of Jesus Christ. Everything in the bible about Christ is borrowed heavily from other religions or from the Old Testament itself. Everything written about Christ in the New Testament (mark, matthew & luke) was recorded either 60 years or over 100 years after Christ’s death. Do you really expect it to be completely accurate? No embellishments, no half-truths, no morality tales? Or do you expect me to believe that having an invisible man in the sky doing all of your editing actually has any effect?

Mar 18, 2004, 06:17 am	#49 (permalink) (top)
Jungliestner Sedimentary Rock Posts: 15	I. Jesus (A.S.) Muslims do believe that Isa (A.S.) was sent down as a Prophet of Allah (God), but he (Jesus) is not God or Lord, nor the son of God. Muslims do not believe that Isa (A.S.), also known as Jesus by Christians and others, is dead or was ever crucified. We believe that he was raised to heaven and is there, and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world. Like Jesus (A.S.), Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is also a Prophet and Messenger. Muhammed (P.B.U.H.) is the last Prophet, though, and there is none after him. Hence, Islam is the last religion, complete, with the Holy Qur'an as the unchanged and perfect word of God for over 1400 years, as God promised to preserve it till the last day for all of humankind, unlike sacred texts of other religions which have mulitple versions and are "revised" periodically. God, or Allah in Arabic, is Divine and Supreme Being and Creator. Want to read more about him : http://www.familybible.org/Teaching/Religi...Jesus-Islam.htm

Mar 18, 2004, 10:44 pm	#50 (permalink) (top)
lostkiwi Molten Ash Posts: 60	So what you're saying ,Jungliestner, is that Allah is the perfected verson of the invisable man in the sky Myth people have been buying into for the last 4 centurys? Cool!

Mar 19, 2004, 01:03 am	#51 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	show some respect man... Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean you have to be an ass...

Mar 19, 2004, 04:53 pm	#52 (permalink) (top)
lostkiwi Molten Ash Posts: 60	Sorry, not trying to be disrespectful, just trying to make a point. By the way, how do you think the Mormans feel about Muhammed being the last Prophet and Messenger. Kind of messes things up for them, no?

Mar 20, 2004, 01:36 am	#55 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) before you read the anti christ read the geneaology of morals and twilight of the idols... http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechann...el/ntexteng.htm mind you, these are not complete books, you'll have to visit the book store or library...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> AHA! Nietzsche. I f@cking knew it. Everything you say is suspect from here on out.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> as if it wasn't in YOUR mind before you read that post... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 20, 2004, 08:43 am	#56 (permalink) (top)
shunyadragon Hot Lava Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 940	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,) I believe in Jesus Christ. He was the lord and savior of the world. I don't need facts to back this up, I have faith. That is what it is all about. I believe in what he said and did. I try everyday to be the best person I can be.. even thought I fail on a daily basis just like everybody else. No one is perfect. While I am a Christian I also believe that all religions of the world are basically saying the same thing. All religions give instructions how to live your life.. don't steal, don't kill, love your neighbor.. blah blah blah. Humanity is a failure in this respect. People are so caught up in the details they fail to see the big picture. We need to look past our differences.. and stop trying to control one another. I do believe in God. I do believe in Jesus.. he was a real person. I do not believe in organized religion. You don't have to go to church to be a good Christian. By doing that your giving up on God and focusing on a middle man. I don't want a preacher telling me what is right and what is wrong and what this means or that means. I read my bible and make up my own mind. Humanity needs to learn to be selfless and love one another. We need to humble our selves before God our creator, and learn to share willingly. Otherwise... we are headed for a shit-storm.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Judgement is a heavy weight to have around your neck. Frank The empty cup contains the most Frank A Doonan Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk www.shunyadragon.com I do not know, therefore I think . . .

Mar 20, 2004, 10:50 pm	#57 (permalink) (top)
warriorcell Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	All religions serve one ultimately essential purpose: To raise man above nature. As Ernest Becker suggested,we could not function if we believed that we were not inherently more valuable than an ape,lizard or lima bean. As we are created "in the image of god" we are the chosen species and therefore have a purpose in life: To serve our particular diety of choice. Without that purpose we as humans could not function, what would be the point ? Are we as infact as fickel as all other living things ? "God says we are special ... we must be! Everything is below us! (atleast in christianity) Lets rape the planet!"

Mar 21, 2004, 09:07 am	#58 (permalink) (top)
shunyadragon Hot Lava Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 940	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (warriorcell,) All religions serve one ultimately essential purpose: To raise man above nature. As Ernest Becker suggested,we could not function if we believed that we were not inherently more valuable than an ape,lizard or lima bean. As we are created "in the image of god" we are the chosen species and therefore have a purpose in life: To serve our particular diety of choice. Without that purpose we as humans could not function, what would be the point ? Are we as infact as fickel as all other living things ? "God says we are special ... we must be! Everything is below us! (atleast in christianity) Lets rape the planet!"<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Both the last and the first part of the last statement apply more to the Christian western nations than anyother. It sort of goes along with belief in manifest destiny. I do not know who Ernest Becker is, but based on his statement he is not in touch with reality. I believe the purpose of religion is to enlighten and elevate humanity, but not above nature. I will go into this further a little later. Who is Ernest Becker? The empty cup contains the most Frank A Doonan Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk www.shunyadragon.com I do not know, therefore I think . . .

Mar 25, 2004, 11:39 pm	#59 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	Jesus' crusifixion was a minor event at the time. The records of the crux. wer destroyed in a fire so that's why no historian from the time mentions it. The "Jesus" type story is common in ancient religions, ever since man became agricultural there are references to individuals dying and being reborn. Jesus was aware of these stories, and especially aware of stories predicting a messiah. He tried to position himself as this messiah fullfiling prophecies. Much of the Gospels, and other relevant writings also portray Jesus as this promised messiah. Mary has assumed much of the mother goddess mythology. Female goddesses were very important throughout man's history. Not until Christian times did the female diety start taking such a back seat to the males. Much of the mythology surrounding Mary is "borrowed" directly from Artemis, the dominant female deity in the ancient world. Artemis was also supposedly a virgin and assumed into heaven bodily from the exact same town Mary was. Hmmmm coincidence? I don't know about Jesus appearing on the cross til the 9th century, that seems a bit late to me, but the cross was almost immediately used as a Christian symbol. Jesus and Mary were definitely not Myths, but the stories were certainly cooked in order to support prophecy and the generation of an organized religion. Jesus' original message was that we don't need a church or cadre of priest to access the deity. This is further supported by the legend that Jesus travelled and studied in the East possibly India, where the Brahman period of Hinduism was prevelant. Brahman Hinduism is very much about finding the deity within, the Atman, and connecting with the deity without, the Brahman. Saint Issa, is still mentioned by Muslims and is considered to have been Jesus.

Mar 26, 2004, 04:08 am	#60 (permalink) (top)
shunyadragon Hot Lava Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 940	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (dave654,) Jesus' crusifixion was a minor event at the time. The records of the crux. wer destroyed in a fire so that's why no historian from the time mentions it. The "Jesus" type story is common in ancient religions, ever since man became agricultural there are references to individuals dying and being reborn. Jesus was aware of these stories, and especially aware of stories predicting a messiah. He tried to position himself as this messiah fullfiling prophecies. Much of the Gospels, and other relevant writings also portray Jesus as this promised messiah. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The story that the crux records were destroyed in a fire is a new one for me. Do you have a source for this story? My understanding is that there were so many crucifictins that records were not always kept or reliable especially for common criminals and common crimes like that of Jesus. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Mary has assumed much of the mother goddess mythology. Female goddesses were very important throughout man's history. Not until Christian times did the female diety start taking such a back seat to the males. Much of the mythology surrounding Mary is "borrowed" directly from Artemis, the dominant female deity in the ancient world. Artemis was also supposedly a virgin and assumed into heaven bodily from the exact same town Mary was. Hmmmm coincidence? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Interesting connection, most religions of the world have the goddess in one form or another. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I don't know about Jesus appearing on the cross til the 9th century, that seems a bit late to me, but the cross was almost immediately used as a Christian symbol. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I thought the fish was an earlier symbol. When did the cross first appear? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Jesus and Mary were definitely not Myths, but the stories were certainly cooked in order to support prophecy and the generation of an organized religion. Jesus' original message was that we don't need a church or cadre of priest to access the deity. This is further supported by the legend that Jesus travelled and studied in the East possibly India, where the Brahman period of Hinduism was prevelant. Brahman Hinduism is very much about finding the deity within, the Atman, and connecting with the deity without, the Brahman. Saint Issa, is still mentioned by Muslims and is considered to have been Jesus.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I agree that Jesus and Mary were real persons, but not all detractors of Biblical history may not agree, because of the lack of records. Zorastrian and Mithra traditions are also intimately connected to Jesus. Most Mithrites became Christians in the early history of the church and Mithrism disappeared. The empty cup contains the most Frank A Doonan Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk www.shunyadragon.com I do not know, therefore I think . . .