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Anarchist Patriot · Dec 23, 2003, 02:25 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
I read an intertersting article about Jesus, and it reaffirmed my belief about him. Some points to consider.

1. Many other pagan religions had stories very similar to Jesus, and Jesus has relationships to ancient sun Gods. The religions believe that their savior was crucified and would return etc. This suggests that Jesus is just another myth, of ancient people searching for purpose.

2. The virgin Mary was also a myth commonly held by some pagan religions.

3. Jesus in the whale represents primitive man attempting to explain light and darkness.

4. Ancient historians of the time didn't refer to Jesus in their works.

5. They symbol of Jesus on the crucifix didn't appear 'till 800 years later.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Much of the Christian religion was rooted in Zorasterism. For instance the three Magi who presented gifts to the Christ child were Zorasterian priests. Other elements included the Egyptian Osirus myth. The cult of Osirus conserned a goddess who died and was resurected. Jesus was said to have lived in Egypt for several years as a child. The Cross may have been the Ankh, used by the cult of Akhenaton, the Pharo who proclaimed a cult of one god he named Aton. It is a curious fact that Akhenaton was a pacifist, perhaps the fist Pacifist in any civilized society. It should also be noted that modern day Coptic Christians use the Ankh or Chi-Ro as their symbol.

GregC · Dec 23, 2003, 10:26 pm

Hi, this is my first post here. how are you? good. nice to meet you. :)

ok before I reply I want to say that I am a Christian. I believe that the bible is the inspired word of God. Yes you now consider me a freak. That's ok.

anyway....

1. this is just as much evidence FOR Jesus as it is AGAINST Him. this point is therefore negated.

2. same as above.

3. what??? these people obvously aren't well versed in so called "myths" I'd take what they say with a grain of err... a salt shaker.

4. Yes they did. Someone has allready responded to this point.

5. This is possiable, considering the fact that if you professed Christianity you were a dead man yeah, who's gunna make symbol that says "Hey! I'm a christian! Come kill me!!"

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
I read an intertersting article about Jesus, and it reaffirmed my belief about him. Some points to consider.

1. Many other pagan religions had stories very similar to Jesus, and Jesus has relationships to ancient sun Gods. The religions believe that their savior was crucified and would return etc. This suggests that Jesus is just another myth, of ancient people searching for purpose.

2. The virgin Mary was also a myth commonly held by some pagan religions.

3. Jesus in the whale represents primitive man attempting to explain light and darkness.

4. Ancient historians of the time didn't refer to Jesus in their works.

5. They symbol of Jesus on the crucifix didn't appear 'till 800 years later.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

CX_Infidel · Jan 23, 2004, 03:52 pm

Greetings All.

I'm one of the moderators of the Biblical Criticism & History forum at Internet Infidels. Sean invited me over here to take a look.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
I read an intertersting article about Jesus, and it reaffirmed my belief about him. Some points to consider.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

If it hasn't been asked already, could we please have a citation for this article?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
1. Many other pagan religions had stories very similar to Jesus, and Jesus has relationships to ancient sun Gods. The religions believe that their savior was crucified and would return etc. This suggests that Jesus is just another myth, of ancient people searching for purpose.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

More often than not, especially on the internet, these similarities are either far overstated or outright fabrications. If you could perhaps cite a few of these similarities the discussion could proceed. That being said, it is not surprising that various religious systems have similarities. Religion, in general, is a cultural response to the commonalities of human experience. Still there are a number of unique points with respect to the gospel stories which are interesting.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
2. The virgin Mary was also a myth commonly held by some pagan religions.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Actually virgin birth or god-men being born of the union between gods and humans is common. I don't know of any other religion that has a virgin mary. That being said, so what?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
3. Jesus in the whale represents primitive man attempting to explain light and darkness.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You're thinking of Jonah in the OT (cf. Jonah 1:17) I'm not sure how the story of Jonah being swallowed by a giant fish can be construed as a cosmological myth so I'd be interested to hear the argument for it. As for Jesus' reference to Jonah in Matthew 12:39-40 (cf. Luke 11:29-30) it's main purpose is to shore up the 3rd day resurrection dogma.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
4. Ancient historians of the time didn't refer to Jesus in their works.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This is mostly true, though there is considerable controversy. The Testamonium Flavianum is a puzzling exception. Most of the other references offered up by apologists don't hold up under scrutiny.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
5. They symbol of Jesus on the crucifix didn't appear 'till 800 years later.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This is also true. So what?

CX_Infidel · Jan 23, 2004, 04:10 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
4. Ancient historians of the time didn't refer to Jesus in their works.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Let me cite some passages from a straightforward yet accurate text (Jesus of History, Christ of Faith by Thomas Zanzig) that should make your source's author and yourself turn red in shame for that comment:<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I confess I'm not familiar with Zanzig's work (which is surprising having read more than 50 books, periodicals and papers related to biblical studies in addition to moderating the BC&H forum) though I note his publisher is St. Mary's Press. Even so his work should stand on its own merit.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,)
"Josephus, a Jewish historian, mentioned Jesus in his writings toward the end of the first century C.E., roughly sixty years after Jesus' death...Josephus identifies Jesus as a 'a wise man...a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure,' and he notes that Jesus was later condemned by Pilate to crucifixion."

In the above passage, note Jewish is a separate entity from Christian.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

First off, as I mentioned in a different post the TF referred to by Zanzig above is still highly controversial. That being said the majority of scholars I've read and corresponded with consider it to be at least partially and possibly entirely an interpolation. There are numerous analyses of the TF available in print and on the web if one is so inclined. Incidentally, it is an anachronism to distinguish between Xians and Jews at the time Josephus was writing. In that period Xianity was simply an eccentric sect of Judaism.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,)
"The Roman historian Tacitus referred to Jesus in his account of a fire that burned Rome in the year 64 C.E., for which the emperor Nero supposedly blamed the Christians."<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

The reference in Tacitus appears to be second hand knowledge. Even so the reference is so short it gives us no information about the Historical Jesus

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,)
"[Pliny the Younger] wrote to the emperor Trajan for advice on what to do about the Christians The Roman officials were always concerned about the growth of any political or religious sect, and the Christian communities baffled them. Although Pliny's letter mentions Jesus, it offers no new information about him."<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

If I'm not mistaken (I don't have a reference handy), Pliny talks about Xians, but does not talk about Jesus per se. We know Xians existed in the early centuries of the Common Era.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,)
"In a discussion of the emperor Claudius, Seutonius says that Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome because of the riots they were constantly causing, 'on the instigation of Chrestus.' Though there is some debate over the word Chrestus, scholars generall agree it refers to Christ."<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

They do nothing of the sort. Xian apologists agree it refers to Christ. Scholars are more inclined to think it doesn't since Chrestus is a proper Latin name.

CX_Infidel · Jan 23, 2004, 04:29 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (cheesemage,)
Really though many parts of Christanity was changed during the council of Tripoli(I think this is the name of it), when the Romans adapted Christanity, many things about the religion were changed, Christmas for example is just a renaming of a holiday the Romans had already celebrating Apolo making the transition easier for Romans, thus that is why Christmas is not on Jesus brith (sometime in Spring I think, it is mentioned in the bible somewhere).<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Xianity was adopted as the religion of the empire when Constantine converted at the beginning of the 4th century (around 312 C.E. or so) long before the Council of Tripoli. You may be thinking of the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. which was convened by Constantine to establish official church doctrine with respect to the Arian heresy. The only things that were established there were Jesus' divinity and his consubstantial relationship to God the Father. These were not new doctrines at the time. Rather the Council of Nicaea represents the first victory of the proto-orthodox faction of Xianity in setting official church doctrine.

Vis-a-vis "Christmas" it is not a renaming of anything. It is the name given to the official observance of Jesus' birth called "Christ's Mass". The early Xians did not uniformally celebrate the birth of Jesus since it is unknown when he was born. Some groups celebrated Jesus' birth concurrently with his baptism by John the Baptizer in the early spring, others celebrated it at different times and some didn't celebrate it at all. When Christmas was finally established as an official church Holy Day there was considerable debate as to when it should be held since there was no preexisting tradition as to the actual date of Jesus' birth (there is no reference in the gospels contrary to your assertion above). It was decided that for the sake of expediency and in an attempt to encourage converts Christ's Mass should celebrated around the same time as other Roman holidays including Saturnalia (Dec 17 - 23 was a harvest festival in honor of Saturn the god of agriculture), The births of Mithras and Sol Invicti were celebrated around the Winter Solstice (Dec 21). December 25th was chosen as the date for Christ's Mass (replacing January 5th) in the 5th century.

CX_Infidel · Jan 23, 2004, 04:36 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Down,)
In refernece to the similarities between Christianity and paganism, the main symbol for christmas is a tree, which strikes me as very pagan. Also, christmas is very close to the Winter Solstice (i think thats what it's called.) Correct me if I am wrong, it just strikes me as odd.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

That's because the Christmas Tree is a pagan symbol. It is not in any way connected to the religious celebration of Jesus' birth. It got integrated into the whole Christmas tradition from Germanic practices when the early Saxons were converted and practiced a syncretistic blend of Xianity and their traditional pagan religion

travxnj · Jan 23, 2004, 08:26 pm

....Just a note on this Jesus stuff:
Isn't it quite a coincidence that numerous pagan religions had very similar god-man stories....It's also very interesting that there's not a great deal of historical evidence that Jesus ever existed....Considering he was Godlike and all I would think there would be library's filled with documentation...I've read that Josephus's entries about Jesus are considered forgeries......I think the local tribe of Jews were heavily influenced by the pagan religion at the time and combined that with the Jewish messianic theme to create the Jesus myth. Anyway, how could anyone with half a brain think someone walked on water and came back to life after being killed....among other things? It's childish brainwash and it's sad to see so many people clinging to these things out of ignorance and fear. Religious professionals have done a good job of convincing people that they need religion in their lives......

meowmeow · Jan 23, 2004, 09:37 pm

The truth about Jesus is that a group of men, even then, discovered how lucrative preaching about God can be. When the two competing sides disagreed on the direction of the "church", Jesus was given up by the winning side.

shunyadragon · Jan 24, 2004, 11:18 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
4. Ancient historians of the time didn't refer to Jesus in their works.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Let me cite some passages from a straightforward yet accurate text (Jesus of History, Christ of Faith by Thomas Zanzig) that should make your source's author and yourself turn red in shame for that comment:

"Josephus, a Jewish historian, mentioned Jesus in his writings toward the end of the first century C.E., roughly sixty years after Jesus' death...Josephus identifies Jesus as a 'a wise man...a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure,' and he notes that Jesus was later condemned by Pilate to crucifixion."

In the above passage, note Jewish is a separate entity from Christian.

"The Roman historian Tacitus referred to Jesus in his account of a fire that burned Rome in the year 64 C.E., for which the emperor Nero supposedly blamed the Christians."

"[Pliny the Younger] wrote to the emperor Trajan for advice on what to do about the Christians The Roman officials were always concerned about the growth of any political or religious sect, and the Christian communities baffled them. Although Pliny's letter mentions Jesus, it offers no new information about him."

"In a discussion of the emperor Claudius, Seutonius says that Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome because of the riots they were constantly causing, 'on the instigation of Chrestus.' Though there is some debate over the word Chrestus, scholars generall agree it refers to Christ."

A charlatan on God's true will, perhaps - but a figment of the ancients' imaginations, certainly not.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

All these references were made well after Christ's death. The point is a good on there are no records made concerning Jesus during his life tim in the government records or by historians.

orgaelin · Jan 25, 2004, 02:44 am

I believe I know the article to which you make reference. You can find it online at http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

It is lengthy, but well worth the read.

We're all rather passionate about Jesus here, huh?

Quote: "This suggests that Jesus is just another myth, of ancient people searching for purpose."

I don't think that is true. I certainly believe what the article outlines, but Jesus and his story are not entirely mythical. Rather, there was a real historical character known as Jesus, but to him were attributed a great number of pre-existing myths to make him all the more appealing to now potential converts.

I reccommend Barabara Thiering or Laurence Gardner for a full understanding of the life of Jesus. In essence, they suggest they he was the legitimate descendent of the Davidic kingly line, and was the rightful king (except that the kingship was abolished when the Romans took Jerusalem).

The virgin birth story was an excuse for Jesus' untimely birth. In Jewish law you were not allowed to divorce, but if you were king you had to have offspring to continue the line, so they made marriage a two-part process. The first marriage you could cancel out if the new wife proved to be infertile.

Because of their extreme views about sex, they could only do it during a 2-3 month period in the year. Jesus and Mary were dirty little beggars and did it at the wrong time, thus making Jesus illegitimate - a bastard effectively.

So they instead pretended the pregnancy was divine.

2. The virgin Mary was also a myth commonly held by some pagan religions.

Again there was a partial truth behind this mythical add-on. Mary was denoted in the bible (in Hebrew) as an "almah", which in modern bibles is translated as "virgin" but if you have a concordance you can see for yourself it merely means "young woman", which denoted a woman who had not yet had her second marriage. Even in the latin versions of the NT the word for mary is "virgo", but it does *not* mean virgin unless it is followed by "intactica". She was not a virgin - on the contrary - she just couldn't keep her knickers on!

3. Jesus in the whale represents primitive man attempting to explain light and darkness.

I think enough people have pointed out you're a little confused on this one!

4. Ancient historians of the time didn't refer to Jesus in their works.

Same here- I have nothing to add.

5. They symbol of Jesus on the crucifix didn't appear 'till 800 years later

That was largely because it was seen as very very bad to depict images of your Gods. For years they symbolised him only with the cross, then they slowly built up confidence untill they felt they could portray him in perfect condition on the cross (i.e. not suffering) and only relatively lately did they dare to portray him in a state of suffering upon the cross.

Basically Jesus was a historical character. He and his men were responsible for starting a new religious movement which they intended to replace mainstream Judaism. The crucifixion happened as *planned* in order to make Jesus look like the son of God. Jesus survived the crucifixion, and his movement would have continued and created a very different world than we know now, if it hadn't been for the psychosis of one man - Saul/Paul, who took the message of Jesus and distorted it.

I would also like to point out that Constantine never converted to Christianity. He was a member of the Sol Invictus cult, and remained one throughout his life.

Paul · Jan 25, 2004, 07:34 pm

JESUS' PROMISE of the King to come, and who shall inherit the kingdom to come. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven"

JESUS said, "ALL POWER is given unto ME in heaven and earth" (Matthew 28:18).--- "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in on wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."(Matthew 5:18) --- "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but MY WORDS shall not pass away." This is The Word of God.

JESUS introduced himself to John with his new name saying, "I am ALPHA AND OMEGA, the beginning and the ending" , saith the Lord, which is and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY." ( Rev. 1:8 ). In the Revelation of John, JESUS with the name ALPHA AND OMEGA, which is JESUS' new name, spoke and revealed to John about the King to come ( Rev.19:12-16 ), who is Him that overcometh ( Rev. 2:26-27 ), the man child ( Rev. 12:5 ), the Lamb ( Rev. 17:14 ).

Before JESUS went to the FATHER, JESUS was 'The Christ' on earth, and because JESUS overcame, and went to the FATHER, JESUS has been granted the name ALPHA and OMEGA, which is his new name, and also, HE has been granted the POSITION, and AUTHORITY of THE ALMIGHTY, by his FATHER. Since JESUS was granted the name ALPHA and OMEGA, which is his new name, HE was and is no longer 'The Christ', but is THE ALMIGHTY. --- ( 'The Christ' ---> the anointed one, the Greek name for Messiah; primarily the name of an office, such as the Son of Man , the Saviour, the Comforter, the Lamb, and etc.)

Before JESUS went to the FATHER, HE said, " I will pray the FATHER, and He shall give you 'another comforter', that He may abide with you forever;" ( John 14:16 ), --- "because I go to my FATHER, and ye SEE ME NO MORE". ( John 16:7-11 ), --- "Ye shall NOT SEE ME henceforth, till ye shall say, "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the LORD."(Matt.23:39).

orgaelin · Jan 26, 2004, 02:36 am

Um, can anyone say Fundy Fruitcake?!

Impenitent · Jan 26, 2004, 11:58 am

"I am the sword"

travxnj · Jan 26, 2004, 02:23 pm

Anyone ever hear of or read The Boomer Bible? It's a very funny spoof on the bible...filled with pages of ridiculous nonsensical sayings.. Brilliant in it's own way....Check it out if you get a chance...

orgaelin · Jan 26, 2004, 03:37 pm

My brother has a copy - and I agree, it's an excellent, hilarious book. :)

PeterAngelo · Jan 26, 2004, 08:52 pm

The fear of death, sickness, accidents, and old age drives us all insane.

That fear has been used as a tool for control and income by medicine men, and priests forever. It is how really smart people control - or do the best they can - dumb people.

I. Q. tests acknowledge that humans ability to process information and make use of it varies from retarded to genius.

That is where the rub lies.

The top two percent of the human race has no need for an afterlife when they live in heaven on earth at the expense of so meny dumb talking animals.

Like it or not they will never voluntarily be "nice" and share.

It is impossible to have a perfert world anyway. Not enough room or resources.

We have already let medical science overload the current models of control. We are not able to stay ahead of the curve.

The Internet is making it even tougher to maintain the lies.

Like the Wizard of OZ - the jig is up.

We(not me) are still talking about a historical figure that may or may not have lived, and taking this nonesense seriously.

The only tangible proof of the role he (or his myth) has played in history is the Vatican Bank, still located in Rome.

If St. Peter was his main man he set the bank up in the heart of the Roman Empire after he sold out his boss.

That is reality.

Whether Jesus lived or not is moot. What is important is that we get past the snake oil mentality and deal with reality.

We have an organized crime-gang government that works hand in hand with churches to maintain control over a population of bewildered wage slaves.

When the discussion goes to getting rid of these pigs by calling them what they are - criminals - instead of going along with a system that is deliberately killing us, we can move on.

Believing in an imaginary god is just plain stupidity and it also explains why the "Greateat Story Ever Sold" is still raking in the bucks and controlling the "message".

Respecting a war criminal because he is "President" is just as stupid.
He is a murdering pig overseeing the destruction of our lives. We shoud be calling for his head.

It is hard to be smart in a world full of mentally challenged - but "maybe" good hearted - people who run from the truth and into the arms of the inquisitor.

Sad.

Watch the Vincent Price film, "Conqueror Worm."

It is about the Inquisition - he is an Inquisitor.

It is the scariest film he ever made and it shows the true nature of the god fraud.

meowmeow · Jan 28, 2004, 09:14 am

Jesus never said anything other than what those who wrote the history attribute to him; and those that wrote the history were in my opinion corrupt. The "church" had become a business, and it seems that whatever was necessary to make it a success was the order of the day.

FC Mellon · Jan 28, 2004, 09:25 am

..if too much Light makes one blind...don't blame the Light...if one is so bothered...quit staring and continue your pursuits in the Dark . But remember..if you find yourself lost and confused...'flick your Bic'...provided you believe in carrying one for those moments you need to 'toke yourself UP'
..p.s. for those who might interpret the wrong definition..'toke' also means 'pull'...I wouldn't want anyone/someone thinking I am just 'blowing smoke' up their rear-ends. ;?@~~~

PeterAngelo · Jan 28, 2004, 11:51 am

No offense taken - I do toke up in the right meaning of the word.

As a matter of fact - good idea - see ya later!!!

chicagoastronomer · Feb 10, 2004, 05:16 am

There is not ONE tangible piece of hard evidence to support the Jesus/God connection. Nor even any "Holy" objects of Jesus stored away somewhere. Not a hem of cloth, a utensil, a shoe or even any of his own writings.

And who was there scribing down all of his thoughts and sayings? His days in the wilderness, his discussions at the last supper or his unsupported rantings as the son of God went un-recorded. Most people were illiterate and ignorant at the time and unable to write and/or read about his activities....if at all ever occured.

I have my mind open to any rational explanations, but what people believe in is both quite amazing...and scary. Blind faith has enslaved, killed and crushed more than it has saved.

FreeThinker Joe

Dec 23, 2003, 02:25 am	#21 (permalink) (top)
Anarchist Patriot Molten Ash Posts: 143	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) I read an intertersting article about Jesus, and it reaffirmed my belief about him. Some points to consider. 1. Many other pagan religions had stories very similar to Jesus, and Jesus has relationships to ancient sun Gods. The religions believe that their savior was crucified and would return etc. This suggests that Jesus is just another myth, of ancient people searching for purpose. 2. The virgin Mary was also a myth commonly held by some pagan religions. 3. Jesus in the whale represents primitive man attempting to explain light and darkness. 4. Ancient historians of the time didn't refer to Jesus in their works. 5. They symbol of Jesus on the crucifix didn't appear 'till 800 years later.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Much of the Christian religion was rooted in Zorasterism. For instance the three Magi who presented gifts to the Christ child were Zorasterian priests. Other elements included the Egyptian Osirus myth. The cult of Osirus conserned a goddess who died and was resurected. Jesus was said to have lived in Egypt for several years as a child. The Cross may have been the Ankh, used by the cult of Akhenaton, the Pharo who proclaimed a cult of one god he named Aton. It is a curious fact that Akhenaton was a pacifist, perhaps the fist Pacifist in any civilized society. It should also be noted that modern day Coptic Christians use the Ankh or Chi-Ro as their symbol.

Dec 23, 2003, 10:26 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
GregC Sedimentary Rock Posts: 2	Hi, this is my first post here. how are you? good. nice to meet you. :) ok before I reply I want to say that I am a Christian. I believe that the bible is the inspired word of God. Yes you now consider me a freak. That's ok. anyway.... 1. this is just as much evidence FOR Jesus as it is AGAINST Him. this point is therefore negated. 2. same as above. 3. what??? these people obvously aren't well versed in so called "myths" I'd take what they say with a grain of err... a salt shaker. 4. Yes they did. Someone has allready responded to this point. 5. This is possiable, considering the fact that if you professed Christianity you were a dead man yeah, who's gunna make symbol that says "Hey! I'm a christian! Come kill me!!" </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) I read an intertersting article about Jesus, and it reaffirmed my belief about him. Some points to consider. 1. Many other pagan religions had stories very similar to Jesus, and Jesus has relationships to ancient sun Gods. The religions believe that their savior was crucified and would return etc. This suggests that Jesus is just another myth, of ancient people searching for purpose. 2. The virgin Mary was also a myth commonly held by some pagan religions. 3. Jesus in the whale represents primitive man attempting to explain light and darkness. 4. Ancient historians of the time didn't refer to Jesus in their works. 5. They symbol of Jesus on the crucifix didn't appear 'till 800 years later.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Jan 23, 2004, 03:52 pm	#23 (permalink) (top)
CX_Infidel Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	Greetings All. I'm one of the moderators of the Biblical Criticism & History forum at Internet Infidels. Sean invited me over here to take a look. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) I read an intertersting article about Jesus, and it reaffirmed my belief about him. Some points to consider.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> If it hasn't been asked already, could we please have a citation for this article? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) 1. Many other pagan religions had stories very similar to Jesus, and Jesus has relationships to ancient sun Gods. The religions believe that their savior was crucified and would return etc. This suggests that Jesus is just another myth, of ancient people searching for purpose.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> More often than not, especially on the internet, these similarities are either far overstated or outright fabrications. If you could perhaps cite a few of these similarities the discussion could proceed. That being said, it is not surprising that various religious systems have similarities. Religion, in general, is a cultural response to the commonalities of human experience. Still there are a number of unique points with respect to the gospel stories which are interesting. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) 2. The virgin Mary was also a myth commonly held by some pagan religions.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually virgin birth or god-men being born of the union between gods and humans is common. I don't know of any other religion that has a virgin mary. That being said, so what? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) 3. Jesus in the whale represents primitive man attempting to explain light and darkness.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You're thinking of Jonah in the OT (cf. Jonah 1:17) I'm not sure how the story of Jonah being swallowed by a giant fish can be construed as a cosmological myth so I'd be interested to hear the argument for it. As for Jesus' reference to Jonah in Matthew 12:39-40 (cf. Luke 11:29-30) it's main purpose is to shore up the 3rd day resurrection dogma. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) 4. Ancient historians of the time didn't refer to Jesus in their works.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This is mostly true, though there is considerable controversy. The Testamonium Flavianum is a puzzling exception. Most of the other references offered up by apologists don't hold up under scrutiny. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) 5. They symbol of Jesus on the crucifix didn't appear 'till 800 years later.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This is also true. So what?

Jan 23, 2004, 04:10 pm	#24 (permalink) (top)
CX_Infidel Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) 4. Ancient historians of the time didn't refer to Jesus in their works.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Let me cite some passages from a straightforward yet accurate text (Jesus of History, Christ of Faith by Thomas Zanzig) that should make your source's author and yourself turn red in shame for that comment:<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I confess I'm not familiar with Zanzig's work (which is surprising having read more than 50 books, periodicals and papers related to biblical studies in addition to moderating the BC&H forum) though I note his publisher is St. Mary's Press. Even so his work should stand on its own merit. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,) "Josephus, a Jewish historian, mentioned Jesus in his writings toward the end of the first century C.E., roughly sixty years after Jesus' death...Josephus identifies Jesus as a 'a wise man...a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure,' and he notes that Jesus was later condemned by Pilate to crucifixion." In the above passage, note Jewish is a separate entity from Christian.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> First off, as I mentioned in a different post the TF referred to by Zanzig above is still highly controversial. That being said the majority of scholars I've read and corresponded with consider it to be at least partially and possibly entirely an interpolation. There are numerous analyses of the TF available in print and on the web if one is so inclined. Incidentally, it is an anachronism to distinguish between Xians and Jews at the time Josephus was writing. In that period Xianity was simply an eccentric sect of Judaism. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,) "The Roman historian Tacitus referred to Jesus in his account of a fire that burned Rome in the year 64 C.E., for which the emperor Nero supposedly blamed the Christians."<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The reference in Tacitus appears to be second hand knowledge. Even so the reference is so short it gives us no information about the Historical Jesus </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,) "[Pliny the Younger] wrote to the emperor Trajan for advice on what to do about the Christians The Roman officials were always concerned about the growth of any political or religious sect, and the Christian communities baffled them. Although Pliny's letter mentions Jesus, it offers no new information about him."<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> If I'm not mistaken (I don't have a reference handy), Pliny talks about Xians, but does not talk about Jesus per se. We know Xians existed in the early centuries of the Common Era. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,) "In a discussion of the emperor Claudius, Seutonius says that Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome because of the riots they were constantly causing, 'on the instigation of Chrestus.' Though there is some debate over the word Chrestus, scholars generall agree it refers to Christ."<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> They do nothing of the sort. Xian apologists agree it refers to Christ. Scholars are more inclined to think it doesn't since Chrestus is a proper Latin name.

Jan 23, 2004, 04:29 pm	#25 (permalink) (top)
CX_Infidel Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (cheesemage,) Really though many parts of Christanity was changed during the council of Tripoli(I think this is the name of it), when the Romans adapted Christanity, many things about the religion were changed, Christmas for example is just a renaming of a holiday the Romans had already celebrating Apolo making the transition easier for Romans, thus that is why Christmas is not on Jesus brith (sometime in Spring I think, it is mentioned in the bible somewhere).<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Xianity was adopted as the religion of the empire when Constantine converted at the beginning of the 4th century (around 312 C.E. or so) long before the Council of Tripoli. You may be thinking of the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. which was convened by Constantine to establish official church doctrine with respect to the Arian heresy. The only things that were established there were Jesus' divinity and his consubstantial relationship to God the Father. These were not new doctrines at the time. Rather the Council of Nicaea represents the first victory of the proto-orthodox faction of Xianity in setting official church doctrine. Vis-a-vis "Christmas" it is not a renaming of anything. It is the name given to the official observance of Jesus' birth called "Christ's Mass". The early Xians did not uniformally celebrate the birth of Jesus since it is unknown when he was born. Some groups celebrated Jesus' birth concurrently with his baptism by John the Baptizer in the early spring, others celebrated it at different times and some didn't celebrate it at all. When Christmas was finally established as an official church Holy Day there was considerable debate as to when it should be held since there was no preexisting tradition as to the actual date of Jesus' birth (there is no reference in the gospels contrary to your assertion above). It was decided that for the sake of expediency and in an attempt to encourage converts Christ's Mass should celebrated around the same time as other Roman holidays including Saturnalia (Dec 17 - 23 was a harvest festival in honor of Saturn the god of agriculture), The births of Mithras and Sol Invicti were celebrated around the Winter Solstice (Dec 21). December 25th was chosen as the date for Christ's Mass (replacing January 5th) in the 5th century.

Jan 23, 2004, 04:36 pm	#26 (permalink) (top)
CX_Infidel Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Down,) In refernece to the similarities between Christianity and paganism, the main symbol for christmas is a tree, which strikes me as very pagan. Also, christmas is very close to the Winter Solstice (i think thats what it's called.) Correct me if I am wrong, it just strikes me as odd.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> That's because the Christmas Tree is a pagan symbol. It is not in any way connected to the religious celebration of Jesus' birth. It got integrated into the whole Christmas tradition from Germanic practices when the early Saxons were converted and practiced a syncretistic blend of Xianity and their traditional pagan religion

Jan 23, 2004, 08:26 pm	#27 (permalink) (top)
travxnj Sedimentary Rock Posts: 2	....Just a note on this Jesus stuff: Isn't it quite a coincidence that numerous pagan religions had very similar god-man stories....It's also very interesting that there's not a great deal of historical evidence that Jesus ever existed....Considering he was Godlike and all I would think there would be library's filled with documentation...I've read that Josephus's entries about Jesus are considered forgeries......I think the local tribe of Jews were heavily influenced by the pagan religion at the time and combined that with the Jewish messianic theme to create the Jesus myth. Anyway, how could anyone with half a brain think someone walked on water and came back to life after being killed....among other things? It's childish brainwash and it's sad to see so many people clinging to these things out of ignorance and fear. Religious professionals have done a good job of convincing people that they need religion in their lives......

Jan 23, 2004, 09:37 pm	#28 (permalink) (top)
meowmeow Sedimentary Rock Posts: 13	The truth about Jesus is that a group of men, even then, discovered how lucrative preaching about God can be. When the two competing sides disagreed on the direction of the "church", Jesus was given up by the winning side.

Jan 24, 2004, 11:18 pm	#29 (permalink) (top)
shunyadragon Hot Lava Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 940	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Sodfather,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) 4. Ancient historians of the time didn't refer to Jesus in their works.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Let me cite some passages from a straightforward yet accurate text (Jesus of History, Christ of Faith by Thomas Zanzig) that should make your source's author and yourself turn red in shame for that comment: "Josephus, a Jewish historian, mentioned Jesus in his writings toward the end of the first century C.E., roughly sixty years after Jesus' death...Josephus identifies Jesus as a 'a wise man...a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure,' and he notes that Jesus was later condemned by Pilate to crucifixion." In the above passage, note Jewish is a separate entity from Christian. "The Roman historian Tacitus referred to Jesus in his account of a fire that burned Rome in the year 64 C.E., for which the emperor Nero supposedly blamed the Christians." "[Pliny the Younger] wrote to the emperor Trajan for advice on what to do about the Christians The Roman officials were always concerned about the growth of any political or religious sect, and the Christian communities baffled them. Although Pliny's letter mentions Jesus, it offers no new information about him." "In a discussion of the emperor Claudius, Seutonius says that Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome because of the riots they were constantly causing, 'on the instigation of Chrestus.' Though there is some debate over the word Chrestus, scholars generall agree it refers to Christ." A charlatan on God's true will, perhaps - but a figment of the ancients' imaginations, certainly not.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> All these references were made well after Christ's death. The point is a good on there are no records made concerning Jesus during his life tim in the government records or by historians. The empty cup contains the most Frank A Doonan Turn weapons into peace and friendship with gifts of jade-silk www.shunyadragon.com I do not know, therefore I think . . .

Jan 25, 2004, 02:44 am	#30 (permalink) (top)
orgaelin Igneous Magma Location: Midlands UK Posts: 704	I believe I know the article to which you make reference. You can find it online at http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm It is lengthy, but well worth the read. We're all rather passionate about Jesus here, huh? Quote: "This suggests that Jesus is just another myth, of ancient people searching for purpose." I don't think that is true. I certainly believe what the article outlines, but Jesus and his story are not entirely mythical. Rather, there was a real historical character known as Jesus, but to him were attributed a great number of pre-existing myths to make him all the more appealing to now potential converts. I reccommend Barabara Thiering or Laurence Gardner for a full understanding of the life of Jesus. In essence, they suggest they he was the legitimate descendent of the Davidic kingly line, and was the rightful king (except that the kingship was abolished when the Romans took Jerusalem). The virgin birth story was an excuse for Jesus' untimely birth. In Jewish law you were not allowed to divorce, but if you were king you had to have offspring to continue the line, so they made marriage a two-part process. The first marriage you could cancel out if the new wife proved to be infertile. Because of their extreme views about sex, they could only do it during a 2-3 month period in the year. Jesus and Mary were dirty little beggars and did it at the wrong time, thus making Jesus illegitimate - a bastard effectively. So they instead pretended the pregnancy was divine. 2. The virgin Mary was also a myth commonly held by some pagan religions. Again there was a partial truth behind this mythical add-on. Mary was denoted in the bible (in Hebrew) as an "almah", which in modern bibles is translated as "virgin" but if you have a concordance you can see for yourself it merely means "young woman", which denoted a woman who had not yet had her second marriage. Even in the latin versions of the NT the word for mary is "virgo", but it does not mean virgin unless it is followed by "intactica". She was not a virgin - on the contrary - she just couldn't keep her knickers on! 3. Jesus in the whale represents primitive man attempting to explain light and darkness. I think enough people have pointed out you're a little confused on this one! 4. Ancient historians of the time didn't refer to Jesus in their works. Same here- I have nothing to add. 5. They symbol of Jesus on the crucifix didn't appear 'till 800 years later That was largely because it was seen as very very bad to depict images of your Gods. For years they symbolised him only with the cross, then they slowly built up confidence untill they felt they could portray him in perfect condition on the cross (i.e. not suffering) and only relatively lately did they dare to portray him in a state of suffering upon the cross. Basically Jesus was a historical character. He and his men were responsible for starting a new religious movement which they intended to replace mainstream Judaism. The crucifixion happened as planned in order to make Jesus look like the son of God. Jesus survived the crucifixion, and his movement would have continued and created a very different world than we know now, if it hadn't been for the psychosis of one man - Saul/Paul, who took the message of Jesus and distorted it. I would also like to point out that Constantine never converted to Christianity. He was a member of the Sol Invictus cult, and remained one throughout his life. "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

Jan 25, 2004, 07:34 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
Paul Bacon Sizzle Posts: 287	JESUS' PROMISE of the King to come, and who shall inherit the kingdom to come. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven" JESUS said, "ALL POWER is given unto ME in heaven and earth" (Matthew 28:18).--- "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in on wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."(Matthew 5:18) --- "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but MY WORDS shall not pass away." This is The Word of God. JESUS introduced himself to John with his new name saying, "I am ALPHA AND OMEGA, the beginning and the ending" , saith the Lord, which is and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY." ( Rev. 1:8 ). In the Revelation of John, JESUS with the name ALPHA AND OMEGA, which is JESUS' new name, spoke and revealed to John about the King to come ( Rev.19:12-16 ), who is Him that overcometh ( Rev. 2:26-27 ), the man child ( Rev. 12:5 ), the Lamb ( Rev. 17:14 ). Before JESUS went to the FATHER, JESUS was 'The Christ' on earth, and because JESUS overcame, and went to the FATHER, JESUS has been granted the name ALPHA and OMEGA, which is his new name, and also, HE has been granted the POSITION, and AUTHORITY of THE ALMIGHTY, by his FATHER. Since JESUS was granted the name ALPHA and OMEGA, which is his new name, HE was and is no longer 'The Christ', but is THE ALMIGHTY. --- ( 'The Christ' ---> the anointed one, the Greek name for Messiah; primarily the name of an office, such as the Son of Man , the Saviour, the Comforter, the Lamb, and etc.) Before JESUS went to the FATHER, HE said, " I will pray the FATHER, and He shall give you 'another comforter', that He may abide with you forever;" ( John 14:16 ), --- "because I go to my FATHER, and ye SEE ME NO MORE". ( John 16:7-11 ), --- "Ye shall NOT SEE ME henceforth, till ye shall say, "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the LORD."(Matt.23:39).

Jan 26, 2004, 02:36 am	#32 (permalink) (top)
orgaelin Igneous Magma Location: Midlands UK Posts: 704	Um, can anyone say Fundy Fruitcake?! "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

Jan 26, 2004, 11:58 am	#33 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	"I am the sword" "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Jan 26, 2004, 02:23 pm	#34 (permalink) (top)
travxnj Sedimentary Rock Posts: 2	Anyone ever hear of or read The Boomer Bible? It's a very funny spoof on the bible...filled with pages of ridiculous nonsensical sayings.. Brilliant in it's own way....Check it out if you get a chance...

Jan 26, 2004, 03:37 pm	#35 (permalink) (top)
orgaelin Igneous Magma Location: Midlands UK Posts: 704	My brother has a copy - and I agree, it's an excellent, hilarious book. :) "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

Jan 26, 2004, 08:52 pm	#36 (permalink) (top)
PeterAngelo Igneous Magma Posts: 169	The fear of death, sickness, accidents, and old age drives us all insane. That fear has been used as a tool for control and income by medicine men, and priests forever. It is how really smart people control - or do the best they can - dumb people. I. Q. tests acknowledge that humans ability to process information and make use of it varies from retarded to genius. That is where the rub lies. The top two percent of the human race has no need for an afterlife when they live in heaven on earth at the expense of so meny dumb talking animals. Like it or not they will never voluntarily be "nice" and share. It is impossible to have a perfert world anyway. Not enough room or resources. We have already let medical science overload the current models of control. We are not able to stay ahead of the curve. The Internet is making it even tougher to maintain the lies. Like the Wizard of OZ - the jig is up. We(not me) are still talking about a historical figure that may or may not have lived, and taking this nonesense seriously. The only tangible proof of the role he (or his myth) has played in history is the Vatican Bank, still located in Rome. If St. Peter was his main man he set the bank up in the heart of the Roman Empire after he sold out his boss. That is reality. Whether Jesus lived or not is moot. What is important is that we get past the snake oil mentality and deal with reality. We have an organized crime-gang government that works hand in hand with churches to maintain control over a population of bewildered wage slaves. When the discussion goes to getting rid of these pigs by calling them what they are - criminals - instead of going along with a system that is deliberately killing us, we can move on. Believing in an imaginary god is just plain stupidity and it also explains why the "Greateat Story Ever Sold" is still raking in the bucks and controlling the "message". Respecting a war criminal because he is "President" is just as stupid. He is a murdering pig overseeing the destruction of our lives. We shoud be calling for his head. It is hard to be smart in a world full of mentally challenged - but "maybe" good hearted - people who run from the truth and into the arms of the inquisitor. Sad. Watch the Vincent Price film, "Conqueror Worm." It is about the Inquisition - he is an Inquisitor. It is the scariest film he ever made and it shows the true nature of the god fraud.

Jan 28, 2004, 09:14 am	#37 (permalink) (top)
meowmeow Sedimentary Rock Posts: 13	Jesus never said anything other than what those who wrote the history attribute to him; and those that wrote the history were in my opinion corrupt. The "church" had become a business, and it seems that whatever was necessary to make it a success was the order of the day.

Jan 28, 2004, 09:25 am	#38 (permalink) (top)
FC Mellon Molten Ash Location: So Cal Posts: 51	..if too much Light makes one blind...don't blame the Light...if one is so bothered...quit staring and continue your pursuits in the Dark . But remember..if you find yourself lost and confused...'flick your Bic'...provided you believe in carrying one for those moments you need to 'toke yourself UP' ..p.s. for those who might interpret the wrong definition..'toke' also means 'pull'...I wouldn't want anyone/someone thinking I am just 'blowing smoke' up their rear-ends. ;?@~~~

Jan 28, 2004, 11:51 am	#39 (permalink) (top)
PeterAngelo Igneous Magma Posts: 169	No offense taken - I do toke up in the right meaning of the word. As a matter of fact - good idea - see ya later!!!

Feb 10, 2004, 05:16 am	#40 (permalink) (top)
chicagoastronomer Sedimentary Rock Posts: 22	There is not ONE tangible piece of hard evidence to support the Jesus/God connection. Nor even any "Holy" objects of Jesus stored away somewhere. Not a hem of cloth, a utensil, a shoe or even any of his own writings. And who was there scribing down all of his thoughts and sayings? His days in the wilderness, his discussions at the last supper or his unsupported rantings as the son of God went un-recorded. Most people were illiterate and ignorant at the time and unable to write and/or read about his activities....if at all ever occured. I have my mind open to any rational explanations, but what people believe in is both quite amazing...and scary. Blind faith has enslaved, killed and crushed more than it has saved. FreeThinker Joe <span style='color:blue'>"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars"...</span> Oscar Wilde 1854-1900