What is Free Will?

[Technosoul]

Is free will really the abilty or the power to do as you please, or is free will an illusion and are our choices pre-determined by past experience and the flexable conditions around us that might impact what choice we select?

Any other (other then Webster parroting) ideas about what free will is, or pretends to be?

Answer this question because you want too, not because you must.

Technosoul.

[m5lange1]

But if I have no free will I did answer this question because I must.

[Samildanach]

I go with number two, we have the illusion of choice but we are always going to go with our core programming and what we think we are doing of our own free will is actually the result of the configuration of atoms at the start of the universe just playing itself out to its conclusion.
Or in other words you will be presented with infinite choices for every situation however you will only pick the one your programming allows youto - ie the one that makes sense to you at the time.

[Agog]

Do we have free will to die?
Death, as an ultimate action or reaction for humans is tantamount to all other activities and choices made in life. Death, as an amalgamation of all activity in life is not freely chosen. Therefore, a broad perspective may lead one to conclude that free will is an illusion comprised of infinite options leading toward an unavoidable occurance.
Do we have free will in life? The answer depends upon your chosen perpective. However, in light of the unavoidable demand, the point is a non-sequitor; like a fruit fly trying to free itself from a jar of honey, he may go "hither and tither" yet he will die in that jar in any position he freely chooses.
-AGog

[LDS]

Do we have free will in life? The answer depends upon your chosen perpective.

Didnt you just answer your own question?

[LDS]

Is free will really the abilty or the power to do as you please, or is free will an illusion and are our choices pre-determined by past experience and the flexable conditions around us that might impact what choice we select?

Though past experience and other conditions may influence my decisions, I still make them. Free will is ours, otherwise there would be no spontaneity. Also there are cases where people do crazy and odd things on a whim, without previous experience or conditions which would dictate such actions.

[Samildanach]

Actually there is also the illusion of spontanieity which for all intents and purposes is as good as the real thing. The same way that because we do not know what choice we are going to make next it is practically the same (for us) as having free will even though we dont.

[orgaelin]

free will is actually the result of the configuration of atoms at the start of the universe just playing itself out to its conclusion

I think there is a little more to the universe than just atoms. Certainly I agree that if there weren't then it would go on and on, rolling around just like the balls on a billiard table...

But the beauty of free will is that we are not just balls on a billiard table. They have to go wherever they have been directed, we can choose not to. For example, say I'm rolling along and I suddenly remember that the last time I went this way I fell down a hole. I can then just stop, or change direction, because I have a memory, and the ability to use intelligence and judge the best next step to ensure my survival.

Now you could of course look at it on a different level. You could say that my decisions are merely the result of certain causes, and not spontaneous. You could say that I had thought B as a direct result of thought A, which having occured because of something yet prior to that, and so on...

And this is where the real guts of the question lie. You easily view either as true. It could be that we use free will, or that a 'cause' can be traced back right to the very first moment of existence.

Ironically, it is up to you and your free will to decide whether free will exists. If you choose not to believe in it, the universe has plenty of evidence to satisfy your conclusion and prove you right (to yourself). And if you choose to believe in free will, again you do so because you can see all the evidence you need to believe in that.

What you believe is true, is true for you. Nothing matters beyond your own truth.

Personally, I think the idea of not having free will is horrible. This obviously provides strong motivation for my believing in it, but I think I still would even if I liked the idea of not having free will.

If you look at a ball on a table again... hit it and it moves, etc... but if you put a rat on that table it would not react simply according to the direction of motion of the balls. It would flee where it thought it should to avoid getting hit. (I haven't confirmed this!)

If you could somehow forego the laws of physics and create a non-chaotic system where you could ensure that every time the balls were hit they would go the same way each time... the rat would still go in different directions each time, even right down to putting a different foot first as it set off to move each time.

And that's just a rat.

[LDS]

What kind of philosophy is this that I should base my life on it. To go through believing I am little more than a machine.

"Without the right to choose men would exist with 'spaghetti backbones and mashed potato brains.'"
-Religious Truths Defined. Joseph Fielding Smith Jr.

[Samildanach]

Here you go then all of you who believe in free will, and heres where you can prove free will exists. Try doing something you would never normally contemplate, I suspect this is where a lot of psychopaths start down their path, Try doing something like throwing a baby into traffic on a freeway or killing everyone around you and see how free your will is then. You will follow your programming and not do it. Free will is the ability to do whatever you want, whenever you want with no regard for ANY consequences.
Try testing it someway and see what happens instead of philosophising about it. You have free will prove it. (Notice I'm asking you to prove a positive not a negative.)

[Technosoul]

I agree with that experiment. Perhaps someone like Charles Manson could boast of free will? But even he could not make a choice to be perfectly right relative to every biblical or governmental law. If we have free will how come we cannot will our own perfectionism when it comes to conforming to all moral commandments of the Chruch?
In thought and in action?

Now we have some degree of free will. If you are on a diet you might have a choice on the menu between fat food or some green veggies, so you might use some will power to make a choice to eat healthy food even if your mind is graving some of those baby back ribs. If you wake up in the morning you could make a choice between wearing a blue shirt of a white shirt. So it seems we have some limited choices that give us the impression of free will but that would not mean that we can have unlimited free will (as pointed out). Likewise we have the religious idea of surrendering free will (indivdidual free will) and going with the flow as products of destiny and fate, letting go and letting God, etc. As in the Lord's Prayer "thy will be done" (not my free will). Which is another avenue for brainstorming.

Free will and the ability to make the right choice would also depend on absolute knowledge of all future potentials, as well as knowledge of all aspects of truth and not just limited truths or half-truths, would need to know the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Unless you are all-seeing and all-knowing it would be foolish to make choices that would effect your future, as that would be like running fast in near darkness or jumping over a log not knowing absolutly what is on the other side of the log.

And so the most responsible thing to do is to make choices only about those limited spaces where-in we see clearly what that choice will manifest for us. However not taking a risk might also limit our potentials because of the fears of not knowing for sure what choice to make. That could freeze us in our tracks. And as long as choice must include risk then we cannot be responsible for failure if we make the wrong choice and fall flat on our face. We must only assume we have the option to try again.

"Every good deed has it's punishment". (someone said). Hmmm? Works for me.

Anyway some things to think about, any comments?

Technosoul.

[LDS]

Free will is the ability to do whatever you want, whenever you want with no regard for ANY consequences.

You and I are using two very different definitions of free will.

Free will it seems to me would be making decisions based on the consequences. We are beings of reasoning, aren't we? We should look at the consequences of our actions before we take those actions.

If we have free will how come we cannot will our own perfectionism when it comes to conforming to all moral commandments of the Chruch?

We can! Though it wont be an overnight miraculous change. Instead it'll be "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little."

The first step is the desire for it to be truth.

Likewise we have the religious idea of surrendering free will (indivdidual free will) and going with the flow as products of destiny and fate, letting go and letting God, etc. As in the Lord's Prayer "thy will be done" (not my free will). Which is another avenue for brainstorming.

Surrendering? Seems to me just the opposite is true. When we begin to attempt the journey alone do we lose our free will. Drugs, alcohol, pornography these are all addictions, they diminish our ability to choose. We have been warned by the watchmen not to partake, to keep ourselves free from such chains. The choice is whether we have the faith to heed or not.

if we make the wrong choice and fall flat on our face. We must only assume we have the option to try again.

I agree 100%, is that not what the atonement was all about? That though we make mistakes we can repent and try again?

[5010]

I don't think will is about what you actually do. It is about what you want to do. Forced will means desire within you is not yours, but forced upon you against your own desire. Free will means the desire within you comes from yourself.

I believe that although I am not creating the present me, the present desire within me comes only from the present me, and is therefore presently free of outside force. For you to change my will, you must convince me to have reason to choose your alternative and once the reason exists within me and becomes part of me, my will freely springs forth from the new configuration.

Example:
1. dude-A now wants chocolate ice cream.
2. dude-B wants A to want vanilla.
3. dude-B burns vanilla incense
4. dude-A smells the incense and thinks to himself "wow that smells good" and at that moment the thought about vanilla ice cream is now integrated into dude-A's being.
5. dude-A, reminded of the pleasures of vanilla, weights vanilla vs chocolate and realizes that he likes vanilla better
6. dude-A follows his own realization and his will is free to follow it towards vanilla.
7. dude-A now wants vanilla ice cream

[orgaelin]

5010 is right. Samildanach, that means you might be wrong :)

Free will simply refers to the ability to truly make our own choices, as opposed to our choices being a natural consequence of our present situation.

If I *don't* throw a baby into an oncoming vehicle, it is because I choose to live within the bounds of what is good. Doing so means I cannot make the choice to kill the baby, but I still choose to be good, and thus choose to give up my right to choose to kill the baby.

I didn't choose to give myself a headache by writing that though!

Free will is the *ability to choose*, not the action of taking a choice.

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by LDS, You and I are using two very different definitions of free will. Free will it seems to me would be making decisions based on the consequences. We are beings of reasoning, aren't we? We should look at the consequences of our actions before we take those actions. I addressed that in another message, to know about all the consequences of a choice we would need to be all-knowing and all-seeing. You would need to be a fortune teller and your religion frowns upon such occults. We can! Though it wont be an overnight miraculous change. Instead it'll be "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little." The first step is the desire for it to be truth. Who among you has taken that last step? Show me one Christian who has reached such perfectism by free will and (catch 22) I will show you a liar and a hypocrite, which incidently moves you back to the first stage of imperfection. Surrendering? Seems to me just the opposite is true. When we begin to attempt the journey alone do we lose our free will. Drugs, alcohol, pornography these are all addictions, they diminish our ability to choose. We have been warned by the watchmen not to partake, to keep ourselves free from such chains. The choice is whether we have the faith to heed or not. What about people's addiction to reading the Bible or their addictions to attending church every week (or more then once a week)? If you already have the wisdom to make right choices then why do you depend on bible study for such knowledge? Indeed that is another way to loose your free will. I agree 100%, is that not what the atonement was all about? That though we make mistakes we can repent and try again?

I think what you are diving at is that we have limited choices based on morality rather then relative to something like picking out what shoe to buy at a store. Picking the wrong shoe might hurt your feet but such a choice has no moralaity consequenses such as being a bad boy or a good boy. If you see what I am getting at? You would not have a guilty consciousness for picking the wrong shoe to wear as a kind of painful punishishment in hind-site. Guilt and the need for repentance would be "looking back" because we did not "look ahead" with those same "eyes of morality". What you intend to get at here is that sometimes bad attutudes (greed and etc.) or our emotions (anger, etc.) can fog up our "moral eye glasses" and blind us to our moral standards such that we say or do the wrong thing. Aka "the beam in our own eye" can hamper our relationship with others.

So I have a bumper sticker saying for your idea. "We are, as we are towards others".

If we are at peace towards other we will have peace of mind wihtin our self.

If we are upset with others we will feel upset within our own mind.

If we judge others we will feel as if others are judgeing us.

Whatcha think?
Technosoul.

[LDS]

I addressed that in another message, to know about all the consequences of a choice we would need to be all-knowing and all-seeing.

I answered that a little later in my post.

"We have been warned by the watchmen"
We can have that foresight, it just takes faith in prophets.

Who among you has taken that last step? Show me one Christian who has reached such perfectism by free will and (catch 22) I will show you a liar and a hypocrite, which incidently moves you back to the first stage of imperfection.

You are correct, we can will ourselves upon the path though.

What about people's addiction to reading the Bible or their addictions to attending church every week (or more then once a week)?  If you already have the wisdom to make right choices then why do you depend on bible study for such knowledge?  Indeed that is another way to loose your free will.

People do this because they want to. They have experienced that change in heart.

Addiction is when you have a must have something you simply do not want. I know many people who wish they didnt have to smoke. Yet they are addicted, they cant get rid of it even though it is there desire to.

[Samildanach]

By that rational a person who likes smoking and does not intend to give up is not addicted.

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by LDS, I answered that a little later in my post. "We have been warned by the watchmen" We can have that foresight, it just takes faith in prophets. Technosoul says: Foresight is not rally faith in prophets because you did not see it for your self. Besides as far as I recall all the biblical predictions (that shall come true) have already taken place. Who among you has taken that last step? Show me one Christian who has reached such perfectism by free will and (catch 22) I will show you a liar and a hypocrite, which incidently moves you back to the first stage of imperfection. You are correct, we can will ourselves upon the path though. Technosoul says: But why would anyone want to take a pathway torwards being a hypocrite? To pretend you have free will to become perfect when you cannot will such a thing. People do this because they want to. They have experienced that change in heart. Addiction is when you have a must have something you simply do not want. I know many people who wish they didnt have to smoke. Yet they are addicted, they cant get rid of it even though it is there desire to.

And so what about their free will to stop smoking? If you think people have free will then it should be no problem to give up anything, instantly.

Of course, I have smoked for 20 years and I never got addicted, so don't know why you used that example? I tell you that you cannot "want" to stop attending church or reading the bible and related material. Just try giving up that addiction and see what happens, you will fail and not free will can set you free because you did not know the truth that you are addicted thinking that you do it because you want too. So starting right now I will check to see if you can overcome the desire to post religious messages by your won free will. This is a scientific test.

Technosoul.

[Samildanach]

Interesting point techno. If you truely have free will you should be able to turn your back on anything you believe in by simply choosing to believe in something else.

[orgaelin]

Ah but you could equally well decide not to change your beliefs, and that would be free will too. Free will allows you to change your mind about anything, or not to. Any restrictions about what you can and cannot do, morally, are your OWN restrictions, and we choose our restrictions too.

For example, I won't go out and throw a baby into an oncoming vehicle (as previously suggested) because I CHOOSE to live by the restrictions of my morality, which forbid me from killing babies. But I choose my morals; free will.