Magical math?

[Compugasm]

Quote by: Thanatos What's a FishBread?

It's like a FruitBread, except with fish instead of fruit.

Quote by: SoylentGreen Or perhaps i am missing the big picture here...

Yeah, Jesus had 12 diciples, so he's still short two FishBreads.
d = Diciples
x = (5a x 2b)/12d

[ItsDarts]

the problem with Dr_A's argument for this being a simple algebra problem is the fact that variables in algebra are replaceable with uhhhh VARIABLES, not objects. Variables are NUMBERS, not fish or bread. Not to mention that as far as I know, Mary never said this was 5th or 6th grade algebra.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Pyrastra How can you multiply five loaves and two fish?

Yeah, the loaves don't even have anything remotely like sex organs. (Is that how churches nationwide achieved their multiple sourced major musical accompaniment, "Church 'organs?'") Maybe they did it some through some rather odd animation and sexual transplantation process? "It's alive! It's alive!" As the organs "rise" to the occasion.

Note: whatever happened to using the proper term "multiplication" rather than some bastardization of "multiple?" Guess that's their idea of "ed-gee-kay-shun."

[Ken Carman]

Humor pushed aside.... but always ready to dust it off and bring it back down again for fun... that really has no place in a public school classroom. No more than Islam based questions, or Hindu, or...

And what if the question was answered: "nothing because it didn't happen?" Should a child be marked off for not believing and stating it as up front as the obviously theologically driven question?

[ItsDarts]

Here is an example rebuttal to Dr_A's arguement...

A common electronics formula is V=IR, where V= volts, I=current and R=resistance. We don't say 5rX2i=10ri... We say 5rX2i=10v. The variables are objects but they are related objects. I suppose it could be argued that fish and bread are related object, but to a 6th grader, what the heck is a fishbread? It's an incoherant variable. Not to mention he can't explain why they use a religious story problem in a public school.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: ItsDarts I may be wrong, but I think the point of this thread is WHY is a public school, using a clearly religious belief (that has no real evidence of occurance) as a math problem, not to mention, its poorly cited since you can't multiply 5 items of one object with 2 items of another, it doesn't make sense, you still have 5 loaves and 2 fish. I'll bet $100 that they aren't asking questions like What do you get when you take the Prophet Mohamed and ADD a 9 year old girl named Aisha?(sp?) :)

Or...

"When you deflower your hundred virgins how many new virgins do you get?"

Does Allah provide some heavenly version of birth control?

Does their virginity grow back?

Or do inquiring, intelligent, minds really NOT want to know?

[Maryjane]

I want to thank you all for your responses.


"The bread and fishe(s) multi plied" is what he wrote for those of you who can't read his handwriting. Ty, I should make you aware he has a fine motor skill disability which is neither here nor there in relation to the OP.



I made the OP vague for a reason. I wanted to know if your child (an 11 year old public school student) came home and showed you their notebook without any further explaination, what would your opinion be? I'm trying to wrap my head around all this...

Some kids would not think about questioning this or know that they should. My son feels comfortable sharing what goes on in class with me AND is aware there is supposed to be a separation of church and state in public school. He came home the other day and said..."Today in math, our teacher talked of a story in the bible that dealt with Jesus multiplying fish and bread, Mom, I kid you not" and then showed me his notebook as evidence he wasn't making it up. My question to him was.... "Is she teaching philosophy or math?"


If it's simple math, I am truly baffled by why she didn't say Joe the fishmonger or Bill the Baker. I don't know the teacher's reason for having the children/students put this "Jesus" cut and paste in their notebooks. (no, I don't know where she got that hand out or if it's a part of the public school curriculum) As you can see by the (1 thru 12) table below the problem, it's simple multiplication, not algebra. I am aware in simple multiplication you can't mulitply two different things and get one of the same thing.

From my recollection of the Jesus / fish story, the disciples didn't pass out 5000 fish sandwiches.... I believe Jesus kept breaking the bread and passing out fish until everyone was fed. The story has to do with scarcity and abundance...having faith that all things are possible with god, so it IS a story of religion. Is this the message his teacher is trying to teach?


I think It's Darts and others are right. There's something fishy in my son's math class and it's not the math. Why can't we keep religious education where it belongs....in church?

[Maryjane]

Quote by: Ken Carman Humor pushed aside.... but always ready to dust it off and bring it back down again for fun... that really has no place in a public school classroom. No more than Islam based questions, or Hindu, or... And what if the question was answered: "nothing because it didn't happen?" Should a child be marked off for not believing and stating it as up front as the obviously theologically driven question?

Exactly! What was my atheist son supposed to say? That would have opened up a can of worms for sure.

[SoylentGreen]

MaryjaneThat would have opened up a can of worms for sure.

But on the brighter side , at least worms can multiply.

[Maryjane]

Quote by: Athena Excellent comment. Where does the education material come from? I think we should all write to the source and write to the school pointing out that not only can the lesson be precieved as offensive introduction of religion into the school, but it is also a bad lesson in logic. Do we can enough to do that, or are satisfied with just complaining? In a democracy it is our responsibility to take action you know. That is what our liberty is about. Maryjane can you provide us with the address of the source of this very bad math lesson, and the address of the school. Let us experience the power of the Internet and the power of democracy, and the meaning of majority rule as the rule of best reason, as opposed to autocratic rule, which may or may not be good reasoning, but can not be changed by the people. I am disappointed by the subject of the thread, because there is magic in math that helps us better understand reality, and I was hoping this was the subject of the thread. That would have been positive.

Athena,
I appreciate your interest and I will be contacting the school. I've already had to deal with his English teachers making the class read a book
Amazon.com: Pleasing the Ghost: Sharon Creech, Stacey Schuett: Books
with a story line that has to do with death (of a 9 year old's father) ghosts, heaven, afterlife, and most shocking was them finding humor in the story.

I explained to them that there is nothing remotely humorous about a child losing his father and they should be a bit more sensitive about the subject matter they teach to 10 and 11 year olds. (and that it happened to my son when he was 6) I did not appreciate the school having my son read a book that puts the notion of accepting a supernatural afterlife in his head when I went through great pains to explain the facts of life and death to him.

* The School Library Journal didn't care of it either*

[Compugasm]

I'm serious Mrs Stevens, Satan ate my homework!!!

[Aussie]

There were a million different things this teacher could have used in the example, but never miss a goot opporunity to throw some Christianity in hey!

Could you imagine the local uproar there were questions like Mohammed wanted to move the mountain 100m, but could only manage 80m, how many metres short was he?

[Dr_Acula]

Quote by: ItsDarts Here is an example rebuttal to Dr_A's arguement... A common electronics formula is V=IR, where V= volts, I=current and R=resistance. We don't say 5rX2i=10ri... We say 5rX2i=10v. The variables are objects but they are related objects. I suppose it could be argued that fish and bread are related object, but to a 6th grader, what the heck is a fishbread? It's an incoherant variable. Not to mention he can't explain why they use a religious story problem in a public school.

Actually, I think you made my point. Volt = Ampere x Ohm. And Ampere = Columb/Second. And just as Columbs, seconds, Newtons, Joules, Grams, Volts, Amperes and Ohms can be multiplied between them, even if they aren't really numbers, then fishes and bread can too. Or else, we simply couldn't solve the most basic physisics equation;
F = m x a . After all, if 5Fishx2Bread isn't 10FishBread, then 10grams x 2meters/second(2) isn't 20Newtons. (or even 20gramsmteres/second(2)).
Newtons aren't numbers anymore than fishes are.

And on the subject, "We don't say 5rX2i=10ri... We say 5rX2i=10v"... we do say "ri". It's the same as "v". The very definition of V is ri, V =RxI. It's just an abrviaton so we don't have to go around saying ColumbxOhm/second.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Dr_Acula Actually, I think you made my point. Volt = Ampere x Ohm. And Ampere = Columb/Second. And just as Columbs, seconds, Newtons, Joules, Grams, Volts, Amperes and Ohms can be multiplied between them, even if they aren't really numbers, then fishes and bread can too. Or else, we simply couldn't solve the most basic physisics equation; F = m x a . After all, if 5Fishx2Bread isn't 10FishBread, then 10grams x 2meters/second(2) isn't 20Newtons. (or even 20gramsmteres/second(2)). Newtons aren't numbers anymore than fishes are. And on the subject, "We don't say 5rX2i=10ri... We say 5rX2i=10v"... we do say "ri". It's the same as "v". The very definition of V is ri, V =RxI. It's just an abrviaton so we don't have to go around saying ColumbxOhm/second.

The point I'm trying to make is that Fishbread is not a unit of meassure. Considering this is 5th or 6th grade math also makes this more spurious and as pointed out by Mary, is not algebra.

If we combine current with resistence, we get volts, if we combine fish with bread we don't get "fishbread" because fishbread is something you made up and even if we mix fish with bread to make fishbread, multiplying 5 loaves with 2 fish doesn't give you 10 loaves of fish bread or 10 breadfishes. These are incoherent units. Even if we were to accept your argument, could you explain why we would teach 5th graders this kind of algebra? Even thinking about it as an adult hurts my brain LOL.

[Dan_77]

Quote by: Aussie There were a million different things this teacher could have used in the example, but never miss a goot opporunity to throw some Christianity in hey! Could you imagine the local uproar there were questions like Mohammed wanted to move the mountain 100m, but could only manage 80m, how many metres short was he?

I know, it would be an outrage!!! The nerve of some educators, trying to use the metric system....

[Dr_Acula]

Quote by: ItsDarts The point I'm trying to make is that Fishbread is not a unit of meassure. Considering this is 5th or 6th grade math also makes this more spurious and as pointed out by Mary, is not algebra. If we combine current with resistence, we get volts, if we combine fish with bread we don't get "fishbread" because fishbread is something you made up and even if we mix fish with bread to make fishbread, multiplying 5 loaves with 2 fish doesn't give you 10 loaves of fish bread or 10 breadfishes. These are incoherent units. Even if we were to accept your argument, could you explain why we would teach 5th graders this kind of algebra? Even thinking about it as an adult hurts my brain LOL.

Wasn't talking about what kids should or shouldn't learn. I was talking about math. And the allmighty FishBread.

So you'll agree that Mathematically speaking, I am right, right?
I mean, yeah, we should have to get all togheter and say "A Bread is hereby the unit of measurement of.. blahblablah", to formalize the whole thing, but just as long as we say a Bread is always a Bread and the same Bread (and if you see the picture they are all the same), it works as an Algebraic variable and there is no problem with the Jesus multiplication. I mean, as far as I'm conerned, Math isn't so much affected by law and institution...

Pfff. Kids should know specail relativity by the second month of pregnancy.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Dr_Acula Wasn't talking about what kids should or shouldn't learn. I was talking about math. And the allmighty FishBread. So you'll agree that Mathematically speaking, I am right, right?

No, I disagree. The variables of Fish and Bread are incoherent when placed together in a formula. I agree that 5B X 2F = 10BF only if B and F are variables that have a coherent meaning. for instance, if B = Bull (as in cow) and F = Frog, when multiplying 5BX2F you do NOT get 10 Bullfrogs the variables are incoherent when used together. The units are incompatible.

[Aussie]

Quote by: tivodan1116 I know, it would be an outrage!!! The nerve of some educators, trying to use the metric system....

Ha ha ha, now lets start a thread about that one!!

[stardust]

Quote by: ItsDarts I may be wrong, but I think the point of this thread is WHY is a public school, using a clearly religious belief (that has no real evidence of occurance) as a math problem, not to mention, its poorly cited since you can't multiply 5 items of one object with 2 items of another, it doesn't make sense, you still have 5 loaves and 2 fish. I'll bet $100 that they aren't asking questions like What do you get when you take the Prophet Mohamed and ADD a 9 year old girl named Aisha?(sp?) :)

Silly people draw silly parallels which are necessarily silly to them because they are too silly to make anything of it beyond silliness.

[RavenFlame]

Quote by: ItsDarts No, I disagree. The variables of Fish and Bread are incoherent when placed together in a formula. I agree that 5B X 2F = 10BF only if B and F are variables that have a coherent meaning. for instance, if B = Bull (as in cow) and F = Frog, when multiplying 5BX2F you do NOT get 10 Bullfrogs the variables are incoherent when used together. The units are incompatible.

Instead you would get 10 * Bulls * Frogs
As the answer to this question is 10 * Fish * Bread