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Mr.Vicchio · Aug 14, 2004, 06:53 am

Think about this for a moment, nothing, I mean not a single atom, time.. nothing should exsist. Is it not incredible that ANYTHING exsists at all?

Where did it come from? The why is even harder... what could have created.. anything at all?

It boggles my small mind to contemplate the situation seriously... NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING should ever have been... it makes no sense. Everything int he Universe, everything we KNOW about anything says nothing should exists... you cannot create something from nothing, but that is exactly what has happened...

Is it not incredible that anything should have come into being?

And that leads to why does anyhtign exsist? Did all of this created from nothing serve a purpose? And to what end?

Boggles the mind.

Gorgo · Aug 14, 2004, 07:05 am

Asking those kinds of questions are fine, but after a while you realize that they're just mind games. Ask a tree why it exists. It just does. It doesn't look for why.

Decide what you want to do with your life. That's why you exist.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio,

And that leads to why does anyhtign exsist? Did all of this created from nothing serve a purpose? And to what end?

Boggles the mind.

CmJour · Aug 14, 2004, 11:23 am

The strange thing about the question, "why is there something rather than nothing" is that the answer would be a part of the question. If you say, God is responsible for the existence of the universe, and God is something, then the same question applies to him.

Samildanach · Aug 14, 2004, 02:05 pm

You are missing the whole point, nothing and something are just all part of the same thing. Neither is more important than the other, like dark and light one can't exist without the other.

SlySpy · Aug 14, 2004, 03:06 pm

You are making a false pressuposition by assuming that our universe would need to begin from nothing. It is possible that our universe has existed forever. It is also preposterous to assume that non-existence could exist since that is a contradiction.

Mr.Vicchio · Aug 14, 2004, 04:28 pm

Wait just a second...

The concept of anything exsisting, is when you think about it, extrodinairy... where di it come from.... how did anything form??

I know it exsists, so that the premis that nothing should exisist is inheiriently flawed, obviously by the fact.. here we are. But thats not the point, logic fails on this fundemental point. The universe exsists.. how did it come into being.. how did anything BEGIN? Nothingness should be the rule... something from nothing... thats how the universe started.. and that is just boggling.

Aug 14, 2004, 06:20 pm

i've been over this for some time. what logically makes sense is this: no existence, no matter, no space. that is the universe's resting state.

our universe has been created and filled and sent spinning. i believe that this was done by a conscious force with power to build fate.

voyager · Aug 14, 2004, 08:44 pm

This is all foolishness. We exhist and that is it. To say we cannot or should not exhist, we exhist and that's it. Infinite regression get you no where also ie it is infinite.

I think we should all sit back, take a deep breath and enjoy exhistance, there is nothing like it.

SlySpy · Aug 14, 2004, 10:18 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mr.Vicchio,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Wait just a second...

The concept of anything exsisting, is when you think about it, extrodinairy... where di it come from.... how did anything form??

I know it exsists, so that the premis that nothing should exisist is inheiriently flawed, obviously by the fact.. here we are. But thats not the point, logic fails on this fundemental point. The universe exsists.. how did it come into being.. how did anything BEGIN? Nothingness should be the rule... something from nothing... thats how the universe started.. and that is just boggling.[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-SlySpy,
You are making a false pressuposition by assuming that our universe would need to begin from nothing. It is possible that our universe has existed forever. It is also preposterous to assume that non-existence could exist since that is a contradiction.[/quote]

**Pooeypants** · Aug 15, 2004, 06:14 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio,
Wait just a second...

The concept of anything exsisting, is when you think about it, extrodinairy... where di it come from.... how did anything form??

I know it exsists, so that the premis that nothing should exisist is inheiriently flawed, obviously by the fact.. here we are. But thats not the point, logic fails on this fundemental point. The universe exsists.. how did it come into being.. how did anything BEGIN? Nothingness should be the rule... something from nothing... thats how the universe started.. and that is just boggling.

Btw, you've spelt "exist" incorrectly throughout the thread, is this intentional?

Anyway, I think that we can turn this round on it's head. If we didn't exist and we couldn't think then we wouldn't be here to ask this question.

rcne · Aug 15, 2004, 07:27 am

We all understand the explosive qualities of converting 'matter to energy', I myself questioned the inital 'energy to matter' process and the complexities derived from the original photons vibrating at differing frequencies thus combining to form matter.

It does boggle the mind. The 'universe' existed as a no-point of energy (no space, no time, no matter) until something happened to that energy.

That leads back to the 2nd law - energy can't be created or destroyed only changed. So if energy is energy what could cause the 'cause'.

I have to end it here before I get stuck in a 'quantum loop'.

Mr.Vicchio · Aug 15, 2004, 08:43 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Pooeypants,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Pooeypants,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Mr.Vicchio,
Wait just a second...

The concept of anything exsisting, is when you think about it, extrodinairy... where di it come from.... how did anything form??

I know it exsists, so that the premis that nothing should exisist is inheiriently flawed, obviously by the fact.. here we are. But thats not the point, logic fails on this fundemental point. The universe exsists.. how did it come into being.. how did anything BEGIN? Nothingness should be the rule... something from nothing... thats how the universe started.. and that is just boggling.

Btw, you've spelt "exist" incorrectly throughout the thread, is this intentional?

Anyway, I think that we can turn this round on it's head. If we didn't exist and we couldn't think then we wouldn't be here to ask this question.[/b][/quote]

Negative, I am a phonetic speller with an allergy for spell check, I beg the forgiveness of the boards.

m5lange1 · Aug 15, 2004, 09:11 am

Someday we may actually know. (personally that is my idea of heaven...understanding all :) )

The old human grey matter and level of knowledge just has not quite gotten up to scratch for that yet.

Some believe they "know".
UM..... OK

Believe... sure. That is faith.

The difference between believe and know is
believing is to have faith in a percieved truth without evidence.
knowing is to have provable evidence of a truth.

People believing answers to questions like this is very realistic.

People "knowing" answers to questions like this is... well... unrealistic.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Aug 17, 2004, 02:41 am

Actually nothing does exist, but since we cannot compare it to the something that did exist we mistakingly assume that this is existence.

Makes just as much sense said backward, so that only proves that language is not even up to the task of emcompassing this discussion, much less explaining it.

tuula · Aug 17, 2004, 12:24 pm

whoa mr v. two questions...
1. what have you been smoking
2. where can i get some...
a little too deep for me folks!

Suburbanite · Aug 17, 2004, 05:10 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio,
Think about this for a moment, nothing, I mean not a single atom, time.. nothing should exsist. Is it not incredible that ANYTHING exsists at all?

Where did it come from? The why is even harder... what could have created.. anything at all?

It boggles my small mind to contemplate the situation seriously... NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING should ever have been... it makes no sense. Everything int he Universe, everything we KNOW about anything says nothing should exists... you cannot create something from nothing, but that is exactly what has happened...

Is it not incredible that anything should have come into being?

And that leads to why does anyhtign exsist? Did all of this created from nothing serve a purpose? And to what end?

Boggles the mind.

It simply is. The reason it boggles your mind is because you have language. You can say the world "everything" and have a symbolic grasp of all of existence, without that tool the word would be incomprehensible to you. Similarly, put words like "life" and "existence" into a human's mouth and you'll find them butchering them with reasons and meanings when there really doesn't have to be any.

orgaelin · Aug 20, 2004, 02:38 am

The secret to answering this question is infinity. We can fairly easily reason that there was nothingness, before the beginning of the universe. But nothingness is an extreme, and all extremes have extreme opposites.

The opposite of nothingness is infinity. All extreme opposites are also the same thing, however... fast and slow, different speeds, hot and cold, different temperatures.

Nothingness and infinity are just different extremes of substance or quantity. If you think it through, the two both work by the same rules: cannot be halved, doubled, multiplied or divided, and you can't have less the zero or more than infinity.

Anywho, between any two extremes there is always a happy medium, a middle-ground or balance. The balance between infinity and nothingness is finity, or the finite.

So, put simply, the basic state of existence quite naturally includes the finite universe.

I'm not saying what caused all the matter and stuff. I have no clue. But I do have an idea...

If you think about 'before' time began, at the initial state of nothingness... there would have been no time. With there being no time, cause and effect can just as easily be effect and cause. That is, cause doesn't have to come first.

So what if there some was some cause that caused the entire physical contents of the universe to come into existence? Obviously whatever it was wouldn't have existed until it had already caused itself and the universe to exist, but this is a temporal paradox where it doesn't have to exist first.

Put simply, event A causes universe to exist, which causes event A to happen. Without time, this would be quite possible.

5010 · Aug 20, 2004, 04:19 pm

The problem with infinity is the mainstream adoption of the theory that the universe has a finite cosmological age. That plus the 1st law of thermodynamics causes me to suppose an ultimate source from outside the universe that, unlike all of nature, obeys no mechanism.

orgaelin · Aug 22, 2004, 03:11 pm

Quote:

The problem with infinity is the mainstream adoption of the theory that the universe has a finite cosmological age.

Hasn't it?

Ken Carman · Sep 1, 2004, 07:02 am

Not to be too existential about this, but what we would refer to as "something," another being might dismiss as "nothing."

Aug 14, 2004, 06:53 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,031	Think about this for a moment, nothing, I mean not a single atom, time.. nothing should exsist. Is it not incredible that ANYTHING exsists at all? Where did it come from? The why is even harder... what could have created.. anything at all? It boggles my small mind to contemplate the situation seriously... NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING should ever have been... it makes no sense. Everything int he Universe, everything we KNOW about anything says nothing should exists... you cannot create something from nothing, but that is exactly what has happened... Is it not incredible that anything should have come into being? And that leads to why does anyhtign exsist? Did all of this created from nothing serve a purpose? And to what end? Boggles the mind. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Aug 14, 2004, 11:23 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
CmJour Molten Ash Location: Miami, FL Posts: 46	The strange thing about the question, "why is there something rather than nothing" is that the answer would be a part of the question. If you say, God is responsible for the existence of the universe, and God is something, then the same question applies to him. Philosophy is a game with objectives but no rules. Mathematics is a game with rules but no objectives. Theology is a game whose object is to bring rules into the subjective.

Aug 14, 2004, 02:05 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	You are missing the whole point, nothing and something are just all part of the same thing. Neither is more important than the other, like dark and light one can't exist without the other. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Aug 14, 2004, 04:28 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,031	Wait just a second... The concept of anything exsisting, is when you think about it, extrodinairy... where di it come from.... how did anything form?? I know it exsists, so that the premis that nothing should exisist is inheiriently flawed, obviously by the fact.. here we are. But thats not the point, logic fails on this fundemental point. The universe exsists.. how did it come into being.. how did anything BEGIN? Nothingness should be the rule... something from nothing... thats how the universe started.. and that is just boggling. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Aug 15, 2004, 07:27 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
rcne Moderator/nobody Posts: 1,566	We all understand the explosive qualities of converting 'matter to energy', I myself questioned the inital 'energy to matter' process and the complexities derived from the original photons vibrating at differing frequencies thus combining to form matter. It does boggle the mind. The 'universe' existed as a no-point of energy (no space, no time, no matter) until something happened to that energy. That leads back to the 2nd law - energy can't be created or destroyed only changed. So if energy is energy what could cause the 'cause'. I have to end it here before I get stuck in a 'quantum loop'. Live Long and Prosper (Genetics and Capitalism)

Aug 14, 2004, 03:06 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
SlySpy Molten Ash Posts: 135	You are making a false pressuposition by assuming that our universe would need to begin from nothing. It is possible that our universe has existed forever. It is also preposterous to assume that non-existence could exist since that is a contradiction.

Aug 14, 2004, 06:20 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Bob_Dobbs Guest Posts: n/a	i've been over this for some time. what logically makes sense is this: no existence, no matter, no space. that is the universe's resting state. our universe has been created and filled and sent spinning. i believe that this was done by a conscious force with power to build fate.

Aug 14, 2004, 08:44 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
voyager Molten Ash Location: Michigan Posts: 103	This is all foolishness. We exhist and that is it. To say we cannot or should not exhist, we exhist and that's it. Infinite regression get you no where also ie it is infinite. I think we should all sit back, take a deep breath and enjoy exhistance, there is nothing like it.

Aug 15, 2004, 09:11 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
m5lange1 Igneous Magma Posts: 649	Someday we may actually know. (personally that is my idea of heaven...understanding all :) ) The old human grey matter and level of knowledge just has not quite gotten up to scratch for that yet. Some believe they "know". UM..... OK Believe... sure. That is faith. The difference between believe and know is believing is to have faith in a percieved truth without evidence. knowing is to have provable evidence of a truth. People believing answers to questions like this is very realistic. People "knowing" answers to questions like this is... well... unrealistic. Protester against the culture war!!!!

Aug 17, 2004, 02:41 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	Actually nothing does exist, but since we cannot compare it to the something that did exist we mistakingly assume that this is existence. Makes just as much sense said backward, so that only proves that language is not even up to the task of emcompassing this discussion, much less explaining it. Logical Fallicies Link

Aug 17, 2004, 12:24 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
tuula Molten Ash Location: Finland Posts: 26	whoa mr v. two questions... 1. what have you been smoking 2. where can i get some... a little too deep for me folks!

Aug 20, 2004, 02:38 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
orgaelin Igneous Magma Location: Midlands UK Posts: 704	The secret to answering this question is infinity. We can fairly easily reason that there was nothingness, before the beginning of the universe. But nothingness is an extreme, and all extremes have extreme opposites. The opposite of nothingness is infinity. All extreme opposites are also the same thing, however... fast and slow, different speeds, hot and cold, different temperatures. Nothingness and infinity are just different extremes of substance or quantity. If you think it through, the two both work by the same rules: cannot be halved, doubled, multiplied or divided, and you can't have less the zero or more than infinity. Anywho, between any two extremes there is always a happy medium, a middle-ground or balance. The balance between infinity and nothingness is finity, or the finite. So, put simply, the basic state of existence quite naturally includes the finite universe. I'm not saying what caused all the matter and stuff. I have no clue. But I do have an idea... If you think about 'before' time began, at the initial state of nothingness... there would have been no time. With there being no time, cause and effect can just as easily be effect and cause. That is, cause doesn't have to come first. So what if there some was some cause that caused the entire physical contents of the universe to come into existence? Obviously whatever it was wouldn't have existed until it had already caused itself and the universe to exist, but this is a temporal paradox where it doesn't have to exist first. Put simply, event A causes universe to exist, which causes event A to happen. Without time, this would be quite possible. "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

Aug 20, 2004, 04:19 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
5010 mostly harmless Location: USA Posts: 1,282	The problem with infinity is the mainstream adoption of the theory that the universe has a finite cosmological age. That plus the 1st law of thermodynamics causes me to suppose an ultimate source from outside the universe that, unlike all of nature, obeys no mechanism. - solo (my site)

Sep 1, 2004, 07:02 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
Ken Carman Just plain WEIRD Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 1,488	Not to be too existential about this, but what we would refer to as "something," another being might dismiss as "nothing." Ken's weekly column... Inspection... on site Inspection... off site.