A Gospel Challenge

[Aussie]

I just stumbled across a quote just then, not being completely verse with the Bible, I thought I'd throw it out here and see what the views are (this is not in relation to 'emotional' or 'spiritual' intelligence).

"So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence" - Bertrand Russell

[Morality Games]

Intelligence = Dangerous Thinking = Devil Magic.

[Jack]

Two things I've never read in the Bible, any praise of intelligence or any instances of levity. The gospels don't mention the day Jesus was telling the assembled crowd a joke, "These two centurions walk into a bar..."

[Diogenes]

OK...obviously no one in this thread has ever read the bible...

sure the word ' intelligence ' is not mentioned...but when exactly did that word come into popular usage ...or was first used by anyone?

If for instance it was first used in let's say 1432AD then how ignorant do you have to be to ask why it wasn't used in 30AD?

You have to remember that in 30AD their vocabulary was not as extensive as it is today...if they had a dictionary during those times it would have been a very small paperback.

The word ' wisdom ' is used frequently in both the new and old testaments.

As for the old testament...the Hebrew written language didn't even have vowels at the time of it's writing. This is the reason their god is named YHWH...vowels were added later changing YHWH to Yahweh.

[sonoman]

The greatest knowledge in the world is to be found in the New Testament. It's where you discover who we are, where we are going, and why. Did little Bertie tell you this? I don't think so..the atheist mindset is unable to receive spiritual phenomena and projects their disability onto all of humanity as if everyone else were as spiritually blind as them. We get a big laugh here at the Rainbow Bible School making fun of spiritually-challenged atheists..blind as bats running into God everywhere they turn but unable to see Them..

[Whilletal]

Quote by: Aussie I just stumbled across a quote just then, not being completely verse with the Bible, I thought I'd throw it out here and see what the views are (this is not in relation to 'emotional' or 'spiritual' intelligence). "So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence" - Bertrand Russell

You should read the Proverbs and the stories of Solomon. I think you can find plenty of intelligence in there but it is also referred to as wisdom. Remember Hebrew and Greek are older than English. We have words that try to describe something from their languages but there is enough of a difference that we almost never have an exact exchange of meaning. A good (and perhaps overused) example is love. In English we have the word love and it can and does describe a massive amount of things and degrees. You won't find that in Biblical Greek. It is a much more precise language. There are different words that describe different types (aspects) of love.

[Whilletal]

Quote by: Jack Two things I've never read in the Bible, any praise of intelligence or any instances of levity. The gospels don't mention the day Jesus was telling the assembled crowd a joke, "These two centurions walk into a bar..."

Jack, although it does not record Christ going "two Jews and a duck walk into a bar" think about the first miracle recorded that he preformed. The wedding in Canaan. Look up what weddings were like. The were very joyous affairs much like today's weddings. They were partying and dancing, singing etc. I have yet to be at a wedding where someone hasn't told some type of joke (usually very bad ones) and I have no doubt it has been this way throughout the history of man.

[Walrus]

Quote by: Diogenes OK...obviously no one in this thread has ever read the bible... sure the word ' intelligence ' is not mentioned...but when exactly did that word come into popular usage ...or was first used by anyone? If for instance it was first used in let's say 1432AD then how ignorant do you have to be to ask why it wasn't used in 30AD? You have to remember that in 30AD their vocabulary was not as extensive as it is today...if they had a dictionary during those times it would have been a very small paperback. The word ' wisdom ' is used frequently in both the new and old testaments. As for the old testament...the Hebrew written language didn't even have vowels at the time of it's writing. This is the reason their god is named YHWH...vowels were added later changing YHWH to Yahweh.

Possibly because the bible wasn’t originally written in English and depending on which translation you read the terms prudent, wise, learned and even intelligent are used.

[Jack]

I would think it was obvious Russell is not referring to the word "intelligence" but to the knowledge gained through critical thinking. The Bible praises faith, belief without evidence or question. People are praised for the degree of their faith, while the intelligent are condemned as being too smart for their own good. That attitude still permeates religion. The wisdom gained through critical and skeptical inquiry is repudiated while the "wisdom" gained through unquestioned belief is praised.

The possibility of Jesus/god having a sense of humor can be claimed but nowhere is it specifically mentioned. God the father is portrayed as totally humorless, while having a healthy sense of humor is never mentioned. No doubt humor is too worldly for the fanatical gospel writers to have considered it of any value. Even today religious fanatics display a lack of a sense of humor. They take themselves very seriously.

The greatest knowledge in the world is to be found in the New Testament. It's where you discover who we are, where we are going, and why.

That's a matter of perception, one that many, not just atheists, don't share.

the atheist mindset is unable to receive spiritual phenomena

Atheists refuse to blindly accept unsupported propositions. We prefer to understand reality in its natural state rather than project imaginary and magical beliefs onto it. Nature offers evidence of its processes. Religion doesn't. Religion requires acceptance on faith alone, offering no objective evidence of its validity. The evidence in nature leads to natural conclusions to those who haven't already reached the "god" conclusion, which distorts their perception of the evidence. Preconceived notions hamper honest inquiry.

running into God everywhere they turn but unable to see Them..

Of course the theist can't entertain the possibility that's because the god they imagine doesn't exist in reality. That seems a simple explanation for any particular god not being evidenced.

[Diogenes]

The Bible praises faith, belief without evidence or question.

I am not a christian so this is not a defense of the bible from a christian...but you obviously either haven't read the bible or you read it with already preconceived notions or prejudices that has obviously interfered with your vision.

This is how ignorance and prejudice is manifested and perpetuated...go read the bible again...this time leave your eyes open.

[Jack]

but you obviously either haven't read the bible or you read it with already preconceived notions or prejudices that has obviously interfered with your vision.

You mean like the assumption without evidence that god exists?


I read the Bible several times as a god-fearing, fully believing Christian. Once I started honestly and critically examining my faith I began to realize how poorly it stands up to skepticism. Eventually my ability to think for myself superseded blind faith and I realized that religion is totally unsupported by evidence in the real world. At that point I began to call myself an atheist. That was over 30 years ago, and I'm still an unbeliever.

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

[quote=Aussie;546572]I just stumbled across a quote just then, not being completely verse with the Bible, I thought I'd throw it out here and see what the views are (this is not in relation to 'emotional' or 'spiritual' intelligence).


As opposed to what other {intelligence? }

Quote by: Aussie "So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence" - Bertrand Russell

Anybody who would make such a comment is evidently not an objective observer. So, either Mr. Bertrand Russell has never read the Gospels or he is just exhibiting some Anti-Gospel bias.


Here is a verse from the Gospels, which praises the {intelligence} of those who supposedly do not follow God, over the {intelligence} of those who supposedly do.

1. Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

The parable of the wise and foolish virgins:

Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish.

Matthew 25:3 They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

Matthew 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Matthew 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Matthew 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, [Not so]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

Quote by: Morality Games Intelligence = Dangerous Thinking = Devil Magic.

That could be your Position. And by the way, that Position isn’t necessarily {inaccurate} or {wrong.}

Quote by: Jack Two things I've never read in the Bible, any praise of intelligence or any instances of levity. The gospels don't mention the day Jesus was telling the assembled crowd a joke, "These two centurions walk into a bar..."

Again, anybody who would make such a comment in respects to the Bible's advocacy of intelligence is evidently not an objective observer.

So Jack, either you have never read the Bible, or you are just exhibiting some Anti-Bible bias. The Bible is saturated with verses which underscore the need for wisdom or intelligence.

1 Kings 4:34 And there came of all people to hear the wisdom of Solomon, from all kings of the earth, which had heard of his wisdom.

1 Kings 10:4 And when the queen of Sheba had seen all Solomon's wisdom, and the house that he had built,
1 Kings 10:5 And the meat of his table, and the sitting of his servants, and the attendance of his ministers, and their apparel, and his cupbearers, and his ascent by which he went up unto the house of the LORD; there was no more spirit in her.
1 Kings 10:6 And she said to the king, It was a true report that I heard in mine own land of thy acts and of thy wisdom.
1 Kings 10:7 Howbeit I believed not the words, until I came, and mine eyes had seen [it]: and, behold, the half was not told me: thy wisdom and prosperity exceedeth the fame which I heard.
1 Kings 10:8 Happy [are] thy men, happy [are] these thy servants, which stand continually before thee, [and] that hear thy wisdom.

1 Kings 10:23 So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom.

1 Kings 10:24 And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart.


Proverbs 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;

Proverbs 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, [and] apply thine heart to understanding;


In fact, intelligence is so needed that the Lord God himself stated that his own people are destroyed because of their love for ignorance and rejection of knowledge.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

[Diogenes]

You mean like the assumption without evidence that god exists?

All that is is evasion...and it doesn't matter if you ' were ' a christian at one point...you, by your own admission, have spent the last 30 years in denial of it...

long enough to embed deep-seated prejudices.

I find that most people who turn to religion do it for the same reasons other people turn away from it...and neither has anything to do with the religion itself.

Your words...

The Bible praises faith, belief without evidence or question.

do not show me that you have read the bible as you claim...what it does show me is a lack of scriptural knowledge. And if by chance you did read it you couldn't have possibly understood it based upon that statement.

Maybe this is why you turned away from it...not because it was wrong for you...but because you couldn't understand it...so your own inability to understand drove you away?

.................

Before you can understand religion you first and foremost need to understand what religion is.

Jesus came to heal the sick, he said himself he did not come to heal the healthy...Siddhattha explained religion as a raft that you use to cross a river then you let it go, you don't carry the raft upon your back...religion is a means to an end...and once you understand that your prejudice will vanish toward them.

It seems to me you need to be an atheist as much as some people need to be religious...you are both in need of a physician...both in need of a raft...

if you really understood...you would not let your prejudice guide your thoughts.

[Jack]

All that is is evasion

Not so. It's a fair question. I would contend it's obvious that religion provides a context of presumption that precludes an objective view of reality.

have spent the last 30 years in denial of it

Hardly. The only thing I can fairly deny is that theists have offered any convincing evidence to support their contentions. I grew out of religion, growing in knowledge and the appreciation for reality.

[Diogenes]

Hardly. The only thing I can fairly deny is that theists have offered any convincing evidence to support their contentions. I grew out of religion, growing in knowledge and the appreciation for reality.

Hummmmm...and therein lies the need...

as I said religion is a means to an end...if you understood that you would not be in so much need for it to prove itself or for you to justify your reasons for denying it.

I do not see how you are any different than a religious person...you are both clinging to what you believe ....refusing to let the raft go...demanding that you are right and they are wrong...

the reality is...you are both wrong...and you are both right.

................................

A philosopher was sitting in the audience listening to a speech...the man in front of him was complaining that the speaker was not speaking on the topic that was supposed to be...
the philosopher kicked the man's chair...
and said to him ' and what value would you assign to the speech that he gave? '
and the man wasn't able to answer because he was so busy complaining he never heard what was being said.

..................................

You are so busy trying to be heard that you never stop to listen.

[Diogenes]

Let's see how well you can listen...

Siddhattha taught that a man must be acquainted with the beliefs and religions of others as ignorance of them is not conducive to understanding.

Jesus taught that one should have compassion even on a religious holiday and should feed the poor and hungry.

Socrates taught that a man should strive toward the understanding and the mending of his own nature before condemning others for theirs.

which of these statements do you disagree with? If you say they are correct then you cannot be in opposition with them.

This is why you should never reject anything outright...because there will be points you agree with and those you do not.

If you understand this you cannot be atheist or theist.

Once you declare yourself to be one or the other you are both the same...you are both in need of that raft...both unwilling to cast it off even as you cross the river. When you finally reach a point in understanding you will no longer feel the need to label yourself to be this or that...you will no longer need to be a theist or an atheist you will just be.

[sonoman]

"Atheists refuse to blindly accept unsupported propositions. We prefer to understand reality in its natural state rather than project imaginary and magical beliefs onto it. Nature offers evidence of its processes. Religion doesn't. Religion requires acceptance on faith alone, offering no objective evidence of its validity. The evidence in nature leads to natural conclusions to those who haven't already reached the "god" conclusion, which distorts their perception of the evidence. Preconceived notions hamper honest inquiry."

Here it is. The above "rational answer" that completely misses the point. Missing spiritual receptors or spiritual receptors not functioning or very weak= mental disability=left brain dominancy to point of rejection of right brain reception of spiritual phenomena= disability in holistic consciousness. Sorry, atheists. Luckily, you can still function in most places in society where spiritual consciousness isn't required.

[Jack]

your reasons for denying it.

I do not see how you are any different than a religious person...you are both clinging to what you believe ....refusing to let the raft go...demanding that you are right and they are wrong...

You are so busy trying to be heard that you never stop to listen.

There, now I believe we have those in order. I'm denying nothing theistically beyond the fact that theists cannot provide convincing evidence to support their faith.
I'm not contending that I know anyone is wrong. I am saying that if they're right they ought to be able to convince me and everyone else of that. That they cannot does not prove them wrong, but neither does it validate their claims.

[Jack]

Missing spiritual receptors or spiritual receptors not functioning or very weak= mental disability=left brain dominancy to point of rejection of right brain reception of spiritual phenomena= disability in holistic consciousness.

Let's see some medical support for these supposed "receptors". This looks like new age rhetoric without an ounce of validity.

Better yet, let's get back on topic and address this in an appropriate thread.

[Diogenes]

There, now I believe we have those in order. I'm denying nothing theistically beyond the fact that theists cannot provide convincing evidence to support their faith. I'm not contending that I know anyone is wrong. I am saying that if they're right they ought to be able to convince me and everyone else of that. That they cannot does not prove them wrong, but neither does it validate their claims.

OK...that is a very good answer/reply...I'm impressed...and I don't impress easily....except for one change...

theists cannot provide convincing evidence to support their faith.

theists cannot provide convincing evidence to support the parts of their faith that fly in the face of known science.

There...we agree.