A Gospel Challenge

[sonoman]

lol i dont know what to do with this kid. he read the first paragraph of an article and was like omgwoot they did a study on spirituality that means i'm right.

now lets take a little closer look at the article...again.

all quotes from sonomans' article posted on page 2.

ok in case you missed this point
number of serotonin receptors correlates inversley with subjects self-transcendence.
inverse means its proportional in an opposite direction which means that religious people have fewer receptors.

this study is saying that religious people have fewer serotonin receptors and have a "weak 'sensory filter'". so according to this study since religious people have fewer serotonin receptors and a weak sensory filter they accept religious world views.

please...please....please read an article before you post it for evidence of your point. i mean honestly i would be embarresed if i posted this making your claim it says the exact opposite of what your trying to argue.

What's your problem? More serotonin receptors mean less spiritual experiences. Brains with less serotonin receptors receive spiritual experiences. Higher levels of serotonin inhibit spiritual experiences. Those of us who have spiritual experiences, know that they are not your "usual" consciousness by any means. Something has to show up in the brain when these events occur to people who have them and right now, it looks like its levels of serotonin. As the research indicates, we are just scratching the surface of brain functioning. Who would have ever conceived there are marijuana and opiate receptors in the brain...

My point is, atheism is toast as a valid philosophy now that we know our human brains are hard-wired for spiritual experiences. That means to the wise that evolution or God, your choice, has decided spiritual experiences MEAN something to the human race in its evolutionary journey. Suck it up, atheists. Your day is done.

[Jack]

My point is, atheism is toast as a valid philosophy now that we know our human brains are hard-wired for spiritual experiences.

Atheism is not a position against spirituality. It's a position that states gods, as proposed by humans throughout history, are not validated or supported by any evidence. The gospels state that belief is by faith alone. Atheists find that unacceptable. Spirituality is a whole other issue.

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

Let's see how well you can listen...

Siddhattha taught that a man must be acquainted with the beliefs and religions of others as ignorance of them is not conducive to understanding.

Jesus taught that one should have compassion even on a religious holiday and should feed the poor and hungry.

Socrates taught that a man should strive toward the understanding and the mending of his own nature before condemning others for theirs.

which of these statements do you disagree with? If you say they are correct then you cannot be in opposition with them..

Why? Can you not be in opposition with something that you agree with? Is it not possible?

This is why you should never reject anything outright...because there will be

points you agree with and those you do not.

But what if the points that you disagree with far outnumber the points that you agree with?

If you understand this you cannot be atheist or theist.

Once you declare yourself to be one or the other you are both the same...you are both in need of that raft...both unwilling to cast it off even as you cross the river. When you finally reach a point in understanding you will no longer feel the need to label yourself to be this or that...you will no longer need to be a theist or an atheist you will just be.

Now, lets understand this correctly, are you saying that by declaring himself an Atheist, Jack also becomes a Theist? Is that what you are saying?

Here it is. The above "rational answer" that completely misses the point. Missing spiritual receptors or spiritual receptors not functioning or very weak= mental disability=left brain dominancy to point of rejection of right brain reception of spiritual phenomena= disability in holistic consciousness. Sorry, atheists. Luckily, you can still function in most places in society where spiritual consciousness isn't required.

And what places are those? Where in society is spiritual consciousness not {required?}

There, now I believe we have those in order. I'm denying nothing theistically beyond the fact that theists cannot provide convincing evidence to support their faith.

Are you saying here that you are not denying that there is a God?

2. Again, by examining the world, it is evident that there is {convincing evidence.} Just because the evidence does not convince you, does not mean that you can deny that it exists. It is evident that there are billions upon billions of people who are being convinced by something. But at the same time, you are free to continue to dismiss that evidence.

I'm not contending that I know anyone is wrong. I am saying that if they're right they ought to be able to convince me and everyone else of that. That they cannot does not prove them wrong, but neither does it validate their claims.

Then what are you contending? Question: By saying that if Theists are right, “they ought to be able to convince me and everyone else of that” right, are you not also saying, that the Theists’ inability to convince you, means that they are wrong?

In other words, by stating that if the Theists are right, “they ought to be able to convince me and everyone else of that” right, you are essentially saying that the rightness of an individual is dependent on their ability to convince you.

Now, if the rightness of an individual is dependent on their ability to convince you, then the wrongness of that individual must be dependent on their inability to convince you? Therefore, anyone who is unable to convince you is wrong.

OK...that is a very good answer/reply...I'm impressed...and I don't impress easily....except for one change...
theists cannot provide convincing evidence to support the parts of their faith that fly in the face of known science.
There...we agree.

Actually, Theists can provide convincing evidence to support the parts of their faith that fly in the face of known science. The fact that they are unable to convince some, does not mean that the evidence is not convincing. It just means that the evidence does not convince some. But we cannot continue to ignore the fact that there is evidence that has convinced and is convincing many.

[Diogenes]

Now, lets understand this correctly, are you saying that by declaring himself an Atheist, Jack also becomes a Theist? Is that what you are saying?

That is not what I said at all...I'm assuming Jack understood what I meant because he did not refute it.

Why? Can you not be in opposition with something that you agree with? Is it not possible?

No...you can be in opposition to that which you disagree and in agreement with that which you do agree...you cannot both agree and disagree regarding the same point.

But what if the points that you disagree with far outnumber the points that you agree with?

Then you do not disregard the latter based upon the former...throwing out the baby with the bathwater comes to mind.

Actually, Theists can provide convincing evidence to support the parts of their faith that fly in the face of known science. The fact that they are unable to convince some, does not mean that the evidence is not convincing. It just means that the evidence does not convince some. But we cannot continue to ignore the fact that there is evidence that has convinced and is convincing many.

Actually no they can't....you are confusing circumstantial evidence with convincing evidence...eg. I could very well provide enough circumstantial evidence in a court to justify a belief in god...but I could not prove there is a god and neither could you...

though you are welcome to try.

[loser]

I noticed the word 'nature' used as in "nature teaches us...". Nature doesn't exist, it's a made up word. What you mean when you say nature is 'creation'. Creation teaches us... If you substitute 'creation' everywhere you use 'nature', you will begin to have understanding.

People think 'religion' has it's origins in superstition. Nothing could be further from the truth. In reality, superstition has been derived from religion and religion was derived from science. Religion has its roots in scientific fact.

As intelligence continually deteriorates in the human species, man becomes more superstitious and less able to reason intelligently. In the beginning, man was incredibly smart. Now, not so.

In the KJV of the Bible, the word 'reason' can be found 69 times. In the BBE version, 199 times. God said, "Come, let us reason together...". A verse that PROVES God very much cares about us coming to Him with much more than faith is here:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

What is magic? It's incomprehensible science. Since God (a real being) possesses unimaginable power, it stands to reason that mankind has seen it as 'magic'. I have amazed many, many people with magic tricks which were, in reality, only chemical reactions not understood. Not magic, just science.

For example, according to science, we should be able to pass through walls or materialize and disappear at will. Why? Simply, because of the atomic nature of life. Yet, if you saw someone vanish out of sight or walk through a wall (sans door), you would think that it was a (magic) trick...that it could not be scientifically possible. Why? Simply because your scientific knowledge is primitive.

No, on the contrary, God can only be known by the mentally elite. If you deny the existence of God, it's only because your mind and/or understanding is limited. It's not a sign of intelligence to doubt God. In fact, it's the very opposite.

[bulldogsfiend]

What's your problem? More serotonin receptors mean less spiritual experiences. Brains with less serotonin receptors receive spiritual experiences. Higher levels of serotonin inhibit spiritual experiences. Those of us who have spiritual experiences, know that they are not your "usual" consciousness by any means. Something has to show up in the brain when these events occur to people who have them and right now, it looks like its levels of serotonin. As the research indicates, we are just scratching the surface of brain functioning. Who would have ever conceived there are marijuana and opiate receptors in the brain...

ok glad you see that the fewer serotonin receptors induces spiritual experiences.

According to statistics, the great majority of American brains seem to be thus receptive, thus indicating those in the small minority are deficient in full brain capabilities.

did a little research of my own. here is some research documenting evidence of some of the other conditions that may be linked to low or abnormal serotonin levels/receptors.
Depression The Chemistry of Depression
higher suicide rate http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...ticlekey=84760
Bulima http://www.medicinenet.com/bulimia/article.htm
Anorexia Anorexia Nervosa Symptoms, Signs, Causes, Diagnosis and Treatment by MedicineNet.com
OCD Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) Causes, Symptoms, Treatment and Diagnosis on MedicineNet.com

also many hallucinogenic drugs bond to the same receptors in the cells that serotonin bond with. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin

so with the above research on psychiatric disorders and the bonding with drugs, we add in your article about spirituality and it would to seem that spiritual notions are either a hallucination or a mental disorder.

My point is, atheism is toast as a valid philosophy now that we know our human brains are hard-wired for spiritual experiences. That means to the wise that evolution or God, your choice, has decided spiritual experiences MEAN something to the human race in its evolutionary journey. Suck it up, atheists. Your day is done.

well you
1 are confusing spirituality and theism.
2. are assuming that IF evolutionary history has programed us for sprituality that that means its true. evolutionary history has also given us the capability for xenophobia i guess that means, by your logic, that we should hate everyone not like ourselves
3. assuming that a study done of 15 people (yes the one you did only studied 15 people) is conclusive proof that atheism is done.

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

Spirituality is not necessarily a religious notion. Here's an older thread where spirituality was discussed.


http://www.volconvo.com/forums/philo...rituality.html

What is it then? If, as you say, that spirituality is not necessarily a religious notion, then what is it?

SPIRITUALITY: noun: 1 : something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such2 : CLERGY
3 : sensitivity or attachment to religious values4 : the quality or state of being spiritual

--->>
SPIRITUALITY

Religion is necessarily a spiritual notion. Many people's brains are receptive to spiritual phenomena. According to statistics, the great majority of American brains seem to be thus receptive, thus indicating those in the small minority are deficient in full brain capabilities.

Here, handicapped atheist person, have a light stick to find your way to Father.

...sorry, I are a bad Christian..

Actually, everyone is receptive to spiritual phenomena. So the problem is not that everyone is not receptive to spiritual phenomena. Instead, the problem is that everyone does not recognize some types and the same types of spiritual phenomena.

this is the last paragraph of the above quoted article. so according to this people with a "weak 'sensory filter'" are more likely to believe in religious world views. interesting a weak sensory filter means your more open to religious world views...glad i have a strong 'sensory filter'

And because, depending on your Position in Time your {strong} is actually {weak,} you have a sensory filter that still believes in religious world views; just not those believed by those who supposedly have a {weak} sensory filter .

Yep. Keep them mental barricades in place. Don't want to be caught thinking out side the box. Nuts and bolts and whatchacallits about covers everything ya need to know..if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist.

Actually, he has been caught thinking outside the box. That is, outside your box.

the mental barricades just came down when i rejected christianity in the last couple of years.

And it appears that you pulled down one barricade only to put up another one. .

because obviously not claiming religious experiences are true is the majority opinion of the last few millennia. seriously, wow.

It is.

[bulldogsfiend]

I noticed the word 'nature' used as in "nature teaches us...". Nature doesn't exist, it's a made up word. What you mean when you say nature is 'creation'. Creation teaches us... If you substitute 'creation' everywhere you use 'nature', you will begin to have understanding.

your arguing terminology here. nature and creation both describe the same thing, one with a scientific mindset, the other with a religious mindset. the sad thing about 'creation' is that it is so imperfect. there are so many flaws in creatures that evolution explains imperfections better than creation does, unless the creator was malevolent or imperfect himself. which both are not normally ascribed to a creator.

People think 'religion' has it's origins in superstition. Nothing could be further from the truth. In reality, superstition has been derived from religion and religion was derived from science. Religion has its roots in scientific fact.

think there is more evidence to support that religion developed because of a lack of science. would the greeks have sang praises to helio so that he would get in his chariot and pull the sun across the sky if they knew the earth revolved around the sun? i think not.

As intelligence continually deteriorates in the human species, man becomes more superstitious and less able to reason intelligently. In the beginning, man was incredibly smart. Now, not so.

evidence of this???? i dont think our intelligence has deteriorated but i would agree that our creative process have been crippled by our dependence on technology.

In the KJV of the Bible, the word 'reason' can be found 69 times. In the BBE version, 199 times. God said, "Come, let us reason together...". A verse that PROVES God very much cares about us coming to Him with much more than faith is here:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

i dont like arguing translation without a concordance around and sadly i cant find mine at the time. hope i dont have to buy another one...those things are expensive.

What is magic? It's incomprehensible science. Since God (a real being) possesses unimaginable power, it stands to reason that mankind has seen it as 'magic'. I have amazed many, many people with magic tricks which were, in reality, only chemical reactions not understood. Not magic, just science.

agreed chemistry is lots of fun and baffles many people.

For example, according to science, we should be able to pass through walls or materialize and disappear at will.

um..no. please do make assumptions like this without backing them up. this is a pretty big claim i'm physics major with a minor in chemistry, and i've never seen anything to support this.

Why? Simply, because of the atomic nature of life.

this is a misunderstanding of the atomic theory. to try and break it down the bonds that form between atoms forms somthing of a lattice. think like a grid made of steel for instance. if i have one grid (and it a grid is more empty space than solid matter just like the atomic thoery suggests.) and i tried to push another grid through it, it would not pass without breaking the first grid.

Yet, if you saw someone vanish out of sight or walk through a wall (sans door), you would think that it was a (magic) trick...that it could not be scientifically possible. Why? Simply because your scientific knowledge is primitive.

i would probably call a therapist to see if i need to be admitted...

No, on the contrary, God can only be known by the mentally elite. If you deny the existence of God, it's only because your mind and/or understanding is limited. It's not a sign of intelligence to doubt God. In fact, it's the very opposite.

Thats odd seeing as how the mentally elite normally shy away from trying to prove god. Even the very intelligent theist will say that it is a matter of faith. Not evidence or critical thinking that leads them to their belief.

[Jack]

Nature doesn't exist, it's a made up word. What you mean when you say nature is 'creation'.

No, that's what you mean. All words are made-up. That's not disputed. Creation (in this context) and nature are not synonymous.

As intelligence continually deteriorates in the human species

Even if you could substantiate this claim (which obviously cannot be done) it would only serve to invalidate your claim, as you would also be a victim of deteriorated intelligence as you claim we all are. I cannot fathom how anyone could think that people without the accumulated knowledge that we posses could be more knowledgeable. A believer of this nonsense would disdain all modern knowledge, wouldn't even use a computer since that's a product of our increased knowledge which they don't accept.

For example, according to science, we should be able to pass through walls or materialize and disappear at will. Why? Simply, because of the atomic nature of life.

A false conclusion based on a misunderstanding of atomic science.

[Jack]

Now, if the rightness of an individual is dependent on their ability to convince you, then the wrongness of that individual must be dependent on their inability to convince you? Therefore, anyone who is unable to convince you is wrong.

Anyone who is not able to convince me is unconvincing. It's up to them to show me they're right, not up to me to call them wrong.

What is it then? If, as you say, that spirituality is not necessarily a religious notion, then what is it?

It's a sloppy term that has been appropriated by religion. I know that by using it I'm inviting misunderstanding, which is why I specifically pointed out what "spiritual" means to me earlier. I would like to use a better word, but in English there isn't as comprehensive a term to use. For my purposes, the spiritual comprises the effects produced by our physical brain.

It is.

What kind of rebuttal is that?

[sonoman]

Anyone who is not able to convince me is unconvincing. It's up to them to show me they're right, not up to me to call them wrong.


It's a sloppy term that has been appropriated by religion. I know that by using it I'm inviting misunderstanding, which is why I specifically pointed out what "spiritual" means to me earlier. I would like to use a better word, but in English there isn't as comprehensive a term to use. For my purposes, the spiritual comprises the effects produced by our physical brain.


What kind of rebuttal is that?

"Atheism is not a position against spirituality. It's a position that states gods, as proposed by humans throughout history, are not validated or supported by any evidence. The gospels state that belief is by faith alone. Atheists find that unacceptable. Spirituality is a whole other issue."

Jack, you are sliding all over the place trying to wiggle out of the FACT that human brains are designed to receive spiritual experiences. Everyone but you now seems to know that "God" is perceived, sensory imput received via spiritual experiences. Now you want to make some sort of special definition of "spiritual" so that it really just means "emotional experience" of..of..of..of..of.yes, Jack? of..of..of.

Suck it up, man. Be a mensch. It's not so bad knowing your spiritually crippled if you can overcome your ego and rely on those who have more holistic brain functioning..

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

Thanks Mr M. I think most of those quotes only refer to intelligence (wisdom), but dont go as far as to encourage growth of intelligence, especially through critcal thinking. Remember, the topic in hand is praise of intelligence, not just mention of it.

I think your quotes from Proverbs comes closest, however I note it comes with one big condition

1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

1. Question: Is the parable of the unjust steward not a praise of intelligence? Is a commendation of acting wisely, not a praise of intelligence?

Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

2. Is the parable of the wise and foolish virgins not a praise of intelligence?

Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish.

Matthew 25:3 They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

Matthew 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Matthew 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Matthew 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, [Not so]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.


3. . How about this verse:

Proverbs 12:8 A man shall be commended according to his wisdom: but he that is of a perverse heart shall be despised.

Is that verse not a praise of intelligence?

Religion is a perversion of the human capacity for secular spiritualism.

Whether you realize it or not, you by your own words have condemned that which you champion. By saying that, “Religion is a perversion of the human capacity for secular spiritualism.” you have essentially stated that secular spiritualism is a perversion of the human capacity for secular spiritualism.

Mr M, religion is not a part of nature.

Then what is it a part of? Where outside of nature did it come from? Where is its home? If it did not come from nature, then please show us all where it came from?

Walk me through a park and point out religion to me.

Walk us through a park and show us all where there is no religion?

Religion is a man-made contstruct, it's a set of rules and guidelines for your spirituality.

And? How does the fact that religion is a {man-made construct} preclude it from being a part of nature? Or how does the fact that religion is a set of rules and guidelines for spirituality preclude it from being a part of nature?

Now, if you are of the mind, that being a man-made construct precludes religion from being a part of nature, then where does a {man-made construct} come from? Is it not from man? Where does man come from and where does he reside? Does he not come from nature? Does he not reside in that same nature? If being a {man-made construct} precludes religion from being a part of nature, then please show us the place that is outside of nature where religion comes from? Where is that place?

Now, are there no set of rules and guidelines to be found in nature? Is nature totally devoid of such things? And yet still, where does man receive his rules and guidelines? Do they not come from his nature? And if they do not come from his nature, then please show us all where they come from? Show us all this magical place that is outside of man’s nature where man‘s rules and guidelines come from.