Reason for Denial of God (non science based)

[ironeagle]

I have come to the concluison that there are several intellectual reasons for people to deny the existance of God or of a higher power. There are, of course, the scientific reasons, the only true reason being science cannot prove God exists( according to non believers), which means they cannot prove God does not exists(according to believers), but mental reasons to disbelieve are predominate in this world as well. Here is my list of fesible reasons why people may deny God's existance or who may also attempt to change the word of God, change bible passages or the like in ways which suits them better.

1. People who commit sins against God, who do not want to face the fact they may be held accountable by God, may have to pay a sentence, may not go to heaven etc. so these people may decide to discredit God because they want to be free to live their sin without believing their will be consequences.

2. Sinners may want others to deny God so that those other people might also choose to deny God and deny that certian acts are sinful, and therefore if they dscredit God these others, they have converted, will accept their sinful behavior.

3. Some people choose to disagree with or dislike Gods Rules his laws or his chosen path for us, therefore if they deny he exists they may live without fear of their death and what punishment may come for abandoning god, because in their mind God cannot be a threat anymore if they believe he does not exists.

4. Some may choose to continue to believe in God but may beome wolves in sheeps clothing, preeching false bible stories and false ideas, and changing bible passages to allow thenselves to find a way to make their sins, not sins anymore.

5. Some may also deny god out of fear that a religious group may gain more power than the government.

6. Many people stop believing in God just because a child or loved one dies, believing God is responsible for their death, not accepting God's promise to allow the people of the earth free will, even if that free will means a child is hit by a driver who chose to drive drunk that night.

I am sure there are many more reasons like this, which is why I think so many people try so hard to discredit God. No one will ever be able to do that, not today not ever. Here's the question why do people like the above examples try so hard to ruin it for others who do believe? Not all Christians are opressors and not all Christian values are wrong or opressive in fact most promote and protect rights, life, and good conduct. It seems to me like the sinners who do not want to face God as their father and that daddy has some rules for your own good, are fighting him so they can justify and excuse their irresponsibilities and sins. This is why I think most gay people do not believe in god, or try to change biblical texts, this is why I think many people who abort their children do not believe in God, this is why I think people who want more than one wife ignore the real biblical texts for ones created by one man many many years ago, with a pen and paper.

[Jack]

I am sure there are many more reasons like this, which is why I think so many people try so hard to discredit God.

All these scenarios, like the quote above, presume the existence of god. Atheists do not make that assumption. It is an unproven claim, a baseless supposition, an unrealistic perception of reality. Those reasons are all logical, reasonable and most importantly, substantiated with a massive amount of evidence.

The majority of theists will agree that there's no evidence for their beliefs. They consider that to be a reenforcement of their belief and call it "faith". Others of us have a standard of evidence that religion cannot meet. It fails several philosophical tests.

Denying god, hating god, loving god, knowing god; all presume that god exists, and usually the god of Abraham. Love him or hate him, god exists; that's the assumption made by theists.

Atheists see no reason to make that assumption. It presumes a reality that has not yet been established as existing. It's an assumption that skips over the fact that not everyone agrees with that interpretation of reality. First convince me your god exists, then we can talk about what I think about that.

I get email from Nigerians who promise me that I can become a millionaire if I'll just share my bank account info with them. I delete them all without opening. Why? Because I know they're bogus, attempts to convince me of a false reality. How do I know that? A hundred different ways. I've read about them, I've read them and it's obvious to all but the most new of the newbies that they are scams. Plain and simple, they're scams. And you know, I bet most of the theists reading this would agree.

So why should religion be considered in a different light? What exempts religion from skepticism, from doubt, from an honest request for substantiation? Why should religion be immune from dismissal?

In my life, religion has been dismissed as a scam, an attempt to compromise my ability to think for myself. And thinking for myself saved me from falling for those phoney emails. That was a good thing.

[triad]

not accepting God's promise to allow the people of the earth free will, even if that free will means a child is hit by a driver who chose to drive drunk that night.

Funny, you say god promises to allow the people of earth free will - yet you also say he must be accepted otherwise you are committing a 'sin'.


Face it - the evidence that you have accepted is totally and unbelievably false. The bible is a large book of contradictions, you can't use the term 'free will' and then next to it say "Some people choose to disagree with or dislike Gods Rules his laws or his chosen path for us" if there is a chosen path then what is the point of free will? If we are allowed the ability to think totally free and ill of some sort of control, why does god have rules and laws?

Because he doesn't exist in this way...


Open your eyes, your trapped inside of this idea and fail to notice the blatant obvious. Whoever tells you these rules is trying to change the way you think... and therefore limiting your ability to think freely. You have faith that you were given free will, yet you accept commandments that limit it?

[bulldogsfiend]

God is All-Powerful
God is All-Knowing
God is All-Loving

These are common traits given to the Judea-Christian God. I say that one or more of these must be false. There is the obvious possibility that God does not exist, in which case all three would be false, but I do not want to go there just yet so for the sake of argument lets assume that the Judea-Christian God does exist (or any God who is ascribed these traits as an omnipotent deity.)

Observe the world around us without going to far we encounter the problem of bad things happening to people. Whether it is a woman getting raped, a father getting murdered, wars being fought for who knows why, a natural disaster that wipes tens possibly hundreds of thousands of people out, our epidemics such as aids and cancer that are killing people indiscriminately these bad things are happening.

I say that a God that had all three of these traits would not allow these sorts of things to happen. He either knows about these things and truly cares but is not powerful enough to stop them, or he can stop them but he does not know about them, or the truly scary idea is that he knows and he can stop them...but he does not care.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: ironeagle I have come to the concluison that there are several intellectual reasons for people to deny the existance of God or of a higher power. There are, of course, the scientific reasons, the only true reason being science cannot prove God exists( according to non believers), which means they cannot prove God does not exists(according to believers),

Incomplete. We cannot prove god exists, but we have proven the things that the god hypothesis directly contradicts. That means "god exists" is false.

1. People who commit sins against God, who do not want to face the fact they may be held accountable by God, may have to pay a sentence, may not go to heaven etc. so these people may decide to discredit God because they want to be free to live their sin without believing their will be consequences.

I've truly never understood this mindset. It's like saying, "I'm in high school and I believe in a principal. I'm smoking in a classroom. I don't want to get detention for this. So I'll deny the existence of the principal who enforces the rules... who I need to believe in to have the rules that are causing me to disbelieve him... wait, what?"

2. Sinners may want others to deny God so that those other people might also choose to deny God and deny that certian acts are sinful, and therefore if they dscredit God these others, they have converted, will accept their sinful behavior.

I call those people theists. Let me read a few more and then reply to all these. I see a disturbing theme here...

3. Some people choose to disagree with or dislike Gods Rules his laws or his chosen path for us, therefore if they deny he exists they may live without fear of their death and what punishment may come for abandoning god, because in their mind God cannot be a threat anymore if they believe he does not exists. 4. Some may choose to continue to believe in God but may beome wolves in sheeps clothing, preeching false bible stories and false ideas, and changing bible passages to allow thenselves to find a way to make their sins, not sins anymore. 5. Some may also deny god out of fear that a religious group may gain more power than the government. 6. Many people stop believing in God just because a child or loved one dies, believing God is responsible for their death, not accepting God's promise to allow the people of the earth free will, even if that free will means a child is hit by a driver who chose to drive drunk that night.

Yup. That's what I thought. These seem to be culled directly from Sunday school. They are exactly what I'd expect from preachers or Christians trying to understand why people don't believe in god. Rather than doing the honest thing and asking them, they make up their own reasons... which are nonsense. I know of no atheist (and I've talked to more than you'd think possible) who actually believes anything like that. It's utter trash.

To give you an idea of how silly your points are, I will provide you with the other side of the coin so you can truly experience what I just went through in reading the above.

Here are some reasons why rational people end up believing in god:

1) They don't really believe, but are scared that there could be a hell so they go to church every Sunday hoping that they're wrong about hell.

2) They actually know deep down that there is no god, but don't want to offend their relatives and grandparents so they keep going to church / pretending to believe.

3) All Christians are really just stupid people who don't know any better and get tricked into believing.

4) All Christians are emotionally weak people who need the emotional crutch of Christianity to get them through their day.

All of these are crap. The first one implies all Christians are really atheists scared of hell, the second one implies they're just going through the motions, the third implies they're morons and the fourth implies they're emotional cripples. All these are false and reading them you should be insulted that anyone would even imply something so ignorant.

That's about how I felt when I read your list.

[Jinei]

Quote by: ironeagle 1. People who commit sins against God, who do not want to face the fact they may be held accountable by God, may have to pay a sentence, may not go to heaven etc. so these people may decide to discredit God because they want to be free to live their sin without believing their will be consequences. 2. Sinners may want others to deny God so that those other people might also choose to deny God and deny that certian acts are sinful, and therefore if they dscredit God these others, they have converted, will accept their sinful behavior. 3. Some people choose to disagree with or dislike Gods Rules his laws or his chosen path for us, therefore if they deny he exists they may live without fear of their death and what punishment may come for abandoning god, because in their mind God cannot be a threat anymore if they believe he does not exists. 4. Some may choose to continue to believe in God but may beome wolves in sheeps clothing, preeching false bible stories and false ideas, and changing bible passages to allow thenselves to find a way to make their sins, not sins anymore. 6. Many people stop believing in God just because a child or loved one dies, believing God is responsible for their death, not accepting God's promise to allow the people of the earth free will, even if that free will means a child is hit by a driver who chose to drive drunk that night.

All of these (except 5, see below) assume that the person believes in God in the first place. This doesn't make any sense.

5. Some may also deny god out of fear that a religious group may gain more power than the government.

That boat has already sailed.

[ironeagle]

That is exactly what I am saying the types of people listed in my first post are usually people who once had faith in God's existence, until they wanted to sin without fear, or until they were mad at God and didn't understand him, then they choose not to believe for the reasons I mentioned. God does not make cancer did it ever occur to you the person with cancer caused it themselves, and death by the wya is Gods mercy to a tortured child or murder victim, their soul sent to heaven to live in paradise with him. In the bible god says he cares nothing for your physical body, but for your soul. This is the reason he gives you the choice to follow his path. He also says he is a selfish God, and I am not at liberty to require him to come answer, why some children have to suffer, or die, or why he has rules and yet gave us free will. You can choose to use science to deny his existence, but some do not do it solely on science evidenc eor lack thereof, they do it because thye don't like the bible. Just because you don't like a rule doesn't mean the police don't exists. It is about faith and trust and belief, but I also know that if I do die, and there is nothing after I won't know the diference but if there is I know I have lived a life that was worthy of God's love and worthy of living in paradise by his side. In addition I would just like to point out even if you choose to dismiss god the being, there happen to many morales and values and helpful information in the bible which teaches people, especialy in the old days before microbiology and science technologies, how to be sanitary to cook food properly not to wear moldy clothes, all these teachings designed to keep people from getting food poisoning, sicknes and infection. Even if you do not believe in god you can still choose to follow the bible teachings about treating others with respect and so on and so forth. I'd like to hear from a member who has joined a church that decided to pslit from a traditional church and changed the teachings to suit their need to ignore the bible. Anyone? Or how about a perosn who lost a loved one then decided god didn't exist? Any takers?

[Jack]

Even if you do not believe in god you can still choose to follow the bible teachings about treating others with respect and so on and so forth.

Of course you can, just as you're free to follow any good advice you come across. The difference is that we don't take that advice as the word of a unsubstantial supernatural being.

[davedes]

I was never a religious person, but I believed in God when I was younger. Now I'm an atheist -- "god" simply doesn't jive with reality any more. A single king of the multiverse? An animate and intelligent being that answers each of our selfish prayers? It sounds like fantasy to me now.

[bulldogsfiend]

Quote by: ironeagle That is exactly what I am saying the types of people listed in my first post are usually people who once had faith in God's existence, until they wanted to sin without fear, or until they were mad at God and didn't understand him, then they choose not to believe for the reasons I mentioned. God does not make cancer did it ever occur to you the person with cancer caused it themselves, and death by the wya is Gods mercy to a tortured child or murder victim, their soul sent to heaven to live in paradise with him. In the bible god says he cares nothing for your physical body, but for your soul. This is the reason he gives you the choice to follow his path. He also says he is a selfish God, and I am not at liberty to require him to come answer, why some children have to suffer, or die, or why he has rules and yet gave us free will. You can choose to use science to deny his existence, but some do not do it solely on science evidenc eor lack thereof, they do it because thye don't like the bible. Just because you don't like a rule doesn't mean the police don't exists. It is about faith and trust and belief, but I also know that if I do die, and there is nothing after I won't know the diference but if there is I know I have lived a life that was worthy of God's love and worthy of living in paradise by his side. In addition I would just like to point out even if you choose to dismiss god the being, there happen to many morales and values and helpful information in the bible which teaches people, especialy in the old days before microbiology and science technologies, how to be sanitary to cook food properly not to wear moldy clothes, all these teachings designed to keep people from getting food poisoning, sicknes and infection. Even if you do not believe in god you can still choose to follow the bible teachings about treating others with respect and so on and so forth. I'd like to hear from a member who has joined a church that decided to pslit from a traditional church and changed the teachings to suit their need to ignore the bible. Anyone? Or how about a perosn who lost a loved one then decided god didn't exist? Any takers?

This is the same rhetoric they fed me in sunday school. out of those of us who dont believe there are also people who applied logic and reason and came to the conclusion that the god described in the bible is illogical and unreasonable.

[Zhavric]

Normally, I ignore posts like the one below or write them off by mentioning something about preaching instead of debating. I'm in a mood today, so I'm going to offer my rebuttal.

Quote by: ironeagle That is exactly what I am saying the types of people listed in my first post are usually people who once had faith in God's existence, until they wanted to sin without fear, or until they were mad at God and didn't understand him, then they choose not to believe for the reasons I mentioned.

Except that those people don't exist. They don't.

They're myths.

Fairy tales.

They hang out with Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster.

They don't exist. Likely they never did. They've been invented by Sunday school preachers to try to help you feel better about why people go atheist. It's part of a campaign of misinformation about atheism that's been going on for a long time. They no more exist than the people I mentioned in my post. You know... the post you didn't reply to?

God does not make cancer

Wait, what?

When the hell did we get to CENSORED cancer? What could that possibly have to do with our discussion. Furthermore, you cannot place limits on your god and walk away without sounding like a raving lunatic. We're talking about a god who kills cities of people at a time, slaughters firstborns who did nothing to deserve their murder, and turns people to pillars of salt because he feels like it. We're talking about a god that murdered the entire population of the planet save for an arc full of people and you want... you actually want us to think that CENSORED cancer is out of character for him??? You have got to be kidding me. This is just more evidence that you Christians don't really pay much attention to what you actually believe in.

did it ever occur to you the person with cancer caused it themselves,

Are you talking about people who smoke two packs a day and end up with lung cancer? Please tell me you are. Please tell me you're not so far gone that you'd actually believe that everyone who has cancer did it to themselves.

This is the reason he gives you the choice to follow his path. He also says he is a selfish God, and I am not at liberty to require him to come answer, why some children have to suffer, or die, or why he has rules and yet gave us free will.

This is called indoctrination. It's a type of programming. It's a way to get you sold on a scam before you're old enough to know better (as in childhood indoctrination) or from a time of emotional weakness. To be sure, intelligent rational people don't just start spouting nonsense on this level. They need to be duped into it somehow.

You can choose to use science to deny his existence, but some do not do it solely on science evidenc eor lack thereof, they do it because thye don't like the bible.

Nope. You're wrong.

My utter contempt for the idiocy that is the old and new testament has little to do with my knowledge that the god hypothesis is critically flawed. The more science one knows, the more one is able to see the proverbial man behind the curtain (or lack there of). The earth isn't 6000 years old. We aren't descended from a dirt named Adam and a rib named Eve. Jews don't ride inside whales. Dinosaurs didn't hang out with men. The first thing in the universe wasn't light. The list goes on and on.

Just because you don't like a rule doesn't mean the police don't exists.

Just because you're nice doesn't mean Santa is hard at work at the North Pole on your Christmas toy.

Now stop preaching and debate if you're able.

[isaone]

Quote by: ironeagle I have come to the concluison that there are several intellectual reasons for people to deny the existance of God or of a higher power.

No you are wrong none of these are 'intellectual ' reasons at all . None of them contain any reasonable logic that could be called intellectually sound. Everyone of these is an emotional statement.

Ironeagle, I have heard these all before and in my opinion everyone of these is designed to help the believer defend their basic undefendable position ("My God Exists !!" ) . Basically the believer has three choices

1. I believe because my evidence is intellectually solid and that solidity is supported by all of these people who agree with my arguments because they can find no logical flaws
2. I believe but all of these other smart people have very sound arguments that seem to be logical. However I will ascribe to them a set of underhanded hidden reasons that they are choosing not to believe thus my belief is really more reasonable then theirs
3. I believe but I must admit there is no reasonable evidence for said belief.

Since #1 fails every time and most people are not willing to go with #3, they have no choice but to turn to #2. That is all that you have done in this post.

Please stop projecting on to Atheists the kind of twisted misleading logic that you have had to accept to rationalize your own beliefs. We really are as simple as we state. I do not believe because there is no reason do do so !

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: IronEagle That is exactly what I am saying the types of people listed in my first post are usually people who once had faith in God's existence, until they wanted to sin without fear, or until they were mad at God and didn't understand him, then they choose not to believe for the reasons I mentioned.

Horsesh!t.

The types of people you listed are purely your inventions, hypothetical possibilities designed to confirm your own belief in the rightness of believing in God. Name anyone anywhere who is on record as believing any of your inventions.

If I decided to not believe in Gawd because I thought it would allow me to get away with stuff, then that means I still believe that God creates right and wrong.

EXAMPLE: "1. People who commit sins against God, who do not want to face the fact they may be held accountable by God, may have to pay a sentence, may not go to heaven etc. so these people may decide to discredit God because they want to be free to live their sin without believing their will be consequences."

How does one "discredit God" unless they still believe in him/her/it.

I don't believe for a second that God determines what's right and wrong, EVIDENCE #1 being that the basic rules of morality... thou shalt not murder, steal, lie, disobey your parents, commit adultery, etc. etc. are universal to almost every religion or religious philosophy on earth...

...including mine, which completely denies the existence of any gods, demi-gods, spirits, spooks or such like. As far as I'm concerned, believing in God is no different than believing in Zeus, Thor, the Great Bear Spirit, Valhalla, Forest Elves, Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy.

The whole premise of this thread is self-serving nonsense, with no interest whatsoever in actually knowing why people don't believe in your god.


“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” -- Stephen Roberts

.

[Nocebo]

Quote by: ironeagle This is why I think most gay people do not believe in god, or try to change biblical texts, this is why I think many people who abort their children do not believe in God, this is why I think people who want more than one wife ignore the real biblical texts for ones created by one man many many years ago, with a pen and paper.

Keep your thoughts to yourself unless you have statistics that prove correlation, and only then can you argue for causation...

Quote by: Zhavric This is called indoctrination. It's a type of programming. It's a way to get you sold on a scam before you're old enough to know better (as in childhood indoctrination) or from a time of emotional weakness. To be sure, intelligent rational people don't just start spouting nonsense on this level. They need to be duped into it somehow.

The proper term is CHILD ABUSE

[ironeagle]

I don't have to keep my thoughts to myself I can talk about all my thoughts all I want what are you going to do about it? These people aren't mythical, that's rediculous, people who were faithful christians one day decided god wasn't real because a loved one died, or set out to create laws and bibles, and rules in conflict with god's word to try to justify their sins. Just because you have a different reason for not believeing all of which so far have been only based on lack of scientific proof, doesn't mean these others do not exist. I suggest if you don't like to read about the bible that you don't enter a religous topic then go to a debate about how god is not real intead.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: ironeagle I don't have to keep my thoughts to myself I can talk about all my thoughts all I want what are you going to do about it?

I'm going to dispel your illusions of adequacy.

These people aren't mythical, that's rediculous, people who were faithful christians one day decided god wasn't real because a loved one died, or set out to create laws and bibles, and rules in conflict with god's word to try to justify their sins.

Eagle, this is a debate site. If you choose to simply keep parroting the same reply that you've given before then all you're doing is reinforcing the stereotype that Christians are intellectual cripples incapable of debate. I know that's not true in spite of what you've proffered here. My advice to you is to either start debating or stop posting. If you think that repeating the same defeated argument over and over is doing anything but lowering our opinion of your debate skills you are sorely mistaken.

Just because you have a different reason for not believeing all of which so far have been only based on lack of scientific proof, doesn't mean these others do not exist.

Please provide 5 examples of these individuals. Be sure to provide web links to their testimonials. Do this on your next post or concede that you or someone else has invented them.

[triad]

Quote by: ironeagle I don't have to keep my thoughts to myself I can talk about all my thoughts all I want what are you going to do about it? These people aren't mythical, that's rediculous, people who were faithful christians one day decided god wasn't real because a loved one died, or set out to create laws and bibles, and rules in conflict with god's word to try to justify their sins. Just because you have a different reason for not believeing all of which so far have been only based on lack of scientific proof, doesn't mean these others do not exist. I suggest if you don't like to read about the bible that you don't enter a religous topic then go to a debate about how god is not real intead.

You keep saying that people abandoned their faith when a loved one died, however most Sunday schools and Bible Camps teach you that your that faith will not make sense until a loved one dies.

They say that because they know that when someone loses a loved one, they are vulnerable. Their faith will 'comfort' them - unfortunately it is with lies and deception.


You are not only preaching to us about something you know nothing about, but you are blatantly going against your own words.

Basically, you and your argument have failed to show any sort of competence in this topic.

[Jack]

Of course people act irrationally, some rejecting their former belief while others are accepting belief, after the death of a loved one. Decisions based on emotion are often reconsidered after the emotion dies down. I would not consider a decision made in the midst of an emotional crises to be the best decision. Any guy who has stormed out of the house after an argument with their significant other knows what I mean.

It appeared in the OP you were trying to say these were the only reasons people reject the notion of god. In that case you're incorrect. But those may be factors for a few.

For me, the rule issue couldn't be less relevant. I don't worry if I'm breaking the rules of Islam or Thor worship. Why would I care that I'm considered in violation of the rules in a game I don't play?

[Derach]

Ironeagle,

People who used to be what you would term 'faithful Christians' don't become atheists for the reasons you put forth. They don't shun god out of anger or do it to justify a behavior. Most come to an intellectual awakening for the reason Zharik said. Some have a bad experience with a religious leader and it makes them question their faith.

[ShootingFish]

Hello there, I would first like to say that i have been inspired to register to this site to take part in this debate.

Now, it seems to me as though the main direction that everyone is heading in is that of religion. However, it is my belief that God or a higher power of some sort is a seperate entity from the "church".

Would anybody else agree that the church (in my opinion a thing that exists to make its leaders rich) is seperate from God/Higher Power?