Topic for debate

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by Apologist, Lot's family didn't escape over the mountains. Lot asked the angels if they could stay in a near by city. Your theory sounds similar to that of Aliens Vs Predator. I was a little disapointed with that movie but oh well. Too many holes in the theory, like Moses parting the Red Sea. Jesus Christ born from the virgin Mary, is another. I like your imagination though. I doubt aliens would use earth in any way except for habitation. Meteors, asteroids, moons, and other planets have pleanty of material resources, unless the aliens are stealing our trees and water. :) LDS, try and keep up with the discussion. Its hard for me to answer all the questions.

I was just thinking if she was looking back she was leaving the city in question during a journey to another place. Be the journey over a mountain, or through some hills in the desert, is not all that important enough debate about. One person's hill is anohter person's mountian. But if I am wrong thanks for pointing out that "hole". The idea of angels is just as far-out as the idea of aliens. I did not see that movie.

Perhaps LDS or a Bible expert can say if she was killed during a journey or while at another city?

The idea about gold was used mainly because of biblical texts puts importance on that material. Like when the Lord told his profit "The gold and the silver is all mine". And because of King Solomon's Mines (gold mines), etc.

I do not know if the moon or Mars has any gold in them there rocks, but do not recall hearing about it. But even if so the aliens would want to look here because they can live here better then on Mars (cause we got trees).

Technosoul.

[Technosoul]

Now I wish to return to the original topic of this chain-of-messages before the wayward sons got lost on a journey into another topic.

I had put forth the logical and confirmed knowledge that the Bible is in fact the "tree of knowledge between good and evil" (knowledge about right and wrong).

I pointed out that the mind consumes knowledge just like the body can consume an apple.

Now if the Bible is seen as the foremost authority about good and evil (aka right and wrong, truth and falsehood) then it is like the Last Supper, and you are what you eat. So if you eat the Bible (learn the knowledge) then you become that authority. You become like a walking-talking bible and have the illusion that you know right from wrong (moral standards) based on that research. Now you have become like the gods knowing right from wrong.

Then that knowledge results in what is called a fat ego because we will use that knowledge to judge one another as a god would judge us. In other words the knowledge causes the mind to puff up with a sense of self-righteousness.

Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent with that new fould abiltiy of becoming judgemental. So what happens when you read the Bible is you can have this phychological shift where you think you are above others in your knowledge because they did not study the Bible like you did. Soon people are stoneing each other with the apples from the tree (meaning they stone each other with verse and chapter) in order to win a debate, and religious wars can result also because of the judgemental attitude that reading the Bible can cause in the human mind. These facts can be confirmed by historical events and just by reading the many debates here at this forum.

Because they read the Bible (consumed the tree of knowledge about the difference between good and evil) they feel evelvated as the experts and everyone else is viewed as being stupid or ill-informed sinners.

So that is why Adam (mankind) was told not to partake of that kind of knowledge. But like Lot's wife they looked anyway and their spirit became blinded to the reality of what it is to be a true human.

So those are some additional details in support of the ideas in the first post for this message chain. Other posters have avoided debating that idea in favor of debating if we should believe in a god or not, and how mean he is or is not, which has nothing to do with the topic presented, in my judgement.

Technosoul.

[LDS]

Technosoul, interesting except Adam's fall was a planned mistake.

I'll explain when i have the time. Try this.
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=t...;fn=default.htm

[Samildanach]

Heres my theory on the whole apple and tree of knowledge thing.
God didn't want Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge because he knew it would start the human race on the knowledge addiction.
Now man is addicted to gaining new knowledge and god now knows everything about everything. He knew man would eventually become like him if he ate from the tree and he does not desire that for anyone. Living for all eternity knowing everything about anything he chooses, no excitement, no spontaniety, no company as he knows whatever anyone could possibly think or do before they do it. Gods bored and looking for ways to create some spontaniety, its his final and only challenge he has left in his existence that explains why human culture is so diverse and fucked up. Hes hoping something unexplainable or spontaneous will happen that he won't know about, it also explains our abnormal growth rate as a species, hes hoping to create so many of us he may have trouble keeping track of everyone finally creating situations he may actually have to learn about later.
It just goes to show you can create a theory about just about anything....sigh.

[orgaelin]

Sammy, I think you hit the nail on the head!

Imagine it: you're a completely omnipotent being who not just understands infinity but is the very embodiment of it. There is nothing but eternal existence, and you can simultaneously see the beginning and end and everything in between of all time. Where's the fun in that?!

Being 'everything' there is, there would be no-one or -thing else to interact with or anything.

I have to say that would probably be worse than hell. At least in Hell you'd have something to think about.

But how about this idea: if you have total consciousness and were constantly aware of everything, wouldn't you think it a good idea to split your mind up into multiple consciousnesses that *weren't* aware of everything, and that were somehow separate?

But you'd make each one a part of you, like the Trinity, but with a lot more than three! Each of us would be a slice of God.

And at first you'd probably make them live forever like yourself, but before long you realise that they're going to get bored of everything after they've done it all a hundred or a thousands times. Even love would get boring...

So let them die. Not only seperate your mind into little minds, but let each one of them die every now and again, and let them think they are starting a new life, that they can experience a new 'first kiss' or first love.

I know that if I was responsible for the design of the human experience as we know it, that is the way I would have done it if I was in God's shoes.

[orgaelin]

Technosoul,

I think you're right, this topic is all over the place!

I like what you have to say. The forbidden fruit was the knowledge of right and wrong from which we would begin to judge. Judgement is a very wrong thing, as, like you said, it leads only to bad. Mis-judgement is more common than judgement!

I really think that's spot on. If I was creating my own race, I think I would want to save them from that one thing - the judgement of each other.

Really, only someone who could see and know all things could morally sit in judgement.

You know what makes me laugh? Actually it makes me mad too, but here goes anyway:

In Britain and probably the US too, you are expected to do Jury Duty and decide whether a suspected criminal is guilty or not. Before they let you do it, they expect you to swear you'll be truthful.

Now in these liberal days we can just swear by something simple, so as not to discriminate against us if we are not Christian. But if you are a Christian they present you with the good book, on which you place your hand and swear by it, and by god, that you will tell the whole truth, the full truth, etc... blah blah blah.

So they make you swear on the book which says inside words to the effect of "Thou shalt not swear on even a single hair of your head, for only God has the power to change its colour..." (proves it was written before hair-dye was invented!) and goes on to say you shall not swear on this, that, the other, or pretty much anything. The bible says you MUST NOT SWEAR on ANYTHING.

And so they swear on the bible! HELLO?!?!?!

Hypocrisy is a disease, and Christianity is the most infected carrier.

[orgaelin]

Originally posted by kellbing, In my opinion, the stories such as Lot's wife in the bible were written by church elders and the like as a way to strike fear into people and convince them to obey without question whatever "god" supposedly tells them to do.

Well the Old Testament is a bit older than that. Early bible stories are mostly unnaffected by the ill-intentions of modern church leaders. Certain aspects of the bible can clearly be seen to have suffered from the bias of those telling the stories.

The Hebrews were very certain of the lower status of women, and I really don't know how any woman can read the bible and still feel happy about serving a god who views her as having such a low status.

Of course a real god would never do so. The whole idea of Eve coming from Adam's rib, of man being firstborn, of woman being the first to sit, etc. is all just a way of feeble men asserting control.

It comes down to psychology. The fact is simple: men are weak because they have very strong sex drives. Women, because of our needs, have control over us. This is why both sex and women are looked upon as such low orders of things in history, and the bible.

It's not just the sex either. We are raised by our mothers, and learn from a very early age to depend on the love of a woman. So women have a power over our hearts and our balls that we don't have over theirs. Sexual equality and women's rights is just a modern game. FACT: women control the world already, from the smallest family to the greatest centres of leadership. It's a woman's world.

And no, I'm not a woman!

In modern times, back to the subject at hand, the Roman Catholic church has been responsible for all sorts of lies. The church itself is founded upon the Donation of Constantine, which has now been proven to be a fake. 2000 years of corrupt Popes have given Humanity the bloodiest and filthiest record on Human rights we will ever know. Literally millions have died as a direct and indirect result of the dominion of the Catholics. Millions of books and great stores of Human learning, our very history, have been burried and burned to prevent us from knowing that the bible is not the only source of truth. Even today people are still being burned alive as suspect witches*, and the church still efforts to prevent new information about real history from becoming common knowledge**.

* there is a site I can't recall the name of, but it explains how christian missionaries travelled the globe, spreading the Good News and the bible, and then left the tribal communities to work it out for themselves. They still live by "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" because they know no better - only what the Christians told them.

** There is a book called "The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception", by Michael Baigent and David leigh (I think that's their names) which details the Catholic plot to take over the translation efforts and keep the true contents secret from the world.

[kellbing]

Orgaelin,

That is a wonderful perspective! Sort of makes one think about the song "What if God Was One of Us".

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by orgaelin, Technosoul, I think you're right, this topic is all over the place! I like what you have to say. The forbidden fruit was the knowledge of right and wrong from which we would begin to judge. Judgement is a very wrong thing, as, like you said, it leads only to bad. Mis-judgement is more common than judgement! I really think that's spot on. If I was creating my own race, I think I would want to save them from that one thing - the judgement of each other. Really, only someone who could see and know all things could morally sit in judgement. You know what makes me laugh? Actually it makes me mad too, but here goes anyway: In Britain and probably the US too, you are expected to do Jury Duty and decide whether a suspected criminal is guilty or not. Before they let you do it, they expect you to swear you'll be truthful. Now in these liberal days we can just swear by something simple, so as not to discriminate against us if we are not Christian. But if you are a Christian they present you with the good book, on which you place your hand and swear by it, and by god, that you will tell the whole truth, the full truth, etc... blah blah blah. So they make you swear on the book which says inside words to the effect of "Thou shalt not swear on even a single hair of your head, for only God has the power to change its colour..." (proves it was written before hair-dye was invented!) and goes on to say you shall not swear on this, that, the other, or pretty much anything. The bible says you MUST NOT SWEAR on ANYTHING. And so they swear on the bible! HELLO?!?!?! Hypocrisy is a disease, and Christianity is the most infected carrier.

Yeah, like what Jesus said about not praying outload in public, how many follow that suggeston? Funny that a non-beliver who stopped prayer in schools was really in agreement with Jesus and the churches were not.

Funny thing about the Justice system, you swear to tell the "whole truth" but then the judge makes you answer "yes" or "no" so that you cannot answer the question with a logical explaination in greater detail, thusly giving the jury a false impression concerning the "whole truth" by just saying yes or no.

Technosoul.

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by LDS, Technosoul, interesting except Adam's fall was a planned mistake. I'll explain when i have the time. Try this. http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=t...;fn=default.htm

My "theory" would not reject that point. Who planted the tree of knowledge between good and evil? Who do they say "wrote" the Bible through the profits?

Technosoul.

[Technosoul]

Originally posted by Samildanach, Heres my theory on the whole apple and tree of knowledge thing. God didn't want Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge because he knew it would start the human race on the knowledge addiction. Now man is addicted to gaining new knowledge and god now knows everything about everything. He knew man would eventually become like him if he ate from the tree and he does not desire that for anyone. Living for all eternity knowing everything about anything he chooses, no excitement, no spontaniety, no company as he knows whatever anyone could possibly think or do before they do it. Gods bored and looking for ways to create some spontaniety, its his final and only challenge he has left in his existence that explains why human culture is so diverse and fucked up. Hes hoping something unexplainable or spontaneous will happen that he won't know about, it also explains our abnormal growth rate as a species, hes hoping to create so many of us he may have trouble keeping track of everyone finally creating situations he may actually have to learn about later. It just goes to show you can create a theory about just about anything....sigh.

That is an interesting alternative interpreation and worthy of concideraton.

But why only the knowledge about good and evil became taboo where as he told Adam he could partake of all the other trees (any other kind of knowldege?), plus the mention about a "tree of life".

Technosoul.

[orgaelin]

Originally posted by Technosoul Funny thing about the Justice system, you swear to tell the "whole truth" but then the judge makes you answer "yes" or "no" so that you cannot answer the question with a logical explaination in greater detail, thusly giving the jury a false impression concerning the "whole truth" by just saying yes or no.

Hey that's a good one. I'm going to use that in court if ever I need to!!

~ Org.

[Technosoul]

I was thinking the same thing Org.

I would just flat out tell the lawyer if I cannot explain the whole truth and must say only yes or no then I must withdraw my oath (vow to tell the whole truth). Looking the jury right in the eyes so they would not think I was avoiding the question.

I would do it my way.

Technosoul.