Happiness

[GSM:Xtreme]

"True happiness can only be realized through absolute freedom." Do you agree or disagree? I agree with it 100%.

If you agree with that, here's a quote came up today in lunch you may find interesting, while discussing the illuminati. "Freedom can only be achieved in death." Unfortunatly, I also agree with this statment.

So the disturbing part, can true happiness only be achieved in death? Note, I do not believe in an afterlife paradice or anything. Scary thoughts surly, but if you agreed with the first two quotes, can you reject my point?

[Jack]

"True" happiness. Hmmm. Sounds a bit absolute and ideal. I strive daily for relative happiness. At least I can enjoy that.

[ItsDarts]

I disagree with the first premise, as Jack pointed out, Happiness isn't an absolute, it is relative as far as I can tell. The second statement would then appear to be a moot point. While I agree you would be free (from what?) you would not know it as I don't beleive the mind is separate from the brain. When the brain dies, so does mind, therefore "you" wouldn't know anything. From someone elses living perspective, "you" may appear free, but again, "you" will not know, so its pointless to attempt to achieve that freedom by means other than the natural course of events of living.

Epicurus said something to the effect.... I do not fear death because during life, I do not know death, and in death, I will not know life.

Its the process of death that scares me, and that process is called life. I fear the final moments of the process leading to death. I don't want those final moments to be in pain, but ultimately, I'm afraid that most will experience pain just before death.

And yes, I agree, it is a rather creepy subject. :)

[orgaelin]

GSM,

I personally do not agree with the first statement. In fact, your question(s) also imply that absolute happiness is something we should be aspiring to, with which I also disagree.

See, if I give someone a gift then it makes them happy. In order for that to happen, they have to not have had that item in the first place. Now that gift might not be as simple as a piece of jewellery. What if the gift being given was a heart for a child who desperately needed a transplant? The recipient and his family would be almost immeasurably happy. BUT, that happiness relies on the patient having a heart problem in the first place - they certainly wouldn't be happy if you gave a heart to someone who was fine and healthy!

The more obvious argument is simple story-telling - every story has to have something bad happen for it to be entertaining. Otherwise what's the point of a happy ending?

My point is that you don't want to be always happy, because that too is an absolute, and absolutes suck, to be frank. For happiness, there must also be sadness.

The exact same thing applies to freedom. If there is nothing to be free from, there is no freedom.

As for the second quote, that freedom can only be achieved in death, I would also disagree. You might well say that death does provide absolute freedom, but you could also argue that it is absolute constriction. If I were to invent a prison that could freeze time within a room, and place you inside, preventing you from even thinking, much less moving, then that would be total imprisonment, and also, experientially, indistringuishable from death.

[Yasa]

I agree with ItsDarts regarding what death is 'like' and am in a kind of agreement that it doesn't make sense to say equate freedom and death. However, the quote is a very eerie and tempting idea to think about.

I am in full agreement with what orgaelin said regarding the relativity of happiness and freedom. After all, if sadness didn't exist, neither would happiness. If we were absolutely free in all senses then we wouldn't know it because there would be nothing to measure our freedom against.

That being said, there will always exist 'non-freedom' in the world, so I completely agree that the most freedom possible is a necessary component to happiness.

Heh, this thread makes me thing of some lines I wrote a few years ago.

0

In search of a place;
A place with perfect purple forests,
Azure streams both hot and cold.
A place of peace and of conflict,
Of meaning and of feeling.

In search of a time;
A time when myth reigned,
And magic filled the air.
A time when there was zero gravity,
Zero worry, zero doubt, and filled with zero zeros.

In search of everything;
Everything immaculately flawed;
Everything fearful and loving;
In search of a place that doesn’t exist.

My quest is incomplete,
But I can imagine success.
It’s waiting just beyond—just out of reach.
It all comes down to this shot—this breakaway.
I am checked by the last defender: impossibility.

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: GSM:Xtreme "True happiness can only be realized through absolute freedom." Do you agree or disagree? I agree with it 100%. If you agree with that, here's a quote came up today in lunch you may find interesting, while discussing the illuminati. "Freedom can only be achieved in death." Unfortunatly, I also agree with this statment. So the disturbing part, can true happiness only be achieved in death? Note, I do not believe in an afterlife paradice or anything. Scary thoughts surly, but if you agreed with the first two quotes, can you reject my point?

Very thought-provoking question!

I tend to disagree with the statement "true happiness can only be realized through absolute freedom". One would have to know sadness to recognize happiness. Therefore, that qualifier would have to be stated. Also, our single purpose of this earth, procreation, and the care of our offspring thereafter, prevent "absolute freedom".

Regarding freedom only being achieved in death . . . that statement cannot be definitely proven to be true or false. Perhaps death is a binding, torturous, everlasting ordeal? Who knows for absolute sure? Therefore, for this debate, I will exclude it as a plausible argument.

I would have to disagree with both statements.

Nice post.

[orgaelin]

Hi Katie,

Our single purpose on this earth is procreation?! What about gay people, or people who are infertile, are they just utterly pointless?!

I agree with you to a degree, inasmuch as that's part of the game, but there are other reasons to be playing too.

Perhaps if you went a bit broader and instead of saying we're here just to reproduce, how about: our purpose is to 'survive'? That way you include procreation, which is necessary for survival, but you also include everything else is which aids survival, like happiness, making other people happy.

Lots of other things come into it too, such as learning, because the smarter we are, the better we are able to survive.

Also, you kind of implied that caring for our offspring was a barrier to freedom. Am I safe to assume that you don't have children yourself? I have four, and while they may often restrict ones actions, what you gain from your children is at least equal to any restrictions imposed.

~ Org.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: GSM:Xtreme "True happiness can only be realized through absolute freedom." Do you agree or disagree? I agree with it 100%. If you agree with that, here's a quote came up today in lunch you may find interesting, while discussing the illuminati. "Freedom can only be achieved in death." Unfortunatly, I also agree with this statment. So the disturbing part, can true happiness only be achieved in death? Note, I do not believe in an afterlife paradice or anything. Scary thoughts surly, but if you agreed with the first two quotes, can you reject my point?

Happiness is related to one's satisfaction of a desire or wish. It is possible to have happiness in sound healthy painless mind and body only. Then since one never gets all the wishes fulfilled, question of true happiness (If it is meaning absolute ) is not even theoritically possible. See, to have desire to get absolute happiness itself is a desire, which never gets fulfilled. How is true happiness possible ?

Coming to state after death, nobody has come to know that, so telling true happiness after death is possible to attain again is out of question to apprehend. However, happiness works beyond physical body such as in dream so might occur even in bodyless state after death.

Then, concluding happiness is always relative compared to sorrow as pointed out by Jack. Also hapiness/sporrow is possible in dream, it might be possible even after death if lifes after death exists.

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: orgaelin Hi Katie, Our single purpose on this earth is procreation?! What about gay people, or people who are infertile, are they just utterly pointless?! I agree with you to a degree, inasmuch as that's part of the game, but there are other reasons to be playing too. Perhaps if you went a bit broader and instead of saying we're here just to reproduce, how about: our purpose is to 'survive'? That way you include procreation, which is necessary for survival, but you also include everything else is which aids survival, like happiness, making other people happy. Lots of other things come into it too, such as learning, because the smarter we are, the better we are able to survive. Also, you kind of implied that caring for our offspring was a barrier to freedom. Am I safe to assume that you don't have children yourself? I have four, and while they may often restrict ones actions, what you gain from your children is at least equal to any restrictions imposed. ~ Org.

You are absolutely right. I generally use the statement that our purpose is to ensure the survival of our species. But, my wording wasn't the best and thank you for pointing it out.

[Nocebo]

Quote by: GSM:Xtreme So the disturbing part, can true happiness only be achieved in death?

Valid inference, but with false premises.

Quote by: Jack "True" happiness. Hmmm. Sounds a bit absolute and ideal. I strive daily for relative happiness. At least I can enjoy that.

I agree, no emotion is absolute. Time desensitizes us to any strong feeling. Like drugs.

Quote by: ItsDarts Epicurus said something to the effect.... I do not fear death because during life, I do not know death, and in death, I will not know life.

1. Death is not bad for the victim before death.
2. Death is not bad for the victim after death.
3. Thus, there is no time at which death is bad for the victim.
4. Thus, death cannot be bad for the victim. (source)

Quote by: orgaelin For happiness, there must also be sadness. The exact same thing applies to freedom. If there is nothing to be free from, there is no freedom.

Nice distinction. Opposites define each other. Without one, there wouldn't be the other. But are we talking about concepts or the facts of reality?

Are we literally saying that without sickness, there would be no health?

Quote by: orgaelin Our single purpose on this earth is procreation?! What about gay people, or people who are infertile, are they just utterly pointless?!

They aren't pointless, but they are biologically purposeless. But you have to take this with a grain of salt, because it is just an anthropomorphism. Natural selection is often characterized metaphorically as some conscious-driven, wide-scale feat of engineering. It does resemble engineering, because it is the only passive process in which how good something works is the direct cause of how it came to be. This "purpose" comes from the metaphorical description of evolution as engineering, and its parts are given a purpose in continuing its process. In that sense, metaphorically, our purpose is to survive and replicate.

[Jack]

What I strive for in my life, even more than happiness, is to be at peace with myself and my life. There have been many events in my life that the memory of which don't bring happiness but I have learned to be at peace with them, to accept them as events I can't change or wish away.

I suspect it's what gives value to religious confession. It doesn't change the past, it allows you to accept it and be at peace with the past.

[Nocebo]

Quote by: Jack What I strive for in my life, even more than happiness, is to be at peace with myself and my life.

for some reason that reminds me of a quote by C.G. Jung... "I'd rather be whole than good." Hm.. don't have time to explain got to sleep *yawns*

[barts]

In the immortal words of Kris Kristofferson, "Freedoms just another word for nothin left to lose."

[loser]

Our single purpose on this earth is procreation?! What about gay people, or people who are infertile, are they just utterly pointless?!

Instead of "pointless", did you mean "useless"?

Or, instead of "utterly" you might have meant "udderly"...

[loser]

Freedom is overrated and ill-defined. Individual freedom diminishes the freedom of others. Let's eliminate freedom and bring back slavery. Only with slavery can true happiness be found.

If interested in a life of slavery, contact me @ IOwnYou.com. Or PM me to arrange obedience training. Come on, you know you want it...

[davedes]

I agree that I will only achieve 'true' happiness in death. I plan to lead a relatively happy life in the meantime, though.