Are there good things that only Theists do ?

[isaone]

Christopher Hitchens has an offer . THe question is ;

Name me one positive/good thing that has been done by a person for religious reasons but cannot or has not ever been done by someone for non religious reasons ?

The point is very simple

1. We all agree that there are bad things that have been done in the name of religion
2. There are no good things done in the name of religion which cannot be done for non religious reasons
3. Therefore the argument "religion is good because of the good works" is not a valid one

[Nocebo]

I'd like to modify number three's statement:

Therefore the argument "religion is better than secularism because it causes good works" is not a valid one.

Yeah, the irrational causal link between atheism and immorality has been one that has stood the test of time because of constant generational inculcation. Well, until recently.

Here's a caption from Wikipedia's article on Atheism:
'"A child of the mob once asked an astronomer who the father was who brought him into this world. The scholar pointed to the sky, and to an old man sitting, and said: 'That one there is your body's father, and that your soul's.' To which the boy replied: 'WHAT IS ABOVE US IS OF NO CONCERN TO US, and I'm ashamed to be the child of such an aged man!' O WHAT SUPREME impiety, not to want to recognize your father, and not to think God is your maker!" Emblem illustrating practical atheism and its historical association with immorality, titled "Supreme Impiety: Atheist and Charlatan", from Picta poesis, by Barthélemy Aneau, 1552."

[wyoguy]

Repent

[Nocebo]

Quote by: wyoguy Repent

Let bygones be bygones. Accept the fact that the past is unchangeable, and no amount of suffering (guilt) will change that unchangeable fact.

[HelioPrime]

Abstain fro sex and spend your life under a vow of silence serving in some remote location spending all your day in prayer.

There are many of examples I could think up but they'd depend on how were defining "good" and how one is supposed to act and be seen as good.

From a secular standpoint spending your time in only prayer instead of being productive to society would probable be seen as bad so I'm guessing Mr. Hitchens won't take any answers that involve service or prayer or any other action that might be deemed as a waste of time by a secularist.

[Nocebo]

Yeah the definition of good is ambiguous. Then again, so is morality. Everyone categorizes what is best for society and what isn't, and their categorization is as different as their values (and their ability to decide the best course of action to actualize those values).

This question cannot be answered objectively, because their isn't an objective morality.

But everyone agrees with certain values. I guess that makes them objective, so we could go from there.

[Nocebo]

Abstaining from murder:
Religious reasons: God told me "Thou shalt not kill." God also told me the Golden Rule.
Secular reasons: I would go to Jail. Reciprocation is the logic behind the Gold Rule. I would feel bad. I would be socially ostracized. The benefit doesn't outweigh the risk.


Abstaining from stealing:
Religious reasons: God told me "Thou shalt not steal or bear false witness."
Secular reasons: I'd go to Jail. I'd be socially ostracized. Reciprocation is the logic behind the Gold Rule. I would feel bad.

dull topic... the point is that there is rationality behind morality, ergo religion isn't necessary insofar as we are aware of that logic.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: wyoguy Repent

Zen one word posting? You're on.

Untrue.

[wyoguy]

I thought you'd like that, Thanatos.

Now try this one...

Believe

[Derach]

If religion provides the motivation for one to do 'good deeds' ... that should be encouraged. If some kids are urged to learn about service, sacrifice, loyalty or other 'good' traits through a church youth group or a secular event, both are equally important and neither course should be eliminated or discouraged.

Therefore ...

Just because secular approaches can produce equally beneficial results as religious ones, the fact that some people attribute selfless acts of charity to religious belief is reason enough to warrant recognition of religion as an important societal institution.

[rez]

Quote by: HelioPrime Abstain fro sex

You don't think there are people out there that avoid sex to make relationships less confusing and complicated?

and spend your life under a vow of silence serving in some remote location spending all your day in prayer.

Thats not really impacting another person like what the topic asked for.

However, ordinary people that are not religious try to keep their mind clear of thought in silence in order to relax day to day.

From a secular standpoint spending your time in only prayer instead of being productive to society would probable be seen as bad so I'm guessing Mr. Hitchens won't take any answers that involve service or prayer or any other action that might be deemed as a waste of time by a secularist.

LOL, you suck at understanding what a secularist thinks. The idea of prayer has nothing to do with what the topic asked about. And as I pointed out, non-religious clear their mind in silence all the time. The difference is that normal people don't add in ghosts goblins and demons to the process.

[rez]

Quote by: Derach If religion provides the motivation for one to do 'good deeds' ... that should be encouraged. If some kids are urged to learn about service, sacrifice, loyalty or other 'good' traits through a church youth group or a secular event, both are equally important and neither course should be eliminated or discouraged. Therefore ... Just because secular approaches can produce equally beneficial results as religious ones, the fact that some people attribute selfless acts of charity to religious belief is reason enough to warrant recognition of religion as an important societal institution.

Nice try but no. Kids need to know the real reasons for things and how they really work.

There are ways of making kids understand empathy without using ghosts goblins, and spirits.

[wyoguy]

Quote by: rez There are ways of making kids understand empathy without using ghosts goblins, and spirits.

What... like "do unto others as you'd have done to you"?

[Jack]

What... like "do unto others as you'd have done to you"?

Exactly. There's nothing religious in that statement. It could easily be reworded into: "How would you feel if someone did that to you?"

[Aussie]

So let me get this straight, before religion, humanity was incapable of morality until 2000 years ago Jebus showed us the way?

[wyoguy]

Quote by: Jack Exactly. There's nothing religious in that statement. It could easily be reworded into: "How would you feel if someone did that to you?"

Could it be reworded into: "love your neighbor as yourself"?

[SoylentGreen]

HelioPrimeAbstain fro sex and spend your life under a vow of silence serving in some remote location spending all your day in prayer.

While relying on others to provide food and any other basic needs. Sounds like a parasite not a holy man.

[Nocebo]

Quote by: wyoguy Could it be reworded into: "love your neighbor as yourself"?

In my interpretation, that wasn't a command as much as it was an observation.
He was literally saying that we love eachother inasmuch as we love ourselves.

Someone is cruel in large part because they lack self-esteem. They dont like themselves, and feeling inferior, they try to make everyone else feel inferior as well. They see their own inadequacies in other people and none of their strengths. On the other hand, somone with high self-esteem wants to do nothing but give it away.

As Jung said, perception is projection. Frikkin Jesus's psychological insight was 1900 years ahead of his time!!

[SoylentGreen]

NoceboFrikkin Jesus's psychological insight was 1900 years ahead of his time!!

No, the bible and jesus are only a recent copy of ideas that have been around for far longer
Ancient History Sourcebook: The Tale of The Eloquent Peasant, c. 1800 BCE

"Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, A remarkable appreciation of the rights of the common people is revealed in this story, which has come down to us in copies made before 1800 B.C

[Derach]

Quote by: rez Nice try but no. Kids need to know the real reasons for things and how they really work. There are ways of making kids understand empathy without using ghosts goblins, and spirits.

I disagree. Whatever motivations serve people to do 'good things' is valuable. If a spiritual man feels compelled because of his belief in God to help his fellow man, that motivation is just as valid as an atheist who wants to help society for non-religious reasons. What matters is the result of the action, not the motivation for it. Different people are motivated differently ... the fact that religion motivates many people should be encouraged. (doesn't motivate me, but I see the benefit of religiously motivated charity on others)