Crucified frog stays, whatever the Pope thinks

[SoylentGreen]

Crucified frog stays, whatever the Pope thinks - 29 Aug 2008 - NZ Herald: World / International News

A sculpture of a crucified frog threatened with eviction from Bolzano's new modern art museum after being condemned by the Pope, the Minister of Culture and local right-wing politicians, is staying where it is. The work, by the late German artist Martin Kippenberger, shows a lurid green frog, warty and bug-eyed, nailed to a cross with its tongue hanging out - but holding a foaming tankard of beer in one hand and an egg in the other. Exhibited in the inaugural exhibition of the new Museion in the centre of the German-speaking city in Italy's far north, it was said by the museum curators to be a self portrait of the artist "in a state of profound crisis". Then the broadsides began. Franz Pahl, the president of the regional council, said the work was "not art, but a blasphemy and a disgusting piece of trash that offends many people"."Yesterday, Sandro Bondi, the Minister of Culture in the central government, joined the chorus of condemnation. The work, he said, "wounds the religious feelings of many who see in the cross the symbol of the love of God". Mr Bondi recently said that he did not understand modern art.

This is the latest of this type of controversy, but not the only example
Her is another.

* NZine * The Virgin Mary And Condom

One of the most emotive issues in New Zealand at the moment ( note this is from 1998) is the displaying of an 'art work' at the Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa (unfortunately there are no pictures on the Web site). It is basically a statuette of the Virgin Mary with a condom pulled over it. This has outraged the Catholic community here who see it as a denigration of one of their most sacred icons, to the point where the curator has received threats of extreme violence. The Catholic Church does not, of course, condone the threats but it shows the depth of feeling that this exhibit has provoked.The museum now finds itself in a precarious position as it decides whether to continue to exhibit it or not. On the one hand the Catholics, as well as other Christian based religions, have every reason to feel aggrieved. For them the exhibit associates the purity of the Virgin Mary (who after all is believed to have had a divine conception and virgin birth), the mother of Jesus (whose beliefs form the basis of their religion) with a symbol of sexual depravity (sex outside of marriage being sinful).

The debate here is

Whether or not you are a follower of the Catholic religion, do they not deserve to have respect for their beliefs and the symbols of their faith? I'm sure we can all find something that we hold to be true and fundamentally sacred to our lives that we would not appreciate being denigrated in a similar fashion. Would we not also feel compelled to vigorously protest and stand up for what we believe in so as to protect something so important to us from further attack?

or

On the other hand there is at stake one of our fundamental freedoms as a democratic society and that is freedom of artistic expression. ....' it could be said that one of the functions of contemporary art is to challenge the way we think. In this way society can be progressive rather than stagnating in the unchallenged status quo. There are plenty of examples of repressive societies in history where freedom of artistic expression was one of the first freedoms to go, As to the way this ( and the frog) exhibit can challenge us to think - it can be equally argued that the condom is a symbol of health especially in the age of AIDS but also as protection against other sexually transmitted diseases. It is a symbol of taking responsibility for your actions in advance, and for taking responsibility for your own health. The combination of the condom and the Virgin Mary could symbolise the tension between the rules and morals of a religion and the urges of its young people not only to experience the freedom of experimentation but also to act responsibly while doing so. The combination of these two powerful symbols of protection, one physical and one spiritual, could also be seen to be a message to the Church and the Pope as to their equal relevance in these times, and for the need for continued debate over the issue of condom use as much (if not more) for the health protection of the wearer as for birth control. It may become an issue at the heart of the continuing survival of the Church given the fact of declining numbers of younger churchgoers for whom the teachings of the Church are in conflict with the realities of life for them.

[Matt]

There is the right for people to make whatever kind of art they wish. Certain groups may dislike it, but they can't ban it. At least these examples of Christians aren't as extreme as the stupid Muslim rampage about the cartoons.

[Jack]

This reminds me of the recent dustup over PZ Myers' "desecration" of a Eucharist wafer. Theists seem to be taking their "graven images" too seriously. Matt's right, their whining over the disrespect shown to their symbols sounds an awful lot like the Muslim's moaning over those cartoons. To my mind they're betraying their own doubts over the reality of their beliefs. Were they confident in their faith, these artistic and scientific "blasphemies" would be ignored or laughed off. Is their god so petty that he gets enraged at these stories, or is their faith so fragile that it can't withstand satire? It's much like feeding internet trolls; reacting the way they are just gives the story more traction (not that I think that's a bad thing).

[Thanatos]

The frog with the beer stein and an egg is definitely art. Rebirth, alcohol, pain, religion. I see the symbolism.

Quote by: Matt At least these examples of Christians aren't as extreme as the stupid Muslim rampage about the cartoons.

Define stupid. The Quran says in no uncertain terms that you can't draw the prophet and to do such a thing is one of a short list of truly unforgivable sins. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you can't put a condom on the Virgin Mary :)

[Jack]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say you can't put a condom on the Virgin Mary

It's in the Apocrypha, Trojans 5:38 "And when you go down into the valley of those who revere the idol of the virgin, clothe thee not the virgin in sheep gut."

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: Jack It's in the Apocrypha, Trojans 5:38 "And when you go down into the valley of those who revere the idol of the virgin, clothe thee not the virgin in sheep gut."

WTF is that suppose to mean? Why would any body cover the image of the virgin, metaphorically or literally, in sheep gut?

[Thanatos]

Quote by: SoylentGreen WTF is that suppose to mean? Why would any body cover the image of the virgin, metaphorically or literally, in sheep gut?

Before latex, condoms were made out of other stretchy yet durable materials. You can still buy sheepskin ones but they're only recommended for people who are allergic to latex and not common.

[Jack]

Sometimes I forget how young some of you are.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: Jack Sometimes I forget how young some of you are.

I am not that young or that old either.
Are you saying you remember the good old days when a man would gut a sheep for a woman .
And it still doesn't answer the question. Why on earth would any one want to cover the virgin mary in an sheep gut condom back in the past. Some kind of vandalistic joke or someones sense of art or what?

[gallo]

Quote by: SoylentGreen I am not that young or that old either. Are you saying you remember the good old days when a man would gut a sheep for a woman . And it still doesn't answer the question. Why on earth would any one want to cover the virgin mary in an sheep gut condom back in the past. Some kind of vandalistic joke or someones sense of art or what?

I guess you didn't hear the WHOOSH as the point sailed over you head. Do you actually understand the concept of a condom? Who wears them, men or women? Before latex, what do you think they were made from?

[gallo]

Quote by: Jack Sometimes I forget how young some of you are.

Ain't that the truth.

[ShadowFox]

Some may be young, but we know of many, many things.

But we're getting off topic

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: gallo I guess you didn't hear the WHOOSH as the point sailed over you head. Do you actually understand the concept of a condom? Who wears them, men or women? Before latex, what do you think they were made from?

I do understand the concept of condoms, and I know that man has been very inventive in the protection racket.
But what does this statement actually mean?

Apocrypha, Trojans 5:38 "And when you go down into the valley of those who revere the idol of the virgin, clothe thee not the virgin in sheep gut."

The way I am reading it, it says don't put a condom on the idol of the virgin. Not, don't wear a condom yourself.
Why would an ancient people be concerned that someone would drape a condom on an idol?
gallo , you ask who uses a condom , but the only way i can make sense of this is that a woman ( usually referred to as virgin) might use sheep gut as some kind of inter uterine cap.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: SoylentGreen I do understand the concept of condoms, and I know that man has been very inventive in the protection racket. But what does this statement actually mean? The way I am reading it, it says don't put a condom on the idol of the virgin. Not, don't wear a condom yourself. Why would an ancient people be concerned that someone would drape a condom on an idol? gallo , you ask who uses a condom , but the only way i can make sense of this is that a woman ( usually referred to as virgin) might use sheep gut as some kind of inter uterine cap.

Poor soylent. This has gone too far.

Trojans is not a real Bible book. It's a brand of condoms. The Christians have no scriptural prohibition against desecrating holy symbols and so don't even have a bad excuse for death threats.

The artistic symbolism of putting a condom over a miniature Virgin Mary statue eludes me. Mary is a dick? A...hedonistic dick? Its designed to make Catholics mad, probably for the sole purpose of generating controversy and giving one artist a bit of public exposure for $20 of materials and 15 seconds of work. Gallo if you see more symbolism I'm curious too.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: Thanatos Poor soylent. This has gone too far. Trojans is not a real Bible book. It's a brand of condoms. The Christians have no scriptural prohibition against desecrating holy symbols and so don't even have a bad excuse for death threats..

Very funny . That's what i get for being lazy and not looking up the answer for myself.

The artistic symbolism of putting a condom over a miniature Virgin Mary statue eludes me. Mary is a dick? A...hedonistic dick? Its designed to make Catholics mad, probably for the sole purpose of generating controversy and giving one artist a bit of public exposure for $20 of materials and 15 seconds of work. Gallo if you see more symbolism I'm curious too.

Although I go with the "it's a cheap trick" theory, the artist gives a more profound reason for why he did it.

....the condom is a symbol of health especially in the age of AIDS but also as protection against other sexually transmitted diseases. It is a symbol of taking responsibility for your actions in advance, and for taking responsibility for your own health. The combination of the condom and the Virgin Mary could symbolise the tension between the rules and morals of a religion and the urges of its young people not only to experience the freedom of experimentation but also to act responsibly while doing so. The combination of these two powerful symbols of protection, one physical and one spiritual, could also be seen to be a message to the Church and the Pope as to their equal relevance in these times, and for the need for continued debate over the issue of condom use as much (if not more) for the health protection of the wearer as for birth control. It may become an issue at the heart of the continuing survival of the Church given the fact of declining numbers of younger churchgoers for whom the teachings of the Church are in conflict with the realities of life for them.