Procreation fading?

[Sinner]

HelioPrime Catherine the Great died from being trampled by a horse she had sexual escapades with. What a role model

This of course is a lie having historical basis in some pornographic movie.

I must warn you that telling such lies about Christian Monarchs is a terrible heresy of rebellion against people especially blessed by Holy Spirit. May I inform you that:
"To those who deny the divine right of Orthodox kings and all who dare to stir up insurrection and rebellion against them, Anathema thrice!"

Calam Salvation is a personal choice, regardless of the circumstances. You could be born into a drunken orgy and grow up in a whore-house. The opportunity for salvation remains. Whether or not someone decides to 'get saved' is based on their personality, not their circumstances. If it were somehow guaranteed that your child would go straight to hell no matter what, then I could relate to your reasoning. But there is no reason to believe that.

I agree fully. Salvation is a personal choice. The only problem is, today only insignificant minority of people make the choice to be saved.

tfox_60 I suspect that 90-95% of the people who decide to get saved, have parents who decided to get saved. 90-95% of those who choose not to get saved, have parents who didnt decide to get saved.

Salvation is very rare indeed even among true Christians.

[rez]

Quote by: Zhavric Can't find the video on youtube now, but it was titled something like "why liberals are dying out". It showed a middle class couple sitting on a couch in a nice living room discussing how they want to wait a few years to have kids now that they're married. It cuts to a trailer park with two rednecks yelling at each other. A couple. The woman is holding a baby and pregnant with another. Cut back to the couple with the caption "5 years later". They explain why they're still waiting. Cut back to the rednecks. Still in the trailer. Still yelling at each other. Now there are least 3 kids under the age of 5 and the wife is still pregnant. You get the idea.

I am guessing that was from the movie "Idiocracy",

[Calam]

today only insignificant minority of people make the choice to be saved.

"Insignificant minority"? Come on. There are hundreds of millions of Christians all over the world. That's a big minority. And as for people making the choice... If you read the Bible, you'll see the story of the farmer sowing seed. And only 1/4th of the seed sown actually produced crop. Jesus made that statistic 2,000 years ago, and it hasn't changed.

Salvation is very rare indeed even among true Christians

What the heck does that mean? Are you watching the counter on the turnstile to hell? Do you measure the tickets of the number of people making it into heaven? How can you possibly know?

[tfox_60]

Quote by: Calam What the heck does that mean? Are you watching the counter on the turnstile to hell? Do you measure the tickets of the number of people making it into heaven? How can you possibly know?

Arent the tribes of Israel limited to 144,000 in Revelations? or something like that.

[Sinner]

Calam What the heck does that mean? Are you watching the counter on the turnstile to hell? Do you measure the tickets of the number of people making it into heaven? How can you possibly know?

It says directly so in the Gospel.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The Holy Tradition reconfirms it - majority will perish. Mind you this is only applicable to those who are part of The Holy Apostolic Church (The Orthodox Church). Those that are outside of the Church are a lot less likely to be saved.

[Calam]

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And so this is reason to stop reproducing?

Mind you this is only applicable to those who are part of The Holy Apostolic Church (The Orthodox Church). Those that are outside of the Church are a lot less likely to be saved.

Oh yeah, I forgot that one verse in the book of Morons 6:12-- "And all ye who aren't a part of the body of the Orthodox Church are not true Christians."

[Barnicals]

Quote by: orgaelin There was a spoof film made about this very question. I can't quite recall the name, but basically the introduction to the movie explained that humanity had descended into a state of utter stupidity in the future. As you say, the smart people waited till later in life to have children, and it's a biological truth that the longer you leave it the less fertile you'll be and the less healthy your offspring. Meanwhile the 'intellectually challenged' went on breeding like bunnies, and over the course of many generations the entire human race became utterly stupid. And so look on the bright side (sarcasm) - there'll always be Catholics!

It was called Idiocracy, starring Luke Wilson (?). I thought it was depressing and hilerious... But not altogether impossible. Just not to that degree.

And yeah, Catholics. YAY.

Moving on. I think I would like to have one, maybe two kids one day, but I'm not in any rush. I agree with the whole overpopulation issue.

[Dan_77]

Quote by: Barnicals It was called Idiocracy, starring Luke Wilson (?). I thought it was depressing and hilerious... But not altogether impossible. Just not to that degree.

Not to what degree? I think it's pretty easy to observe that humankind is in a state of reverse evolution. The poorest, worse-off, most unfit to survive in our world have many, many children, while the best off have usually no more than 2.

[Barnicals]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Not to what degree? I think it's pretty easy to observe that humankind is in a state of reverse evolution. The poorest, worse-off, most unfit to survive in our world have many, many children, while the best off have usually no more than 2.

Not to the degree that there are landfill landslides and the president of the US is an ex pro wrestler. That said, 7 times Mr Universe, known affectionately as Arnie, became a governer for CA.

But not to the degree that people think that energy drink is better than water for plants. Lets hope.

[Nocebo]

Quote by: Zhavric Can't find the video on youtube now, but it was titled something like "why liberals are dying out".

that version was renamed. the theme was the rising proportion of really stupid kids born. politics weren't even mentioned. the version i saw was on ebaumsworld, btw.

Quote by: Calam Salvation is a personal choice, regardless of the circumstances. You could be born into a drunken orgy and grow up in a whore-house. The opportunity for salvation remains. Whether or not someone decides to 'get saved' is based on their personality, not their circumstances.

It has been proven that personality is to a significant degree influenced by genes. It is also proven that your past influences your future choices by generating thought patterns and other mental dispositions. Your culture also plays an incessant role in your day-to-day decisions. Personality, circumstances, and culture... all play an extreme causal role in future decisions... but like Jesus said, to understand is not to forgive; so you don't need to deny causation to deny culpability...

Sinner is only saying that the chances for salvation are relatively lower (and low enough for him). You aren't factoring in my stated confounding variables, and you aren't assessing probability, which is why you disagree.

If it were somehow guaranteed that your child would go straight to hell no matter what, then I could relate to your reasoning. But there is no reason to believe that.

You are thinking in black-and-white. He is assessing the likelihood, and you are assessing the determination - while at the same time thinking that he is as well (when he isn't). Do you understand the difference? Do you understand that you just set up a straw man?

See here:

Quote by: Sinner Hell is the result of life in this world, is it not? The world today makes salvation highly improbable. So I believe it is cruel to bring my children here for ethernal suffering.

Although his statement are inconsistent (in the first, he is determining, in the second he is qualifying the likelihood), I think it's safe to assume that the first sentence was a hyperbole and his argument is: since there is such a low chance for any child to be saved during our time, i will do my kid, who's soul is still with God, a favor by doing what i can do to abstain his birth until a ...safer time.

(as an atheist, I think it's funny... I know my biological purpose is to procreate, and that's liberating to me. I'll feel no guilt if my son converts to Christianity, but doesn't get saved, because I'll disagree with his premise.)

There is really nothing objectionable about it. He's not saying that everyone should act as he does. It's just his subjective decision (albeit assertively proclaimed), even though his assessment is pretty on par with reality (secularism's influence is growing.)

[Nocebo]

I do think procreation is fading, at least in the middle class. The rich have no resrictions in this area of life, to be honest, and the poor don't have the sense to abstain from having children in the interest of financial security and independence. Only does the middle class have both the restriction and the judgement. Only is the middle class (currently doctors and scientists) fading away. (I don't mean to say that doctors are fading, but that the income bracket is!!)

As the middle class fade away, and as the degree to which genetic factors are playing a causal role in the amount wealth one accumulates, we will bear witness to increasingly stratified societies. This will happen because people tend to marry with someone with the same level of intelligence and wealth (says evolutionary psychology and common sense). So, the wealthy and able will continuously, and the poor and unable will continuously sink.

This can only be false if people weren't hiring others based on ability and didn't choose to buy commodities from sellers with better products. However, this trend would become insignificant if our resources became extremely abundant due to some miraculous innovation (Which is why I encourage the investment of capital so much - especially the funding of science. My ideal is Star Trek - "Oh, we don't have cash anymore," says Piccard to a woman from the past.)

The amount the poor procreate will not prevent this from happening; it will only make the bottom section larger (more workers for the rich, right?). Having an excessive amount of children will only harm their financial well-being and the potential financial well-being of their children. Welfare can only do so much.

My argument might be flawed. I just thought this up.. so am I being too pessimistic?

[Morality Games]

It has been suggested that intelligent people are being bred out of existence. Someone needs to found an organization which encourages people with high IQs to have and raise children.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if such an organization already exists.

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: Ajdub18 Will humans one day in the distant future just lose the desire to procreate? I feel like some of the most intelligent people I know are slowly fading away from the idea of having kids. When I was younger the thought of raising a kid excited me but now that I am older (not that much older I'm still only 25 which could be the reason I feel this anyway) I feel like I will never want kids and I have friends that are much older who feel the same way. Or is it probably just that people are wanting to have kids later in life as our life expectancy increases?

It's my understanding that procreation tends to rise and decline based on the natural human instinct of survival. When economic and moral times are up, there tends to be a baby boom (after World War II). When economic and moral times are down, there tends to be a baby bust (ala the late 1960s).

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: Morality Games It has been suggested that intelligent people are being bred out of existence. Someone needs to found an organization which encourages people with high IQs to have and raise children. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if such an organization already exists.

State source.

[samsara15]

I have never been persuaded by the arguments for Free Will.

If we do not have Free Will, or if an all-everything God exists, I have never bought the argument that it is fair to have a Hell, since God would have been aware of all our future actions from the moment we came into being. I have heard many a song and dance to explain this away, but no variation has ever made it seem humane to me.

[Morality Games]

Catherine the Great died from being trampled by a horse she had sexual escapades with. What a role model

Sweet jesus, you are bad at history. She died from a stroke when she was sixty-seven. That has to be one of the nuttiest, most unfounded beliefs ever.