Is AA a cult? Is AA a total fraud?

[Gorgo]

Is AA a cult or a fraud? Is alcoholism a "disease?" What is the proof for that? What is the state of drug and alcohol treatment in the U.S. and in the world? Is it all based on 12-step nonsense? What are possible science-based treatments?




http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecente.../is_aa_cult.htm

http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/ofcourse.htm

http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/rrhallof.htm

http://www.cts.com/crash/habtsmrt/

http://www.rational.org/recover.html

[Scribbler1]

Although the definition of disease is appropriate to apply the word here, I think alcoholism is more a self inflicted ailment for most alcoholics in that the overindulgence of alcohol is a prime factor in becoming an alcoholic. I think it starts out innocently enough, as drug use and smoking do, but an initial lack of self control is a catalyst. Like pain killers, used in extreme moderation usually does no harm but overuse leads to dependency. But yes, I'd say in strict terms it is a disease.
As for AA, I think it has elements of a cult in that it is religion-based and requires you to state you have lost all control of your life. That last part is the turnoff, IMO.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Originally posted by Gorgo, Is AA a cult or a fraud?

Neither, From 1st hand experience AA is not a cult because they do no make demands that you follow any particular religion and even though they recommend the alcoholic establish a relationship with God, AA does not have any rituals or sermons or proselytizing. AA is not affiliated with any religion. No, AA is not a fraud. If I can stay sober for 6 more days, it will be 10 years since I have had a drink of alcohol. I am an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. I could go into a drunkologue at this point but there are other questions and it is late.

Is alcoholism a "disease?"

Yes, Alcoholism is qualified as an allergy of the body coupled with an obsession of the mind. It has been medically diagnosed as a disease. I call it a disease that tells us we dont have a disease. Because it is so insidious, that alcoholics do not remember the damage it has done to our health, carreers, relationships, and property

What is the proof for that?

DR William D Silkworth: Alcoholism as a Manifestation of Allergy -"It is our purpose to show that there is a type of alcoholism characterized by a definite symptomatology and a fixed diagnosis indicative of a constant and specific pathology; in short, that true alcoholism is a manifestation of allergy."

What is the state of drug and alcohol treatment in the U.S. and in the world? Is it all based on 12-step nonsense?

I dont know of any others that have any success rate at all. The person who started Rational Recovery is in prison on an alcohol related charge of vehicular manslaughter (I am not positive, I will look that up later, to get all details)

What are possible science-based treatments?

None. Alcoholism is a threefold disease of the Body, Mind and spirit. The body is treated with abstinance, a true alcoholic cannot have just one little drink, it sets off an insatiable compulsion. The Mind is treated with new rationale and philosophy, old ideas have to change. The same man will drink again. It has always been my percption that has gotten me drunk, even though I blame it on people places things and circumstances. It is always me, though, who has gotten me drunk. The Spirit, is treated through taking the 12 steps of AA. These make a spiritual experience possible,. It is like kindergarten for the soul. The steps break things down into bitesize chunks that we can handle on our own pace. It has to be simple enough that a pickled brain like mine was could grasp it, with some help from other members. That help is so important and always available. I couldnt have ever done it alone. AA never got tired of all my stupid questions.

[Suburbanite]

If it takes AA for some people then so be it. I personally find overcoming something a solitary obstacle. Having had several addictions, I can say with certainty that it is a very difficult process regardless.

[Gorgo]

Would you please show me in a reputable science journal anything that shows alcoholism to be a disease?

I think you'll find that the person with a drinking problem is not the founder of RR, but another group that teaches that everyone can drink moderately.

What is AA's claimed success rate?

[Gorgo]

This from the Healthfraud list - archives at http://www.ssr.com

'I was the lead author of a chapter in James Christopher's book SOS SOBRIETY
(Prometheus Books 1992) in which I wrote:

"Yet, it the more than fifty years of accumulated literature on Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12-step groups, there is a notable absence of scientific evidence from well-designed outcome evaluation studies.

"Twelve-step groups have been popularly acclaimed for promoting recovery primarily on the basis of large numbers of anecdotal reports of personal success stories. Although membership survey data published in the newsletter A.A. GRAPEVINE quantify success stories, the data are still only anecdotal because they don't describe (1) how well survey respondents represent any definable population of AA members; (2) what percentage of those individuals who initially try 12-step meetings winds up worse off then they were before attending meetings; and (3) what percentage winds up improving. Moreover,
the experiences of AA members do not represent the experiences of addicts who learn to maintain sobriety without joining any type of fellowship (Stall and Biernacki, 1986).

"...Any claims made that the 12-step method is the "best," the "only," or a "highly efficiacious" path to addiction recovery are not supported by data. Yet it is not unusual for treatment professionals in the U.S. to offer the 12-step model to clients as the ONLY recommended path to recovery."

One more comment. As part of this thread someone questioned whether it was appropriate to attend AA meetings simply as an observer. The answer is that it is not appropriate to attend simply as an observer designated "closed" AA meetings, but it is appropriate for anyone to attend designated "open" or "open discussion" AA meetings. As part of courses I taught on alcohol, drug abuse, and addictions over a 12-year period, I gave an assignment for students to attend "open" or "open discussion" 12-step meetings and then answer a series of questions. (I encouraged students to attend designated smoke-free meetings because the amount of smoke and carbon monoxide at many meetings that allow smoking is enough to produce acute health problems in many people.)'

Bill London
---------------------------
From another post, assuming this is the same gentleman:
William M. London, Ed.D., M.P.H.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Originally posted by Gorgo, Would you please show me in a reputable science journal anything that shows alcoholism to be a disease?

1956: AMA declares alcoholism an illness

I think you'll find that the person with a drinking problem is not the founder of RR, but another group that teaches that everyone can drink moderately.

Could be, Im a bit foggy on that item.

What is AA's claimed success rate?

It would be impossible to calculate, but I am sure it is in the millions. Since success is based on staying sober "Just for today" anyone who has gone to a meeting and stayed sober for that day is a success. There are no rolls taken. Anonymity would make tracking impossible. We see the success stories at every meeting and I personally know over 1000 who have long term sobriety. Long term (to me) would be a year or more

[gr8fuldaniel]

From your link

:(2) what percentage of those individuals who initially try 12-step meetings winds up worse off then they were before attending meetings;

Alcoholism is a progressive disease. Unchecked it always gets worse and eventually leads to death either from direct physical damage to organs, or from consequential damage automobile accidents, work related or even stepping in front of a train or bus (whether on purpose or not) Alcoholism is famous for switching off good judgment. That explains why I have drunk away every good thing in my life, several times over.

[PatrickHenry]

My question to Gorgo: What's your problem with AA? Your topic title is somewhat biased wouldn't you say?

If I have understood you correctly, your disagreement with Alcoholics Anonymous is not really about the results. It's about the God statements, huh?
http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/defaul...id=17&pageid=24

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Originally posted by Gorgo, Would you please show me in a reputable science journal anything that shows alcoholism to be a disease?

This one has more meat to it: Physicians News

During the past 35 years, numerous studies by behavioral and social scientists have supported Jellinek’s contentions about alcoholism as a disease. The American Medical Association endorsed the concept in 1957. The American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians have also classified alcoholism as a disease. In addition, the findings of investigators in the late 1970s led to explicit criteria for an "alcohol dependence syndrome" which are now listed in the DSM IIR, DSM IV, and the ICD manual. In a 1992 JAMA article, the Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine published this definition for alcoholism: "Alcoholism is a primary chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, mostly denial. Each of these symptoms may be continuous or periodic."

Edit to add Link

[gr8fuldaniel]

Originally posted by Scribbler1, I think alcoholism is more a self inflicted ailment for most alcoholics in that the overindulgence of alcohol is a prime factor in becoming an alcoholic.

This is the most baffling part of the disease, the more I drink the thirstier I get. Also an evil little little idea lingers with the alcholic/addictive mind that; If a little feels good a lots gotta feel great. If a shot is good a keg is better. Maybe that is key difference between a normal drinker and a drunk, but thats what I got, and there is nothing that will convince me it will ever be different.

I think it starts out innocently enough, as drug use and smoking do, but an initial lack of self control is a catalyst.

Will-power has nothing to do with me being sober. I have used every atom of will power and self control in my being, that I would never allow myself to slip into another drunk, I sincerely meant it. I have sworn off in the morning, fully meaning it, and within minutes or hours I was at it again. I have brought serious hard ship on my own mother, swore I would never drink again. My solemn oaths are worthless where alcohol is concerned.

As for AA, I think it has elements of a cult in that it is religion-based and requires you to state you have lost all control of your life. That last part is the turnoff, IMO.

I think of it as spiritual based, not religous based. Heres why: In a religion they all demand that you worship a particular God in a certain way. There is a neat little mold that you have to pour yourself into and independant thought is divisive. AA does have some cliches that seem to help but they are not really religous. There is a lot of leeway on the God concept. In AA it is suggested that you find a God you can do business with. Or you dont even have to call it God if you dont want. A lot of good people call it a Higher Power, or HP. Thats cool we are good with that, the important thing is this If you find you cannot control and enjoy your drinking, and by your own power cannot save yourself from an immenent alcoholic death, you can reach out to an AA group as a power greater than yourself, until you can work out any wrinkles in your relationship with the author of life, and walk hand in hand with the spirit of the universe. Its a pretty cool deal and I admit I had some serious resentments against a God that wasnt doing things my way :) I got through all that screwy emotional crap early in recovery. Recovery from a disease that wanted me dead. That last part that you mentioned "requires you to state you have lost all control of your life. That last part is the turnoff, IMO." Thats the first step in recovery, AA works best for the most desperate who are willing to go to great lengths to improve their condition. I takes a degree of humility to admit defeat. Nobody wants to. If you have trouble with that then maybe you havent gotten to a point where you need help, yet. I had to go through some serious hell before I was ready. When I was ready, I was like a sponge for recovery. There are 3 magic words that require an absolute humility, "I Need Help". When those words are uttered anywhere on the planet, God shows up with exactly enough of what we need. The root of our trouble is often Ego, and Ego in the alcoholic, wants self dead. I have a disease that tells me I dont have a disease, so, I just dont pick up that first drink, no matter what comes down the pike, Just For Today. It Works for me. When I keep it simple.

[Compugasm]

Hello, my name is John. It's been 35 years since my last attrocity...

[Mr.Vicchio]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, My question to Gorgo: What's your problem with AA? Your topic title is somewhat biased wouldn't you say? If I have understood you correctly, your disagreement with Alcoholics Anonymous is not really about the results. It's about the God statements, huh?

Bingo PH, Bingo.

Gorgo finds any religious use offensive, and wishes to force his views of life on others by trying to detory that which he cannot understand.

Gr8, I salute you man, my uncle was a drunk, I lived him for a year and a half, he was an evil drunk.. its good to see you got your life out of the bottle. I have a rule, no more then two drinks. I will not end up like my uncle.

Comrade, I love ya man, but that wasn't funny... this time :)

[Gorgo]

Is Comrade even in this thread, 'V'?

Gr8, thanks for the input.

What kind of disease is it? Is it a mental illness, a genetic disorder, what? What reputable scientific journals have shown studies on this and what is their conclusion? Why is there still a controversy? The Physicians News articles sound like a lot of quacks that complain that doctors aren't properly trained to understand their particular brand of quackery. If only they were properly trained, they too would use faith healing or Hulda Clark's 'zapper' to treat everything. What is the basis of the idea that it is a disease? Why do you suppose it's necessary to label it as a disease? Why is it important to some not to call it a disease?

[Gorgo]

The topic title asks two questions. Don't know that asking questions is biased, but if it is, is it okay to be biased?

I would be happy to have someone tell me that AA is science-based and is all sunflowers and honey, but I haven't seen that yet.

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, My question to Gorgo: What's your problem with AA? Your topic title is somewhat biased wouldn't you say? If I have understood you correctly, your disagreement with Alcoholics Anonymous is not really about the results. It's about the God statements, huh?

[Gorgo]

Actually, as you will see if you were interested in the subject matter at all, 'V', the problem is that AA and the 12-step movement has become something that has been forced on people. People either do this 12-step thing or they go to jail. That's not me forcing something on someone, that's the government forcing this on a large group of people.

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, Bingo PH, Bingo. Gorgo finds any religious use offensive, and wishes to force his views of life on others by trying to detory that which he cannot understand.

[Gorgo]

I've read this before that AA claims that about 95% of people leave the program the first year, and don't quote me, but I think it's about half of the rest that leave within five years.

This from a review of "Alcoholics Anonymous, Cult or Cure" by Charles Bufe:


http://www.skepticfiles.org/skeptic/az_jan92.htm

What about the effectiveness of A.A. as a treatment modality for alcohol abuse? This is always a difficult question because few people can agree on what constitutes an alcoholic and consequently on how many there are. Based on a 1989 survey of its members, A.A. has determined that only 29 percent of its members have been able to achieve at least five years of sobriety.

Comparing this total with the U.S. population of alcoholics, he shows that A.A. is only succeeding with around two percent of the nation's alcoholics. If it seems unfair to include all alcoholics, he reminds us that at least half (conservatively) of all alcoholics attempt A.A. at some point in their lives. Using this figure only raises the success rate to 4 percent.

As low as this number is, it is even more disheartening when compared with the numbers for spontaneous remission. Studies suggest that spontaneous remission in alcoholics is around 3.7 to 7.4 percent per year. In other words, A.A.'s program doesn't do any better for the general population than does spontaneous
remission. No physician or psychologist would consider supporting a therapeutic regimen that did this poorly for any other type of problem. He then warms the hearts of skeptics by turning to the scientific method and warns us that there have been, unbelievably, only two well designed studies to test the efficacy of A.A.


The first one is a San Diego study done in the mid-1960s. It was composed of three treatment groups: an A.A. group, a clinical treatment group, and a control group. Much to everybody's surprise the control group did best and the A.A. group did the worst.


A Kentucky study completed in the mid-1970s compared five groups: a control group, a professionally led insight-therapy group, a non-professionally-led Rational Behavior Therapy group, a professionally led RBT group, and an A.A. group. The results showed clearly that the groups given professional treatment did better than did any of the other three. In contrast to the San Diego study, the control group did the poorest.


When the researchers compared the non-professional groups, they discovered that the RBT group was clearly superior in terms of dropout rate, decreased drinking, fewest arrests, and fewest binges.

Other studies have looked at the people who have been helped by A.A. By analyzing certain personality factors, a consensus has been found that shows the type of person who does well in A.A. This person is most likely male, single, religiously oriented, middle class, socially stable, few emotional problems, guilt-prone, a tendency to be obsessive-compulsive, an authoritarian
personality, inclined to use rationalization, a verbal person who can share his feelings, someone with high affiliative needs, high group dependency, and a binge/heavy drinker.

[Gorgo]

http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blncadd42.htm

Statement on Vehicular Manslaughter Charges
Against Author Of Moderation Management

By Stacia Murphy, President

It was with great sadness that the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, Inc. (NCADD) today learned that Audrey Kishline, author of Moderation Management and founder of a movement with the same name, has been charged by the state of Washington with two counts of vehicular manslaughter.

[Mr.Vicchio]

My bad Comp, good catch.

Gorgo, I would like you to just admit that AA uses religion, you cannot stand anything that uses religion, its sucessful, but you refuse to accept that anything with religious influence can work.

[Gorgo]

AA is a religion from what I have been able to determine, and I haven't seen where it is successful at all. Again, from what I can see, it seems to be one of those things that's based on superstition that just has no basis in science or reality.

It's become the state religion that is now being forced on people.

Alcoholism may be a disease, although again I can't find much scientific evidence of that, but I find no evidence that the 12-step mania that's taken over the country has any basis in science whatsoever.

I'm glad people think it works for them, but keep in mind that some people think that homeopathy works for them or Hulda Clark's zappers work for them. There is just no basis for those kinds of beliefs beyond placebo.

I've not drawn a hard and fast conclusion here, just stating what I've seen so far.