Is AA a cult? Is AA a total fraud?

[Gorgo]

As to the comments about Kishline, she was obviously not helped much by AA (as is true with most who go to AA).

You were not powerless to quit, you quit. No one else did it for you. You did it when you realized that what you were doing had less benefit than what you wanted to do and that you had some chance of doing that something else.

I don't get all the comments by Trimpey on this, and probably could have prefaced it with some kind of comment or cut it short, but the comment I found interesting is that the AMA's mention that alcoholism is a disease is not the result of some scientific finding. There is no science behind the statement. It's just a statement of opinion by some people who really are not experts in the field. Now, is Jack Trimpey the last word on all things addiction? That's another matter and can't comment one way or the other.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Gorgo You were not powerless to quit, you quit. No one else did it for you. You did it when you realized that what you were doing had less benefit than what you wanted to do and that you had some chance of doing that something else.

Thats just it! I drank in spite of my better judgement. Often thinking I "deserved" a good stiff drink. How could all these horrific episodes be preceded by that kind of ludicrous thought. I never played the whole tape. Only remembered the euphoric first and second drinks and blacking out all the rest. Until you have experienced it, you cant hardly understand.
But other people that are like me, understand. Its kinda like explaining the color red to a blind man.

[gr8fuldaniel]

But self knowlege alone, is not enough. I had to accept and admit my powerlessness. I could finally do that, in 1994. It is true and nobody can convince me otherwise. Same with tobacco. Powerless. I could not just take em or leave em'. They owned me. Then, after 16 months sober, I applied the principles I learned in AA, to my nicotine addiction. Bam! .....It worked.
I know who hard it is to admit defeat. The male ego wont allow it. Society programs us to compete with our whole being and to take no prisoners. I was raised with songs like "We are the Champions", and with football and baseball and wrestling and "Winning is Everything". To never quit, to go down with the ship. And now I had to admit that an inanimate object had me whooped?
Shameful but true.
I needed a very real power. My power was useless against these Goddamn chemicals. Religion failed to work in the past.
Religion would fail again.
But in AA I discovered religion is for people who dont want to got to HELL!!
But, spirituality is for people who have already been there and dont want to go back.

[Gorgo]

Don't know about drinking, but I know about other types of addictions like smoking and overeating. When I realized that the idea of powerlessness was a lie I was able to change.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Good for you. Maybe you didnt have what I have. I use present tense, because my disease is dormant until reactivated. I call it a disease and a malady for lack of a better term. Seems accurate to me.
Maybe you found and tapped some inner strength or knowlege. Maybe you just had a weakness that could have developed with time into the equivalent of full blown Alcoholism. I am not familiar with eating disorders, first hand. I understand they can be just as awful.
What you learned might work for problem drinkers (folks who might drink a little too much once in a while). Then you have the "Real Alcoholics" who need a drink just to feel like their skin fits. We are folks who are trying to feel normal, for the most part. Or some of us need one just to go outside and face the world. No 2 people are alike. Alcohol doesnt affect us all the same. Just like food doesnt affect us all the same.

I used to drink for a black out. I had a terrible childhood. Very abusive.
I wanted release from my past and drinking would give me that. At least for a while.
When the future looks hopeless, release from a horrible past looks like a pretty sweet deal. Good reason to drink? No, but for an alcoholic a weak excuse works just fine.

[UmSamir]

Quote by: PatrickHenry My question to Gorgo: What's your problem with AA? Your topic title is somewhat biased wouldn't you say? If I have understood you correctly, your disagreement with Alcoholics Anonymous is not really about the results. It's about the God statements, huh? http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/defaul...id=17&pageid=24

>>> If I have understood you correctly, your disagreement with Alcoholics Anonymous is not really about the results. It's about the God statements, huh?<<<<

I personally don't know what anyone's feelings are concerning God. I was raised to believe in God, and though one could say I'm on a spriritual quest, studying different belief systems, I haven't discounted a 'higher power' at all.

Having said that, I used the method of just quitting without treatment or a lot of self pity, etc. This was after over a decade of heavy drinking, sometimes not being able to remember how I'd driven home, a DUI, the whole 9 yards.

It was some time later that I read there was another school of thought besides the AA "I'm a helpless loser with no self control" model .

I'd apparently used the method without even realizing it was a legit approach. All I know is, it worked. I never said to myself it's somethig I had no control over. On the contrary, I realized I was the one who acquired and consumed the alcohol, and I could stop doing it.

Sure, I've been drunk since. I've 'tied one on' a couple of times in the last few years, but I'm not afraid anymore of what might happen if I have a drink, or even a few.

[Gorgo]

I say this with all due respect to Gr8. I agree with most of what he's said on most every subject here, I think he's shown himself to be a wonderful person. I would not say this if I thought it took anything away from him at all. But, from what I've seen about AA I think the standard answer is that anyone who has completely failed is an alcoholic, and anyone who has been cured by AA is an alcoholic, but the rest are just problem drinkers or alcoholics in denial. If you've settled your drinking problem in your own head without AA then you never were an "alcoholic."

[gr8fuldaniel]

When you say:

Quote by: Gorgo If you've settled your drinking problem in your own head without AA then you never were an "alcoholic."

By "settled" do you mean, that person can learn to control and enjoy his drinking?
If thats the case, then yes I would say that. If a person can start drinking like everyone else, stop after 2 or 3 drinks (or whenever that person wanted to) and never lose control of his judgement, his tongue, his anger or revert back to any of his Jekyl and Hyde tendencies. If he never again spends his rent, shoe or food money on booze or crystal or coke heroin or whatever...... Prolly not an alcoholic/addict.
He may not have been an alcoholic. Alcoholics always get worse, never better-- where alcohol is concerned.
"There is no cure for Alcoholism, what we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition..." (from the promises in AA basic text). I will never be able to drink like a gentleman. I am OK with that. It was a long hard road to learn that. It finally sunk in and now all those beautiful bottles in the liquor store that I used to drool over, now have Skull and Bones (poison) on each one. The appeal is no longer there.

If you are saying the person has "settled the problem in his own head", meaning he no longer has to drink at all again....Then more power to him AA doesnt have a monopoly on recovery. Some have changed from a spiritual awakening outside of AA. We are cool with that.
The only person who can diagnose us, is ourselves. Our book can help with that diagnosis.

P.S. Thanx for saying the nice things about me, even though you know I aint no saint! :) You are pretty cool too!! You are very smart and you have a good heart.

[gr8fuldaniel]

This is interesting and believable: (I have only read the 1st half, so far) Addiction: A Neurological Disorder Are some people "Wired" for addiction? Or can anyone, with time and persistance achieve a pathetic level of (seemingly) hopeless addiction?

I dont see a credential for this reference. I am only offering it for entertainment value. :)

[Rounddaworld]

Quote by: Gorgo Don't know about drinking, but I know about other types of addictions like smoking and overeating. When I realized that the idea of powerlessness was a lie I was able to change.

I am new here. Seems like a nice board to debate. I hope to post more as time allows.

Gorgo, I completely agree with this view. I also had some experience with AA many years ago and left due to my observation that it promotes abdication of personal responsibility for ones own behavior. No where in the twelve steps does it mention quitting drinking. The Big Book specifically states "Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us. ( p. 77 )". Anyone who could not admit that AA is a religious approach to a substance abuse problem is just ducking the facts.

When discussing drug use as a disease he said: "There is a big difference between a real disease such as diabetes and a 'metaphorical' disease such as drug addiction. If you put a person with diabetes in prison and deprived him of insulin he will get sick and die. If you put a person who is labeled a drug addict in prison and deprive him of drugs he will get physically healthier and live." Dr. Schaler said: "Everyone quits using drugs the same way ? they make the decision to quit. Treatment not only does not work for drug addiction, it cannot work because there is nothing to treat."

http://www.schaler.net/inthenews/royalgazette.html

This guy who is an old timer of AA speaks pretty plainly about its religious roots and basis. AA has adapted a softer just as many religions to keep the flock flowing in.
http://www.dickb.com/index.shtml

Here you will find details on Dick's books and articles about Alcoholics Anonymous and the Bible; Quiet Time; the teachings of Rev. Sam Shoemaker of New York; the life-changing program of the Oxford Group; the contents of the spiritual journal assembled by Dr. Bob's wife, Anne Ripley Smith, and shared with AAs and their families; and the religious literature they all studied.

The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly: On their own There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution. Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3. (See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)

AA teaches that membership and AA is more important than anything else. It fosters a belief in dependence on the group for life and diminishes personal will power to a meaningless, useless aspect in regards to controlling ones drinking behavior.

"I decided I must place this program above everything else, even my family, because if I did not maintain my sobriety I would lose my family anyway." The Big Book, 3rd Edition -- Chapter B10, He Sold Himself Short, page 293. Even after she remarries, she doesn't lose sight of her priorities. She places God first and A.A. second. Her husband is never more than the third most important aspect of her life. Big Book Unplugged; A Young Person's Guide to Alcoholics Anonymous, John R., page 107.

In my view and experience as a substance abuser I had to acknowledge and challenge my dependencies. I had to confront my childish dependencies of being rescued by a group or a higher power and face reality in an adult manner. The confidence and self esteem gained form such an accomplishment was worth a lifetime of meetings and groveling before some imaginary power greater than myself that I had to appeal to the pity of and ask it to do my job for me.
I find the self concept one is taught in AA to rob one of personal abilities and create an unhealthy dependence on group thinking and behavior as well as mysticism. On the other hand if people want to go that route it isn't really my concern. If you really believe it is the way for you to go then, all the lack of power to you.

[Gorgo]

One of the problems is that such things become the law of the land. People have found themselves in jail because they were given no alternative to AA. The other problem is the promotion of the idea that magic works. That leads to more problems. It is our business.

Quote by: Rounddaworld On the other hand if people want to go that route it isn't really my concern.

[Rounddaworld]

Quote by: Gorgo One of the problems is that such things become the law of the land. People have found themselves in jail because they were given no alternative to AA. The other problem is the promotion of the idea that magic works. That leads to more problems. It is our business.

From a legal standpoint I certainly agree. AA through it's members in high places pushed it's agenda to the point where it was court ordered. In that respect you certainly are correct.

If you would agree to 90 meetings in 90 days and have your court card signed you would not have to do time. This led to a swelling of the membership, the revenues and the influence of the organization. At least now there are alternatives dished out by the courts.

I was speaking more for my personal concern for someone who wants to subscribe to such nonsense and has no intention of filtering their perceptions in any other manner. I have not lived in the US for many years. If I wasn't concerned about the snake oil of the organization I would not of posted.

My point was meant more to indicate that people are or should be entiltled to believe whatever they choose. I do agree that the idea of magic or rather mysticism is a valid alternative to reality is grossly absurd and of course any person who has achieved this realization should rage against the machine so to speak.