Belief in God leads to crime.

The United States has the world's largest prison population, not just per capita but in absolute numbers. The United States is also the most religious of the developed countries and one of the most religious in the world. 92% of Americans believe in God, for example, compared to 38% of people in the United Kingdom.

Don't these facts suggest that belief in God leads to criminal behavior rather than moral behavior? Or at the very least, that belief in God does not influence a person's morality? How can it be that the United States is so religious and so lawless and criminal at the same time? What role does God--or belief in God--play in this? Has God abandoned America? Is that why it is the nation with the most criminals?

Given the facts, how can a religious person make a plausible argument that any moral good comes from believing or worshiping a God?

Please don't proffer the suggestion that US. inmates aren't religious. It's not true.

[Morality Games]

Quote by: sdbest The United States has the world's largest prison population, not just per capita but in absolute numbers. The United States is also the most religious of the developed countries and one of the most religious in the world. 92% of Americans believe in God, for example, compared to 38% of people in the United Kingdom. Don't these facts suggest that belief in God leads to criminal behavior rather than moral behavior? Or at the very least, that belief in God does not influence a person's morality? How can it be that the United States is so religious and so lawless and criminal at the same time? What role does God--or belief in God--play in this? Has God abandoned America? Is that why it is the nation with the most criminals? Given the facts, how can a religious person make a plausible argument that any moral good comes from believing or worshiping a God? Please don't proffer the suggestion that US. inmates aren't religious. It's not true.

There are some funny things about the relationship between religion and crime in the United States, but religion, though it gets involved in various ways, isn't the primary contributor to crime.

For the most part, I imagine religion isn't likely to deter criminal types from commiting crimes (maybe druggies will stop using drugs), but rather influence the way they think about themselves and the crimes they commit, and maybe effect their execution of crimes somewhat.

[HelioPrime]

Just saying 92% of American's believe in God doesn't really take into account people have different levels of belief and how it impacts their lives.

Hitler believed in God. How he believed and how he felt God impacted his life is far different from many other people.

Most crimes seem to stem from emotions such as greed or rage, neither is impacted by religion in most cases. If a drug addict needs cash he's going to steal for cash, and a Hispanic inner city male might likely stab a cheating wife wether he is religious or not.

[another day]

Correlation is not causation. This is ridiculous. Religion and morality are completely independent of one another. Religion will neither make a good person bad, nor make a bad person good. The good and evil is within them from the beginning.

It's the socio-political climate in America that is the problem, that is leading to so many gangs and criminals. As well as government policies, drug laws, privatized prisons, overzealous gung ho cops etc.

And as a side note it should be mentioned that a large number of prison inmates are "religious" because it is looked upon favorably at parole hearings.

Quote by: another day Correlation is not causation. This is ridiculous. Religion and morality are completely independent of one another. Religion will neither make a good person bad, nor make a bad person good.

Well, I tend to generally agree with you. But the fact is that many--likely most religious people--believe there is a link between belief in God and morality. Indeed, Americans, at least, distrust atheists more than other minority. Using the logic used by religious people, the evidence suggests that religious belief produces criminality, and the higher the level of religious belief, the higher the level of criminality.

[HelioPrime]

I'd say the highest level of criminality exists in a world devoid of religion except for the painted face of religion used to exploit voters. It's called Congress and the White House.

[Morality Games]

Quote by: sdbest Well, I tend to generally agree with you. But the fact is that many--likely most religious people--believe there is a link between belief in God and morality. Indeed, Americans, at least, distrust atheists more than other minority. Using the logic used by religious people, the evidence suggests that religious belief produces criminality, and the higher the level of religious belief, the higher the level of criminality.

. . . well, I will admit you are using the same logical standards employed by Christians to support their religion to condemn their religion as a source of criminality, but that's not an indication of truth.

I'd say the highest level of criminality exists in a world devoid of religion except for the painted face of religion used to exploit voters. It's called Congress and the White House.

Imagine all you want. Crime exists where poverty, perceived inequality, and nervous system chemistry-related psychological imbalances (including those caused by drugs, trauma, or a bad diet) exist. Religion has never been able to do anything to stop it, not in history and not in contemporary times.

[thrashee]

Quote by: sdbest Well, I tend to generally agree with you. But the fact is that many--likely most religious people--believe there is a link between belief in God and morality. Indeed, Americans, at least, distrust atheists more than other minority. Using the logic used by religious people, the evidence suggests that religious belief produces criminality, and the higher the level of religious belief, the higher the level of criminality.

Your logic still doesn't follow; in fact, in your OP you are arguing that the evidence suggests that a belief in God does not dictate morality. Regardless of whether religious people agree with this, none of this infers that it's the religious belief itself generating criminality.

[another day]

Quote by: sdbest Well, I tend to generally agree with you. But the fact is that many--likely most religious people--believe there is a link between belief in God and morality. Indeed, Americans, at least, distrust atheists more than other minority. Using the logic used by religious people, the evidence suggests that religious belief produces criminality, and the higher the level of religious belief, the higher the level of criminality.

Using the logic used by religious people? Why would we do that?

The evidence does not suggest that religious belief produces criminality. You have only managed to twist it in such a way that it could be seen that way by a less questioning person. What's the point in that? Look at this from an objective viewpoint instead of trying to find ways to pick holes in the theist armour. It's obvious the criminality in America has little to do with the levels of religion, there are other, more complex causes that have to do with environment, family dynamics, laws, racial dynamics, etc.

The simple fact is the bible says not to steal, kill, or cheat etc. So if people were actually religious, and obeying the laws of their religion, they could not be criminals. Therefore, any smart theist would simply tell you the crime rate is high because no one is really following religion, they just say they do on surveys.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Morality Games Imagine all you want. Crime exists where poverty, perceived inequality, and nervous system chemistry-related psychological imbalances (including those caused by drugs, trauma, or a bad diet) exist. Religion has never been able to do anything to stop it, not in history and not in contemporary times.

Be careful with those words. With an indepth look we could find plenty of cases on a personal level where religion led someone to act or not to act in such a manner than was beneficial. This could be the same for any person, not just the religious, but it's an outright lie to say religion has never done any good.

[Leveller]

Good people will be good, and bad people will be bad, but for good people to do bad things, you need religion.

The link between crime and religion is largely irrelivent. I'm sure the overwhelming majoirty of people convicted of crimes will say they are christian, because that is what there background is, without really giving it much thought. If you are raised in a christian society, you are going to have vague christian leanings, even though you never go to church and never pray, if your stopped on the street and asked your religion, you would proberbly casually answer christian, without really thinking about it.

In America, the majority of atheists have reached there religious view through careful thought and consideration, and have become atheists in spite of there surrounding culture. Given the level of thought required to defy the religious convictions of your peers, it would logicly follow that you would give as much thought to your own moral outlook.

While the link between religion and criminality is, as has been stated, a correlation, not a causation. it is true to say that informed and intellignet people tend not to be criminals. It is because atheism is a position of rational thought, and not a position of casual adoption, that Atheism has such a low criminality rate.

Take crime out of the picture, I would like to point out that, whilst not always criminal, the most morally reprehensible acts are almost always carried out by religious people. The Phelps, Falwell, Robertson, Bin Laden, these are good examples because there evil was and is a result of their religion, unlike Hitler or Stalin, where their religion (or lack thereof) was coincidental.

[Morality Games]

Quote by: HelioPrime Be careful with those words. With an indepth look we could find plenty of cases on a personal level where religion led someone to act or not to act in such a manner than was beneficial. This could be the same for any person, not just the religious, but it's an outright lie to say religion has never done any good.

Religion is not a substantial or irreplaceable deterrent of crime. In those instances where it does contribute, other forces (such as a strong desire to live a more peaceful, prosperous, or healthier lifestyle) are the prime movers -- religion, as additional inspiration, comes in as more of an assistent in those circumstances. Other ideologies, like existentialism or humanism, would perform similar functions in such desperate situations.

Religion's effect on criminals, if it has an effect at all, is more reflective in nature -- it makes them contemplate their crimes and their execution of them in a spiritual light (at least sometimes), but not abstain from a criminal lifestyle altogether (which they feel is suitable for them for some reason or another). The mentality of numerous mafia organizations or Christians in general during the Dark Ages is a good representation of this.

That's really the best way to make sense of how so many criminals can be religious.

[ironeagle]

First I don't believe your statistics at all. Second it is not enough to believe in god , you must also follow his path and rules in life. What a country such as America might make a crime is not necisarily a crime in the eyes of God. If I kill the man who killed my son, I follow Gods law and although I may be held to mans law will be exhonerated in Gods Kingdom. What a socialist country steals from it's people in life, God will take away from those leaders in death. Gods law says you do not steal, so just because your ocuntry doesn't punish people for stealing their income, doesn't make it not a crime against God. Gods's best warriors became Martrys because they followed gods law to their deaths. I am willing to die for God's law too. If you think the majority of our crimes are committed by Americans you are sadly mistaken, many are illegal aliens, drug smugglers from other countries. Of the ones from here the majority have commited no violent crimes, many of which are for stupid things like inability to afford outrageous child support awards, designed to fill the financial void of income for the lazy, or underemployed custodial parent, again an award against the will of the payor, stealing. So don't try to pit wits against me using God you will loose. Besides I can hold firm on my hope God will find a way to you in the end so you can be in paradise with me. P.S your stupid and uneducated statistical speculations, which hold no merit, no basis, no basic evidence, or background are getting old and worn out, why don't you just go start the I hate Christians and Americans website and have done with it. I had hoped to debate far more educated people than you.

[Jack]

Let's not turn this into a member bashing thread. Debate the topic. Refrain from adding your negative opinions of other members.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[Thanatos]

Correlation is not causation.



Most atheists are educated. Education correlates with reduced crime. We may or may not be better people.

[ironeagle]

It's pretty hard to do that when the members here are repeatatively allowed to harrass, and personally attack Christians, and Americans most of these debates make no sense at all and are here just to upset the Christians and Americans and I am also tired of those personal remarks. I want to debate someone in here with some class and who is ready to use real information they actually believe in and say here is what I think. I'm sick of all the fake forums meant to again upset our sacred religon and meant to insult my fellow Americans who I am proud of every day.

[ironeagle]

Ok here's one, atheists are in denial and if God doesn't forgive you and you die, you might spend your life in Hell. There is no merit to any of the statistical info in this thread none whatesoever.

[Hurt]

Quote by: Thanatos Correlation is not causation. Most atheists are educated. Education correlates with reduced crime. We may or may not be better people.

Agreed..

c'mon guys. joke thread, much?

[SoylentGreen]

Don't these facts suggest that belief in God leads to criminal behavior rather than moral behavior?

Perhaps it might be the other way around. A belief in god leads to a excessive amount of morality. Perhaps the large christian community is responsible for many of the unnecessary laws that exist. And the greater amount of laws leads to more people breaking them and ending up in jail.

I was told once by a prison rehab officer that there are only three things that will convert a criminal into a honest man, old age, a good woman and religion.

[another day]

Quote by: ironeagle It's pretty hard to do that when the members here are repeatatively allowed to harrass, and personally attack Christians, and Americans most of these debates make no sense at all and are here just to upset the Christians and Americans and I am also tired of those personal remarks. I want to debate someone in here with some class and who is ready to use real information they actually believe in and say here is what I think. I'm sick of all the fake forums meant to again upset our sacred religon and meant to insult my fellow Americans who I am proud of every day.

If you can't handle everything you believe in being attacked, you need to get off internet debate forums, or grow a thicker skin. That's what this place is for. It's a big world out there, and there is a lot of animosity towards both Americans and Christians, so get used to it.