Christ does NOT fulfill prophesy

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: Rog Jesus promissed to save us by grace, so by falowing the laws only, it will not get us anywhere. did you miss that?

If Jesus doesn't fulfill the Old Testament prophecies.....then what is he really? Just a good dude with a good message and a bogus claim that only he can save you?

IS the religion of Christianity REALLY that cherry picked that we just take some parts literally and others we throw under the bus?

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: ironeagle "One" refers to God reference to himself when he spoke to Mosses. Mosses was left to understand this message that there is only one God. The prophecy has not been fulfilled because the Rapture hasn't come yet. On that day if you are alive you will surely know it. God will rule on earth out of heaven , not Jesus.

Oh.....right.....Rapture. Nothing of it in the Bible. Just something made up by a dude not so long ago. Look up John Nelson Darby and William Blackstone. This rapture stuff is a fairly "new" idea.

[Charlatan]

So was Christ the Messiah? Jews would say no, because He didn't fill the prophecies and didn't bring peace to the world, and what sort of Messiah would not bring peace to the world? If it is to be in His second coming, why the long wait? If He did not explain the word of God properly, as He said He did, why wait two centuries to bring forth the word of God, or is God into not being understood? That would mean the word of God has been sayed in one region of the world, in one language, thrice! Why does God's word keep changing for people?

How was Jesus resurrected? How is anyone resurrected? To die is when your body stops working so that it starts dying. When someone dies is when their brain and heart activity stops, and this has happened before medically when people get jumpered back to life. It takes a shock to come back to life, so, as a nervous reaction, could the body come back to life? Could a body have a delayed reaction where it regains heartbeat? Could this come from inside the body? Monks have shown how amazing the body is by lying with their stomachs on swords, so could the body be so amazing that people could be brought back to life at any given time? The actual shock of the heart stopping is quite a shock, and very hard to regain momentum at any given time. Could something beat for many years and then relax for three days and then start again, working as it is supposed to? Can you take a heart out of someone that has died and then leave it for a few days and then start it up again? Well it is a muscle, and that means that it has formed itself out of use, and that muscle will remain good for use for a few months I reckon, so it could start again after three days. All it needs is a 'kick', so could someone give the things to the heart it needs to start beating again, jump start Jesus? Jesus was in the process of dying for a number of days, so when He did die he was well and truly dead, unless someone took Him down early and did not pierce his side with a spear and they sought after Him in the tomb for that time he was gone. Maybe the followers of His raised enough money to bribe someone, but that is a long shot. But I am curious of how someone would be able to come back to life from being dead, for more than a few days. So what would give people that spark they needed to revive themselves? If it happened all over the place, there must be some sort of impulse in the dead body to revive them, otherwise it is God's power, and there need be no explanation. Could the muscles all jerk at the lack of blood they are getting, a sort of reflex to the still blood in them that makes the muscle try to 'correct' itself by making a spasm that reacts to other muscles and makes them spasm because they have had no activity for a number of days? That is the only way - barring human interference - I could ever see the body coming back to life.

[J. Askiloupos]

In response to the OP:

Alternately, Rogue Cardinal, you COULD be spinning the passages in the opposite direction.

It's been known to happen in instances like this (not neccessarily with you personally).

And, please dont plead logical impartiality.

None may truly make such a claim.

All that aside, you seem to have an extensive background in messianic prophecy and rabbinical teachings- disillusioned former believer?

Mind now, nothing I say is in any way meant in a hostile manner- I'm just here to engage in an exchange of thought.

Sincerely,
Julian

[Darebirth]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity.

Despite being a non-theist, I still take issue with the idea that a god could not become a man. You say here that he is above time (In essence he created time) so he can do anything within or without time. He created space, so he can be everywhere because he is not bound by such spacial limits. So just from these two examples, we see that god can do more than his creations, or that his creations can only do a portion of what he can do. So to say that god cannot become a human being seems absurd to me.

You and I are certainly capable of being human beings, right? So why could he, the supposed creator of humans, not be capable of becoming human himself?

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: Darebirth Despite being a non-theist, I still take issue with the idea that a god could not become a man. You say here that he is above time (In essence he created time) so he can do anything within or without time. He created space, so he can be everywhere because he is not bound by such spacial limits. So just from these two examples, we see that god can do more than his creations, or that his creations can only do a portion of what he can do. So to say that god cannot become a human being seems absurd to me. You and I are certainly capable of being human beings, right? So why could he, the supposed creator of humans, not be capable of becoming human himself?

Well you are taking what I actually said out of context. I was speaking strictly from a Jewish point of view. What I actually wrote was this:

"Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19)."

I was writing about what Maimonides states as it is taught to the Jews.

He could take a human form.....but he couldn't be a human.

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: J. Askiloupos In response to the OP: Alternately, Rogue Cardinal, you COULD be spinning the passages in the opposite direction. It's been known to happen in instances like this (not neccessarily with you personally).

support............

And, please dont plead logical impartiality.

Don't need to

All that aside, you seem to have an extensive background in messianic prophecy and rabbinical teachings- disillusioned former believer?

Yup. Never said any different. For me I've spent a lifetime...and still do....studying up on a lot of things especially when it comes to Christ. There is so much out there that most Christians don't know....and to be honest they don't want to know it. But that's a different discussion.

Mind now, nothing I say is in any way meant in a hostile manner- I'm just here to engage in an exchange of thought.

I didn't see anything hostile in what you said at all....proceed.

[heartofyehoshua]

the fact is jesus is not the messiah, yeshua is. his followers are the jews who reconised him as such and begain the church, later under peter the roman gaurd a gential was adopted into the vine, then paul a pharrasee, comes to see yeshua as the messiah and spends his life applying the torah with the insight of the living torah yeshua, to the world.

christian, to stand a christian next to one like say timothy, paul, peter, or an89yone of nteh first 100years, you would never reconise him,

fact is a"christian" is a jew, by adoption through the blood of messiah, made clean and grafted in to live as a jew should . however they couldnt nor can agree on that, remember the first division of gods church, the church started under mosses? the torah and all the prophets were giving clearly in hebrew there own tongue, yet they couldnt agree on what it said, or meant, and divided themselves in the teple pharasee and sagasees, hundreds of years later messiah comes, not disputing the torah he said not one mark, not one letter sahll pass away, he disputed the stiff necked interprataion of it the jews had came to hold so dear. yeshua is the end of torah, as paul says, not as in done or finished, not removed or put away, through the perfect law, if one could follow it as god would have in perfection, he would live and look as yeshua did. the end result of gods perfect law will be, us one day living as it describes ever so brief.

you refeer to the jews, i just spent sabath with one lives just outside of jerusalum, and is a messianic follower of yeshua, yea 14llion deni him and about 6000jews see him as the messiah.

to make blanket stments only shows the blinded side of our failed understanding, i understand little, and know less, but i have studied enough to see often that which one states is no more true than the falsehood they seek to disprove,

as yeshua said, if you love me, obey my commands, live torah and go home to nour roots, pray your father through grace and yeshua will lead you to humility and understanding that one day he may say to you. well done good and faithfull servent.....

may god be proving right and man a liar........

[heartofyehoshua]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal If Jesus doesn't fulfill the Old Testament prophecies.....then what is he really? Just a good dude with a good message and a bogus claim that only he can save you? IS the religion of Christianity REALLY that cherry picked that we just take some parts literally and others we throw under the bus?

if we say only the the jews are right, and torah is all there is and is right,

ok, but why then do the jews not follow the torah every sabath?

they light 2 candles, one for each differnt rendering of the commandment to honor the sabath exodus 20"8 and duet 5:12

yet torah says to light the lamp of your tent? they didnt use candles under mosses, they used a crude clay lamp with a cotton wich and olive oil as the full to burn, so why dont you do as you were told? instead of adding your own interprataions due to conflict or understanding of the law.

one spat says do not leave your tent, yet modern prctice even i days of yeshua were to 1-3 times travel to the synagog to read mosses writings, fact is there are more man added instructions of how to do what the torah says then comands in the torah its self, these added miss understanding is what yeshua rebuked often,

yet, he did say to follow the commands, not forshaking the traditions, so he actually aside form them conflicting upholds boith