Psychedelia and Spirituality

[Dadoo]

As an Anthro and Toxicology student I developed a taste for Ethnobotany. After following the work of R.E. Schultes and many others in the genre, I am left believing that in many cultures, hallucinogens are employed in a safe and ritualistic context in the effort to achieve unity with "god" or "goddess", "spirit" and "self".
I wondered if any of you have experiences, opinions or an answer to my questions:
What do you think about the use of hallucinogenic plants to facilitate meditative worship?
Why is the use so common among tribal people, and so feared/ stigmatized in the Western cultures?

[SoylentGreen]

There are 330 million gods in india. A country of many differing and exotic hallucinogens.
There is one boring god in europe . A place of few hallucinogens.

What do you think about the use of hallucinogenic plants to facilitate meditative worship?

Personally i have never found any gods while under. But I do remember a feeling of wonder and awe when looking up at the stars. But then again I also got that feeling when staring at a table.
There is nothing to worship, it is just a drug , no more.

Why is the use so common among tribal people, and so feared/ stigmatized in the Western cultures?

Short answer, No one is there to tell the tribe they can't , and it's fun to get faceless.
Western culture is heavily influenced by a boring god.

[Gods_Mercenary]

When I was in Arizona, there was this plant the natives used that would almost definitely kill you if eaten raw (though you'd get the trip of a lifetime) and still had a good chance of killing you if prepared by a medicine man. At any rate, if you need hallucinogens, deadly, slightly dangerous, or otherwise to see your god, chances are he's not there

[minorwork]

Shaking consciousness loose from tradition can show that there are more ways and worlds to explore. Drugs are capable of limited access to other states of consciousness. Very limited.

Drugs are feared, and rightfully so, because when areas toxic to sanity are encountered, fear will not bring relief. Only time. Maybe. This is the fools technique to exploration of spiritual spaces.

[Dadoo]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary When I was in Arizona, there was this plant the natives used that would almost definitely kill you if eaten raw (though you'd get the trip of a lifetime) and still had a good chance of killing you if prepared by a medicine man. At any rate, if you need hallucinogens, deadly, slightly dangerous, or otherwise to see your god, chances are he's not there

I agree.
The plant I assume is S. secundiflora, which a poison/ panacae of the legume family. They were tossed aside in favor of peyote, which proved to be less toxic.
Maybe "their God" is there, and some people need encouragement to see it... or not.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I dunno, all I remember is that it had long, deceptively pretty white flowers.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I dunno, all I remember is that it had long, deceptively pretty white flowers.

Could you mean Datura, A strong hallucigent but very deadly.
I have tried it but apart from giving incredibly vivid visions it is also like playing russian roulette I wouldn't recommend experimenting unless your in an , I have nothing to lose , frame of mind.

[Dadoo]

You are probably right, tasty Soylent.
Too strong by most standards, known as Jamestown weed after it was mistakenly used as a 'potherb'. Many men sat in a tree for some days and acted like apes!
Yet tomatoes, potatoes and peppers are in the same family, solanaceae.
Henbane and Belladonna have also been employed for various reasons, some oracular.

[minorwork]

The Soma drink was supposed to take one directly to Brahm. This is emulated in churches to this day, though without the key ingredient.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: SoylentGreen Could you mean Datura, A strong hallucigent but very deadly. I have tried it but apart from giving incredibly vivid visions it is also like playing russian roulette I wouldn't recommend experimenting unless your in an , I have nothing to lose , frame of mind.

that's it, I probably could've just looked it up online, but I'm no longer in the southwest so my acidental eating for no reason of the pretty plant is no longer an issue.

[davedes]

Quote by: minorwork This is the fools technique to exploration of spiritual spaces.

I disagree. Psychedelics are catalysts to entering this state. It may be foolish to depend on psychedelics to achieve this state, but using psychedelics to enhance the spiritual experience is not foolish.

[wyoguy]

Mind altering substances tend to make me spiritually distant from God.

[thrashee]

Quote by: minorwork Drugs are feared, and rightfully so, because when areas toxic to sanity are encountered, fear will not bring relief. Only time. Maybe. This is the fools technique to exploration of spiritual spaces.

I have to agree. From personal experience, I've been to some dark places in my mind through the use of hallucinogens, and I've found that once certain doors are opened, they're never fully close.

[SoylentGreen]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary that's it, I probably could've just looked it up online, but I'm no longer in the southwest so my acidental eating for no reason of the pretty plant is no longer an issue.

Eating it is ok, just don't accidentally boil up the leaves. Especially the roots and flowers.
Have you ever heard of a writer called carlos castaneda. Wrote a series of books about a his experiences under the tutelage of a Yaqui shaman named don Juan Matus whom he met in 1960.
Supposedly a true story, he gives details on preparations of plants for releasing the spirit.

[Dadoo]

Be VERY skeptical about the recipes and techniques provided by C. Casteneda. The nagual work and some of the shamanic insights are accurate for the region and tribe but the plant info is almost complete bunk.
Many kids are poisoned every year for eating or smoking Datura.ala Casteneda.
Tropane alkaloids like scopolamine and atropine are very dangerous, indeed.
The books are valuable and insightful OTW; just bring a wee bit of salt.

[The Bacon Guy]

Psychedelics are enjoyable, but they don't tend to give me any spiritual experiences, and I would be aware that anything spiritual I did feel would be no more real than the other effects of the drug.
Oh, and datura is a bad idea. It's got a very steep dose response curve and the concentration of scopolamine varies a great deal from plant to plant. Surviving a datura trip is as much a matter of luck as it is correct preparation. Very few people have a good time on deleriants such as scopolamine or dimenhydrinate anyway.

Also, there's something I've been wondering about spiritual drug use. Why is it that the people who indulge in it only ever tend to use botanical drugs and eschew synthetic chemical drugs? I put this down mainly to the wooly-headed spiritualist mindset assuming that natural = good and synthetic = bad, but I thought I'd ask.

[minorwork]

Quote by: davedes I disagree. Psychedelics are catalysts to entering this state. It may be foolish to depend on psychedelics to achieve this state, but using psychedelics to enhance the spiritual experience is not foolish.

Yes I can amend my description. Perhaps "brave, but foolhardy" and ignorant should be in there somewhere because the user of drug agents for spiritual development is either lazy or ignorant of techniques that do not relinquish control, but develop mastery of oneself and the mind.

Drugs bind soul to body. Ever hear of some one getting electro-shocks to forget their drug induced depression? I know a few. When techniques and methods of gaining knowledge and control of oneself are available that lead beyond the drugged state, why take a chance on drugs?

The goal is to demonstrate, by experience, soul's freedom from the body before physical death.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: SoylentGreen Eating it is ok, just don't accidentally boil up the leaves. Especially the roots and flowers. Have you ever heard of a writer called carlos castaneda. Wrote a series of books about a his experiences under the tutelage of a Yaqui shaman named don Juan Matus whom he met in 1960. Supposedly a true story, he gives details on preparations of plants for releasing the spirit.

See, my tour guide just told me avoid it all together, so I don't know in which context it is truly dangerous, which was probably wise anyway, given tourists' need to touch stuff. Either way, if I wanted to worship, I'd choose a less dangerous way to reach god or just get a good trip.

[Lickyfingerbum]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary See, my tour guide just told me avoid it all together, so I don't know in which context it is truly dangerous, which was probably wise anyway, given tourists' need to touch stuff. Either way, if I wanted to worship, I'd choose a less dangerous way to reach god or just get a good trip.

Yea ....wit that Datura it sounds like if you eat it the wrong way you might get closer to god than you ever wished

[Gods_Mercenary]

Not to mention, if you're in the southwestern wilderness, just the trip will likely get you killed by the elements if the toxin doesn't. I personally wouldn't want to do psychedelic drugs unless I could assure that I couldn't get out into the "wild", as it were.