Why should a person even pray?

[Rogue Cardinal]

One of the Atheists favorite lines is, "Give me proof of your God."

The most common response I see taking shape now a days is, "God gave you the word and Christ as the example, because of this there is no further proof given. You have faith or you don't."

this got me thinking. IF GOD isn't going to give anyone, Christian OR Atheist, any proof....then WHY would you pray?

Prayer would involve you asking God for something and hopefully getting a response back. IF you pray and God gives you what you want, wouldn't that be god giving you proof which you say he's not in the business of doing anymore?

Just one of my little thoughts for the day.

[Jack_Sparrow]

I think you can prey without needing anything back, just as you can talk to your grandad without asking for anything, or you can talk to someone in a coma without even needing a response (you just want to be heard).

I think some people have secrets in their hearts that they dont want to tell anyone, so they lift their burden by telling god (and as far as they are concerned, being heard by god), even if god only exists in their heads

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: Jack_Sparrow I think you can prey without needing anything back, just as you can talk to your grandad without asking for anything, or you can talk to someone in a coma without even needing a response (you just want to be heard). I think some people have secrets in their hearts that they dont want to tell anyone, so they lift their burden by telling god (and as far as they are concerned, being heard by god), even if god only exists in their heads

So you would argue much like I would in that in reality...prayer is just talking to ones self with the idea that the big man upstairs is listening and as such the effects of prayer are more psychological. It merely gives the person the FEELING they've been heard....even though God doesn't give proof of jack anymore.

Which leads me to the idea that prayer is bogus then. The power of prayer lives in your mind and nowhere else.

[Jack_Sparrow]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal So you would argue much like I would in that in reality...prayer is just talking to ones self with the idea that the big man upstairs is listening and as such the effects of prayer are more psychological. It merely gives the person the FEELING they've been heard....even though God doesn't give proof of jack anymore. Which leads me to the idea that prayer is bogus then. The power of prayer lives in your mind and nowhere else.

I think there are alot of things in the human mind that are either bogus or dillusional, yet evolution put them their. Just look at morality. That only exists in your head too doesnt it?

[thrashee]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal So you would argue much like I would in that in reality...prayer is just talking to ones self with the idea that the big man upstairs is listening and as such the effects of prayer are more psychological. It merely gives the person the FEELING they've been heard....even though God doesn't give proof of jack anymore. Which leads me to the idea that prayer is bogus then. The power of prayer lives in your mind and nowhere else.

I'd have to disagree. You're supposing that if God actually answers a prayer, that is stating that proof has been given, and according to you, Christians are claiming that they don't need proof.

No intelligent theist is going to cite an answered prayer as objective proof of God's existence. Prayer is inherently subjective.

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: thrashee I'd have to disagree. You're supposing that if God actually answers a prayer, that is stating that proof has been given, and according to you, Christians are claiming that they don't need proof. No intelligent theist is going to cite an answered prayer as objective proof of God's existence. Prayer is inherently subjective.

If God answered your prayer then would it not be proof of his existence?

I am aware of the myriad of ways a person could disprove a prayer. But that's not what I am really driving at.

the point is that if God doesn't need to GIVE any of us proof. In "idea" is argued by Christians that he WON'T. Then wouldn't it be fair to say that you shouldn't pray simply because God wouldn't answer your prayer as it would be proof to at least YOU that he existed?

Thish isn't about objective or subjective proof. It's simply about prayer. Nothing more.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal So you would argue much like I would in that in reality...prayer is just talking to ones self with the idea that the big man upstairs is listening and as such the effects of prayer are more psychological. It merely gives the person the FEELING they've been heard....even though God doesn't give proof of jack anymore. Which leads me to the idea that prayer is bogus then. The power of prayer lives in your mind and nowhere else.

People pray because they want to.

Your line of reasoning is just a way to tell people not to pray because if it doesn't have direct impact on our lives then we shouldn't do it.

Except that line of thinking falls apart taking into account the fact I could probably list 1000 or more things people do that either have no impact or are even harmful.

People do what they want. Prayer can have helpful benefits and it has even been proven. Even if the benefit comes form just increased mental clarity or less stress then there you have a benefit.

Quote by: HelioPrime Prayer can have helpful benefits and it has even been proven.

Probably not. See Prayer's Power to Heal Strangers Is Examined.

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: HelioPrime People pray because they want to. Your line of reasoning is just a way to tell people not to pray because if it doesn't have direct impact on our lives then we shouldn't do it. Except that line of thinking falls apart taking into account the fact I could probably list 1000 or more things people do that either have no impact or are even harmful. People do what they want. Prayer can have helpful benefits and it has even been proven. Even if the benefit comes form just increased mental clarity or less stress then there you have a benefit.

But if you are praying to a God that isn't going to answer your prayers because he's not in the business of proving to you or anyone else that he exists, then really what is the point?

At this are you are really doing is talking to yourself. I'm not saying that prayer is a BAD thing. You are putting words in my mouth. I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to pray if you KNOW nothing is going to happen because of anything you did.

On a psychological level I am sure that praying makes a person fell better. Just getting something off their chest or whatever. Saying something they feel needs to be said, if even to themselves. But really prayer is more like meditation if God doesn't answer prayers. So why not just meditate instead? You'd probably get more out of it that way.

[lynn]

Quote by: Jack_Sparrow I think you can prey without needing anything back, just as you can talk to your grandad without asking for anything, or you can talk to someone in a coma without even needing a response (you just want to be heard). I think some people have secrets in their hearts that they dont want to tell anyone, so they lift their burden by telling god (and as far as they are concerned, being heard by god), even if god only exists in their heads

But people do ask for things when they pray. People are always asking God to "please be with" or "please watch over" those who are ill or suffering in any way. They also ask him to forgive their sins. If they know they will not receive a response or any proof of a resolution of their request, then why do they ask? I don't see the point in asking for something you know you will never get.

[Deadeye]

God I'm getting sick and tired of this debate on this site.

Here's the deal:

For those of you who don't believe in God, then don't believe in God. It's legal, you can do that, it's a free country. When you are laying in bed dying tell your family to stop their damn blubbering. Explain to them that you are dying and that's it. Tell them that you are happy to dissolve into a stinking mass of rotten meat and nothing matters. Tell them to burn your body up and pour what's left on the roses.

For those of you who believe in God, then pray. It'll make you feel fullfilled. When you are about to die tell your family that you have lived a Godly life and that you have faith in a life after death. Explain to them that you will see them later on, and that you and they, and all of your family who has gone before them will meet later one and have a gay old time. It'll make you and your family feel better. Might happen too.

But what turns out is up for grabs. So decide which is best for you and stop bothering those who believe differently. BTW: I'll take the latter.

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: Deadeye God I'm getting sick and tired of this debate on this site. Here's the deal: For those of you who don't believe in God, then don't believe in God. It's legal, you can do that, it's a free country. When you are laying in bed dying tell your family to stop their damn blubbering. Explain to them that you are dying and that's it. Tell them that you are happy to dissolve into a stinking mass of rotten meat and nothing matters. Tell them to burn your body up and pour what's left on the roses. For those of you who believe in God, then pray. It'll make you feel fullfilled. When you are about to die tell your family that you have lived a Godly life and that you have faith in a life after death. Explain to them that you will see them later on, and that you and they, and all of your family who has gone before them will meet later one and have a gay old time. It'll make you and your family feel better. Might happen too. But what turns out is up for grabs. So decide which is best for you and stop bothering those who believe differently. BTW: I'll take the latter.

SO what did you really contribute to this conversation?

Nil

So since you take the later it is safe to assume that you are fine with the idea that praying is utterly useless assuming that God doesn't do diddley to proof his existence to people anymore? Furthermore, you sound like your really just hedging your bet hoping that you might be right and if you are good for you and if you're wrong....oh well no harm done right? Is that REALLY faith?

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal But if you are praying to a God that isn't going to answer your prayers because he's not in the business of proving to you or anyone else that he exists, then really what is the point?

Children ask Santa for toys. Even though he isn't real we don't tell them they can't believe or force the facts on them right away.

People provide thanks to trees, animals, hold a breath after passing a graveyard, avoid stepping on cracks, avoid walking under ladders, black cats, and all sorts of things you'd probably moan and roll your eyes over.

People do what they want. If you'd like to sit back and try and stop everything you see as irrational be my guest. Start with Santa however. If Santa isn't real then by your logic we should allow our kids to come to the belief in Santa.

At this are you are really doing is talking to yourself. I'm not saying that prayer is a BAD thing. You are putting words in my mouth. I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to pray if you KNOW nothing is going to happen because of anything you did.

Good things do happen to some people who pray. Even if it is just plain just de-stressing.

On a psychological level I am sure that praying makes a person fell better. Just getting something off their chest or whatever. Saying something they feel needs to be said, if even to themselves. But really prayer is more like meditation if God doesn't answer prayers. So why not just meditate instead? You'd probably get more out of it that way.

So your argument is people can pray, but they need to stop calling it pray and call it just meditation. Basically change the names of actions to reflect a more secular attitude.

[Dadoo]

My wrestling coach used to practice a technique inwhich we visualized winning our match.
In a sense, the obvious advantage is the potentiation of pure manifestation of intention.
Prayer I see as another form of manifesting what one wishes to change in one's life.
If you repeat a mantra, as in Hinduism, like " I willn't lie"
and hold this thought, you will lie less. Prayer helps in this fashion as a crystalized and ritualized form of recreation. To implore a God is more accessible to most than to believe the fruits of prayer are simply derived from 3 simple steps I have discovered:
1. Belief system, as foundation upholds
2. Direction of intention, directing
3. Action/ manifestation
We all pray internally to effect change. Those who do intentionally, through classic prayer techniques or personal ritual, tend to succeed in more and tend to be more at ease, I've found. Bulls in china shops aren't to blame until they 'reckon they're one and the same.
Prayer is a powerful physio-psychological tool.

[Jack_Sparrow]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal But if you are praying to a God that isn't going to answer your prayers because he's not in the business of proving to you or anyone else that he exists, then really what is the point? At this are you are really doing is talking to yourself. I'm not saying that prayer is a BAD thing. You are putting words in my mouth. I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to pray if you KNOW nothing is going to happen because of anything you did. On a psychological level I am sure that praying makes a person fell better. Just getting something off their chest or whatever. Saying something they feel needs to be said, if even to themselves. But really prayer is more like meditation if God doesn't answer prayers. So why not just meditate instead? You'd probably get more out of it that way.

I think you need to be more precise in what you say. The point in preying (general), as you have admitted, can be a psychological benefit. So there is a point in this respect.

The point in preying specifically to ask for things, when nothing can or ever will be given, can be said to be pointless. I believe even theists should agree that preying out requests is futile... are we not (apparently) the tools of god anyway? For instance, don’t moan about Africa in your head, buy a ticket and go there if you want to help, or donate money to those who do.

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: HelioPrime Children ask Santa for toys. Even though he isn't real we don't tell them they can't believe or force the facts on them right away. People provide thanks to trees, animals, hold a breath after passing a graveyard, avoid stepping on cracks, avoid walking under ladders, black cats, and all sorts of things you'd probably moan and roll your eyes over. People do what they want. If you'd like to sit back and try and stop everything you see as irrational be my guest. Start with Santa however. If Santa isn't real then by your logic we should allow our kids to come to the belief in Santa.

So in a nutshell YOU would compare your God to a superstition? We KNOW Santa isn't real. We only say Santa is real to our kids for fun. We eventually let them off the hook.

Comparing your God to Santa....is a terrible move. God is supposed to be REAL. You are basically equating God to an imaginary friend at this point. Do you think as a Christian you should do that? Are you openly admitting that God is imaginary?

If god is now also imaginary....then certainly there is no point in prayer.

Good things do happen to some people who pray. Even if it is just plain just de-stressing.

Actually the data doesn't back up what you say. There was a major study done and there was no real difference between the people that were prayed for versus the people that no one prayed for. The people that were prayed for actually did a tad bit worse but it wasn't a HUGE difference at all.

Prayer by an individual is FOR the individual since a God wouldn't answer the prayer anyway.....the person is just talking to themselves so they alone know what they are asking for.

So your argument is people can pray, but they need to stop calling it pray and call it just meditation. Basically change the names of actions to reflect a more secular attitude.

No my argument is that there is no need for prayer. You've already conceded that God is imaginary and no better than a superstition. Since God isn't real in your viewpoint as a Christian (gee isn't that weird) then prayer simply couldn't be answered.

First you tell me that God doesn't need to prove himself and no longer gives people signs and what not. Now you go as far to say he's not real.

IF he's not real.....then there literally is no point to prayer.

IF you are talking to yourself....then you are either insane or in some mode of reflection. IF your in some mode of reflection you are basically meditating. Prayer and meditation are VERY different.

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: Jack_Sparrow I think you need to be more precise in what you say. The point in preying (general), as you have admitted, can be a psychological benefit. So there is a point in this respect. The point in preying specifically to ask for things, when nothing can or ever will be given, can be said to be pointless. I believe even theists should agree that preying out requests is futile... are we not (apparently) the tools of god anyway? For instance, don’t moan about Africa in your head, buy a ticket and go there if you want to help, or donate money to those who do.

IF you pray to a God for things you know you can't receive because you know that God doesn't listen or if it does listen it will not act. And you repeat this process.....you are basically clinically insane.

SO now religion is a mental disorder?

I won't argue that.

I agree with you in that it's not enough to pray for change in say Africa. WWJD.....he'd get off his butt and go there and DO something. But not all Christians have that luxury so they try to pray. Which we have established is really pointless.

[Deadeye]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal SO what did you really contribute to this conversation? Nil

Here's my contribution....

Your endless debate on this subject is a waste of your time. Do you actually think that you are going to convince someone who believes in God not to? Or visa versa?

What really matters is not what you say, but what happens to you after you die. That's where the rubber meets the road. Your infinite stream of logic is simply blather.

It's also a little arrogant. Why would anyone want to convince someone who believes in God not to? It is after all none of your business. Why also would anyone be angry when a religious person approaches them on the street and asks them to consider their way of thinking about God? Just consider their message and move on, saying, "Thank you". Then forget what they've said if that's what blows your skirt up.

Applying logic to faith is impossible. Faith is a belief in the absence of logic.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal So in a nutshell YOU would compare your God to a superstition? We KNOW Santa isn't real. We only say Santa is real to our kids for fun. We eventually let them off the hook. Comparing your God to Santa....is a terrible move. God is supposed to be REAL. You are basically equating God to an imaginary friend at this point. Do you think as a Christian you should do that? Are you openly admitting that God is imaginary? If god is now also imaginary....then certainly there is no point in prayer.

Try reading what I wrote again.

I just questioned why YOU are not also demanding the people not allow the belief of Santa to spread. Do you also call people out on every superstition then engage in? Why shouldn't you then?

If you feel its all useless then please, be the first to start the crusade against the use of Santa since he is clearly a waster of time.

No my argument is that there is no need for prayer. You've already conceded that God is imaginary and no better than a superstition. Since God isn't real in your viewpoint as a Christian (gee isn't that weird) then prayer simply couldn't be answered. First you tell me that God doesn't need to prove himself and no longer gives people signs and what not. Now you go as far to say he's not real. IF he's not real.....then there literally is no point to prayer. IF you are talking to yourself....then you are either insane or in some mode of reflection. IF your in some mode of reflection you are basically meditating. Prayer and meditation are VERY different.

First of all re-read what I wrote and thanks for yet another round of insulting rants and generalizations. Is it really that hard to respond to anything without a "gee LOL @ christians line or two added into the texts?

You can't seem to grasp the basic facts. People pray because in some cases it appears to work. Enough to satisfy a scientific study? Likely not, since evidence doesn't make sense. It wouldn't make sense for God to provide absolute proof of existence. That's what faith and eventual judgement deal with.

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: Deadeye Here's my contribution.... Your endless debate on this subject is a waste of your time. Do you actually think that you are going to convince someone who believes in God not to? Or visa versa?

So Christians get free reign to voice their thoughts but everyone else has to shut up? No I don't think so.

Christians try to convert all the time? Everyone else just must simply stop because Christians think they own the patent on speaking their mind about God?

Get over yourself.

What really matters is not what you say, but what happens to you after you die. That's where the rubber meets the road. Your infinite stream of logic is simply blather.

I would say that doesn't even matter. You hold on to an idea of HEaven and Hell.....which within Christianity means different things. Will you die and go to Heaven where angels play harps? Or perhaps you'll get the Heaven where we float on the clouds? Better yet you might get to go to the Heaven where they each person has their own big ass mansion in the sky and tons of loot? Christina logic on the subject is well.....scatterbrained.

When you die that's it. IF you need to be consoled by the idea of a better place in the next life.....fine with me. But I'm just as entitled to my viewpoints as you are yours.

It's also a little arrogant. Why would anyone want to convince someone who believes in God not to? It is after all none of your business. Why also would anyone be angry when a religious person approaches them on the street and asks them to consider their way of thinking about God? Just consider their message and move on, saying, "Thank you". Then forget what they've said if that's what blows your skirt up.

I've never met a door to door Atheist. But those Christians sure like to come knocking on the door spreading the Gospel.

For the record I don't get angry when that happens. IT doesn't bother me when a Christina comes to my door. It's FUN. As soon as they get through with their speech I turn on the questions. I ask them about all sorts of stuff in the Bible. When they can't answer or they think I'm not saying the Bible right I grab their Bible from their hand and show it to them. Then I ask them to explain it. They never can. Then they get pissed at me for pointing out flaws in their Bible. So you see.....to me it's the Christians that get upset.

Furthermore.....why is it necessary for me to consider your message and you to not consider mine? Who is the arrogant one now? Wait let me get you a mirror.

There is NOTHING wrong with the open exchange of ideas. I'm not trying to convert you. I am defending my right to not believe in your cult like religion. I am pointing out the flaws that I see that make me not believe. It's not my fault if you can't defend your own religion. PErhaps you should go to church more and become more educated on the subject.

Applying logic to faith is impossible. Faith is a belief in the absence of logic.

I agree with you. It makes no logical sense to have faith.