Why should a person even pray?

[rez]

Quote by: Steve Johnson Jack your cynical statement reeks of someone who has no faith. Jesus was living breathing proof that faith can "move mountains " by healing people.

What. Are. you. talking. about.

Does this make sense to you?

What does cynicism have to do with this?

It is funny that you think there is a difference between someone who has no faith and someone who does. Like faith is some type of mechanism for an individual to see something different.

Faith is a concept. It is an idea. It is hoping and trusting something is true without actually having a reason for that hope and trust.

If you apply that logic with anything you will see something in a different light. There is no time limit, no prediction, no experiment, no critical thinking...just plain out nothing thinking at all! If you think you don't have faith. Stay steady and strong without recognizing the information given to you.

Proof and the word faith in the same paragraph just doesn't make sense. It boggles my mind that you think you can get away with even trying to rationalize that.

[Matt W]

Steve Johnson - this is a debate site. Kindly debate....don't preach.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[Jack_Sparrow]

Quote by: rez Proof and the word faith in the same paragraph just doesn't make sense. It boggles my mind that you think you can get away with even trying to rationalize that.

Sounds good, but now the above paragraph doesn’t make sense.

Don‘t scientists have to have faith that the aspect of the universe they are investigating is intelligible and logical so that they can proceed with the scientific method?

[rez]

Quote by: Jack_Sparrow Sounds good, but now the above paragraph doesn’t make sense. Don‘t scientists have to have faith that the aspect of the universe they are investigating is intelligible and logical so that they can proceed with the scientific method?

A scientist just needs to be able to think. Thinking and coming up with an answer, and seeing if that answer works does not require faith.

Something does not have to be logical in order for a human being to study it. Quantum Physics for example.

[Deadeye]

Quote by: rez A scientist just needs to be able to think. Thinking and coming up with an answer, and seeing if that answer works does not require faith. Something does not have to be logical in order for a human being to study it. Quantum Physics for example.

Yes, the logic of the illogical is logical. Furthermore things are what they don't seem, or appear to be. We also know that simple observation can change the observed. All of this makes the study of physics extremely exciting and both subjective and objective at the same time. It also requires some pretty (extremely) creative thinkers to further the science of it. (Is ending a sentence with a preposition scientific?)

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: Steve Johnson Prayer is one's communication with God Almighty. Prayer is akin to a spiritual telecommunication system. If one prays sincerely God ALWAYS answers prayers. The secret is praying with a sincere heart. There are many on this site who denigrate God and yet they are unable to explain how the world came to exist. How did time and space infinity become a reality? Moses gave humanity the answer through divine inspiration. Christ proved Moses by his eternal teachings, by his numerous miracles, by God raising Him from death. Yet that still is not enough for many of you. How can you question the efficacy of prayer when that was the modus operandi through which Christ worked beautiful miracles that greatly benefited the recipients. If one is not sincere. If one does not have faith in prayer how can you expect God to answer? God is within and without. He does hear our prayers. I have experienced the benefits of answered prayers many times and I am so grateful to a God that gave us Christ. Remember: " if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed you will say to this mountain, move and it will move and nothing will be impossible to you. "

I get quite a tickle at the "idea" that God only answers prayers of people with a sincere heart. I have further seen this mentality in a particular Baptist church where by people publicly ask to be saved by God only to have some preacher tell them to their face....they just weren't sincere enough. I go back to the next service and it's the same thing only this time the person acts more fervent. Still no dice....they weren't saved yet.....their heart wasn't sincere enough. This went on for over a month with a particular person. Finally, when they acted like they were on the verge of madness and were begging God to save them and screaming in church and crying hysterically.....finally the minister informed that person that they had been saved.

That's a crock of crap. If we follow what the good book says.....there is NOTHING about a sincere heart. It says, "Ask and yea shall receive".....that's it. There are no extra things to add to it. No conditions. Just ASK.

To say that we need to be of sincere heart......that's a cop out.

IF a man has cancer and begs earnestly till he dies.....then you say, "Well it must have been God's will."

It appears that Christians have an answer for everything and yet nothing.

[Jack_Sparrow]

Quote by: rez A scientist just needs to be able to think. Thinking and coming up with an answer, and seeing if that answer works does not require faith. Something does not have to be logical in order for a human being to study it. Quantum Physics for example.

If you face the unknown, mustn't you have faith there are any correct answers to be obtained through thinking and testing?

[Jack_Sparrow]

Quote by: Deadeye Yes, the logic of the illogical is logical.

That doesnt make logical sense

[Tycoon]

If you face the unknown, mustn't you have faith there are any correct answers to be obtained through thinking and testing?

There is always a correct answer to everything, whether it may be obtained or not. There is no need for faith in science.

And for that matter, there is certainly no testing and not much thinking involved in religion.

[Jack_Sparrow]

Quote by: Tycoon There is always a correct answer to everything, whether it may be obtained or not. There is no need for faith in science.

How do you know this with certainty?

[rez]

Quote by: Jack_Sparrow If you face the unknown, mustn't you have faith there are any correct answers to be obtained through thinking and testing?

We can find out what is correct by how well the discovery works. We have the ability to predict what the discovery should do depending on what we expect from the discovery. Of course, we also have time. Time gives us the ability to make many predictions to compare and contrast the results.

When you work in the present moment there is no unknown. We as humans work on what is discovered and move on from there.

[Jack_Sparrow]

Quote by: rez We can find out what is correct by how well the discovery works. We have the ability to predict what the discovery should do depending on what we expect from the discovery. Of course, we also have time. Time gives us the ability to make many predictions to compare and contrast the results.

Yes, and I think my statement of faith still applies to the whole process. It is barely still faith though, to be fair, as many times unknowns have turned out to be intelligable, so if we have a new unknown, we can be fairely sure it is intelligable, and not have to rely on faith.

Quote by: rez When you work in the present moment there is no unknown. We as humans work on what is discovered and move on from there.

Can you expand on what you mean by this?

[rez]

Quote by: Jack_Sparrow It is barely still faith though, to be fair, as many times unknowns have turned out to be intelligable

I will clarify.

When you say unknown I interpret as something undiscovered. For instance 2000 years ago people did not know what reality did on a quantum level. Quantum physics was not able to be understood at that time because humans didn't even know what an atom was. Humans build on top of previous knowledge.

Or how about when Darwin came up with the theory of evolution. He saw how natural selection worked on a physical level, but he did not know how it worked on the microscopic level. He had no clue what genes were or how they worked. In fact, Darwin did not come up with the concept of evolution in which there were a couple of scientists pondering this idea before him.

So in each case something was already known about something. People pile facts on previous facts. They work in the present without making leaping assumptions. We base our discoveries on previous discoveries and that is what makes this much more rational and productive.

[rez]

So I addressed the way in which theists attempt to explain reality. They start their philosophy of life with an assumption. My disagreement stems from the fact that theists don't want to honestly explain and understand reality.

So someone that doesn't care about actually using information that actually explains reality would not have a problem with praying. Since when does thinking or saying words actually translate into changing reality?

There are many other supernatural beliefs where others call praying a "spell", however, theists would not like to be associated with such superstitious irrational belief. They don't cast a spell onto water, they "pray" over it and "bless" it. They don't cast a spell on red whine, they "pray" and "bless it.

The double standard is so damn obvious that its quite astonishing that an individual could sit here and argue that "prayer" or casting a spell actually works.

However, I don't expect too much from these kind of individuals.

[thrashee]

Quote by: rez So I addressed the way in which theists attempt to explain reality. They start their philosophy of life with an assumption. My disagreement stems from the fact that theists don't want to honestly explain and understand reality.

You knew I'd have to chime in, eh

That's an unfair generalization. There are some theists who do want to honestly understand reality. You're assuming that all theists rebuke scientific fact because they're scared it will somehow contradict their faith. That's not always the case.

So someone that doesn't care about actually using information that actually explains reality would not have a problem with praying. Since when does thinking or saying words actually translate into changing reality?

Another generalization. You could have a person who cares not for scientific explanations--that doesn't mean they'll dig prayer. And you can have people (like myself) who believe in prayer but who don't believe this need compromise anything scientifically.

And think about your last statement. Thinking always changes reality, at least reality as constructed by man. Look around you: every manmade thing before you started out as a thought. The type of life you lead is tied intimately with your thinking patterns. Speech and expression is the next level of reality for thought, and action would be the next.

The double standard is so damn obvious that its quite astonishing that an individual could sit here and argue that "prayer" or casting a spell actually works.

It's an arbitrary double standard of your own making. One faith can practice its own rituals while rejecting the rituals of others without eliciting a double standard, and whether they'd liken those rituals to "superstition" or "magic" does not create a double standard either. These are your own labels that you are insisting they would not like. I fail to see how, based upon this, you're surmising that people shouldn't argue that prayer works.

[aseeker]

If we do not feel inclined to pray then we should not. It is a spiritual connection with "God" that makes us want to pray, not the logic of any argument. Anyone can have this relationship by asking, just as anyone can reject it - it is up to us. Personally my life is much better with it and I recommend it but cannot present an argument that justifies that according to human "logic"

[Steve Johnson]

I think this is a wonderful site because it generates lively debate. Some of you are offended by my defence of Christ, of prayer, of the faith. If you can give your viewpoint why can't I ? Or is this thread entitled " atheists corner "? If I answer the title question ' why should a person pray?' by pointing out that the purpose of prayer was vindicated by Jesus performing great miracles and giving us meaningful teachings that would promote peace and tranquility throughout humanity; the atheists in this thread get angry. They attempt to shout me down and shut me up. They claim I am preaching just because they disagree. Yet I am not forcing anyone to agree with me. It is clear that atheism has become its own religion. A religion that labels the prophets, Christ and the apostles as foolish to pray. A religion that hunts down anyone who has the courage to talk of faith, prayer, healing, miracles, peace and understanding, love and friendship.
The atheists have completely misunderstood the metaphysical laws of time and space infinity. Life has never been and will never be simply a physical affair. Otherwise how do you explain the miracles of the Christ. The blind seeing, the lame walking. Life has always been the marriage of the spiritual with the physical. Christ proved this.
Atheists would love to rub out Christ from history. He does not fit into their deceitful dogma. The religion of atheism will be defeated because it is a LIE.

[thrashee]

Quote by: Steve Johnson I think this is a wonderful site because it generates lively debate. Some of you are offended by my defence of Christ, of prayer, of the faith. If you can give your viewpoint why can't I ? Or is this thread entitled " atheists corner "?

Because you're not debating why you should pray, you are pontificating on your religion. You did it again in your follow up post.

Take note--I'm a theist telling you this.

[rez]

Quote by: thrashee You knew I'd have to chime in, eh That's an unfair generalization. There are some theists who do want to honestly understand reality. You're assuming that all theists rebuke scientific fact because they're scared it will somehow contradict their faith. That's not always the case.

You can't be honest when you start your philosophy off with an assumption. Theists could use currently known facts and support their supernatural beliefs. Some theists even use scientific terms when describing their supernatural beliefs, but the main point is they start their philosophy off with an assumption, which is something not very honest.

Another generalization. You could have a person who cares not for scientific explanations--that doesn't mean they'll dig prayer. And you can have people (like myself) who believe in prayer but who don't believe this need compromise anything scientifically.

Of course you can separate the two. Why would their be a problem with separating imagination from reality? The debate at hand is analyzing how prayer plays a role with reality.

Since when does speaking words out loud or in an individuals head effect what goes on within reality?

Thinking always changes reality, at least reality as constructed by man.

I am not sure what you mean, you might need to clarify. I'll try my best to clarify for you so we can continue with the conversation.

Thinking also depends on reality. A human imagined and thought that humans could fly based on what they saw in nature. Apply that same logic with ever other invention created.

It's an arbitrary double standard of your own making. One faith can practice its own rituals while rejecting the rituals of others without eliciting a double standard, and whether they'd liken those rituals to "superstition" or "magic" does not create a double standard either. These are your own labels that you are insisting they would not like. I fail to see how, based upon this, you're surmising that people shouldn't argue that prayer works.

It has to do with honesty. If an individual does not allow their set of claims to be analyzed and interpreted through the same methods and processes as everything else in reality, then there is a problem.

If there is just as much evidence to support one's own supernatural claims as there is for the other individuals claim, yet one rejects the others claims, then there is a problem.

A theist will typically accept their religious claims based on faith, but reject a Hindu's claims based on the lack of evidence they give. Certainly a double standard and certainly not honest at all.

[rez]

Quote by: thrashee Because you're not debating why you should pray, you are pontificating on your religion. You did it again in your follow up post. Take note--I'm a theist telling you this.

He is also not even attempting to respond to specific points. He doesn't use the vocabulary I am using. I go through each of his points and specifically use his vocabulary and try my best to communicate with him.