Happiness and Religion

[Gregory]

Those who would give up truth for happiness deserve neither.

TC

I disagree. At the end of your life, what you believed to be truth (which really may or may not have been truth at all), will be irrelevant, and you may or may not have been happy during that quest for "truth".

For those who would say that happiness can be gained at the extreme expense of others- try it- I think you'll find it is rather difficult.

In the quest for happiness one may pick up "truth" along the way; I do not believe, however, that a person can be happy without being intentional about it.

[oracle13]

That's not in your interest, just something you're interested in. it's a false belief about your interests.

The delusion undercuts the value of the happiness.

How can you say this is false? By what right do you know more about my desires than I do?

In what way is truth connected to happiness?

Your arguments require evidence, not just rhetoric.

[ThoughtCriminal]

I disagree. At the end of your life, what you believed to be truth (which really may or may not have been truth at all), will be irrelevant, and you may or may not have been happy during that quest for "truth".

For those who would say that happiness can be gained at the extreme expense of others- try it- I think you'll find it is rather difficult.

In the quest for happiness one may pick up "truth" along the way; I do not believe, however, that a person can be happy without being intentional about it.

While we live, we can identify what benefits us and what harms us: our interests. When our beliefs about our interests are correct, we can figure out how to get from where we are to where we ought to be. When they're not, while we might delude ourselves into some fool's semblance of happiness, our interests are not being served. It is therefore a false happiness, based on not knowing what's good for us. It would disappear in a moment if we did know, which just shows how worthless it is.

In the end, we die, and our existence as entities capable of experiencing the universe ends. But while our primary existence has ceased, we live on indirectly through what we leave behind that is a part of us, the children of our minds and bodies. And what we do before we die has a lasting impact on those remainders, forming our legacy. False happiness while we live not only goes against our living interests but diminishes our legacy as well.

TC

[ThoughtCriminal]

How can you say this is false? By what right do you know more about my desires than I do?

In what way is truth connected to happiness?

Your arguments require evidence, not just rhetoric.

As I've said two or three times now, what you desire is not the same thing as what's in your interests. Your interests are what benefit you, as opposed to harming you. It is quite possible to desire something that harms you or fail to desire something that benefits you.

Until you actually listen carefully and make a genuine attempt to understand what I'm saying, you're going to waste my time with attacks against a straw man. Let me know when you're ready to debate me, instead.

TC

[oracle13]

By what right do you know more about my desires than I do?

I restate my previous point in response.

what you desire is not the same thing as what's in your interests.

NO. I am debating THIS STATEMENT because it clearly is not deductive logic nor in any way inherently true, in fact, it is basically a contradiction in terms and requires some kind of evidence to back it up.

[gela]

In life, I believe that happiness is the most important thing.

Religion brings alot of happiness to alot of people.

Its not just about a belief in a false god, the church provides support and social networking for people going through tough times.

Prayer is also good. My scripture teacher use to tell us to always say 'sorry, thankyou, please' in our prayers, in that order.
So every night, I would go through everything I did wrong, I would say thankyou for everything I have, and then I would ask for something.
Although I by no means believe in any god any more, I still think that it was a good habbit to be in.

Other beliefs such as heaven also bring alot of comfort. When loved ones die, its nice to believe that they are together in a better place.

Despite all this, I don't think religion is needed. Some people come to depend on it, because that is how they are raised. But if everyone were raised as confident, secure individuals; then I don't believe that religion could bring anything to their lives that atheism can't also bring.
That said, it will be a cold day in hell when everyone is raised to be confident and secure.

[ThoughtCriminal]

I restate my previous point in response.

That's a concession, not a refutation. I don't care what you desire, as that's not what morality is about. Morality is about what's good or bad for us, regardless of what we desire.

NO. I am debating THIS STATEMENT because it clearly is not deductive logic nor in any way inherently true, in fact, it is basically a contradiction in terms and requires some kind of evidence to back it up.

Why would your desires automatically match your interests?

TC

[ThoughtCriminal]

Let's deal with the semantics, first.

From interest: - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Main Entry: 1in·ter·est
Pronunciation: \ˈin-t(ə-)rəst; ˈin-tə-ˌrest, -ˌtrest; ˈin-tərst\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, probably alteration of earlier interesse, from Anglo-French & Medieval Latin; Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin, from Latin, to be between, make a difference, concern, from inter- + esse to be — more at is
Date: 15th century
1 a (1): right, title, or legal share in something (2): participation in advantage and responsibility b: business, company
2 a: a charge for borrowed money generally a percentage of the amount borrowed b: the profit in goods or money that is made on invested capital c: an excess above what is due or expected <returned the insults with interest>
3: advantage, benefit; also : self-interest
4: special interest
5 a: a feeling that accompanies or causes special attention to an object or class of objects : concern b: something that arouses such attention c: a quality in a thing arousing interest

Definition (1) is about owning part of something. This is not the definition we're talking about here.

Definition (2) is about charging someone interest. Again, not relevant.

Finally, we get to definition (3), which points us as synonyms: advantage, benefit, self-interest, That's what we're talking about.

Definition (4) is about political factions. Also a miss.

Further down the line, we get to what oracle13 mistakenly thinks we're talking about. Definition (5), is about the things we give special attention to.

I think I've cleared up oracle13's misunderstanding at this point, and look forward to him addressing my argument instead of tilting at windmills of his own imagining.

TC

[ThoughtCriminal]

In life, I believe that happiness is the most important thing.

Religion brings alot of happiness to alot of people.

Its not just about a belief in a false god, the church provides support and social networking for people going through tough times.

Prayer is also good. My scripture teacher use to tell us to always say 'sorry, thankyou, please' in our prayers, in that order.
So every night, I would go through everything I did wrong, I would say thankyou for everything I have, and then I would ask for something.
Although I by no means believe in any god any more, I still think that it was a good habbit to be in.

Other beliefs such as heaven also bring alot of comfort. When loved ones die, its nice to believe that they are together in a better place.

Despite all this, I don't think religion is needed. Some people come to depend on it, because that is how they are raised. But if everyone were raised as confident, secure individuals; then I don't believe that religion could bring anything to their lives that atheism can't also bring.
That said, it will be a cold day in hell when everyone is raised to be confident and secure.

Are you familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

TC

[oracle13]

Morality is about what's good or bad for us, regardless of what we desire.

NO, this statement can easily be debated. As David Hume has said, reason springs from the passions.

One could easily argue that my desire for pleasure and my aversion to pain will determine moral behaviour, not the other way around.

[Morality Games]

NO, this statement can easily be debated. As David Hume has said, reason springs from the passions.

One could easily argue that my desire for pleasure and my aversion to pain will determine moral behaviour, not the other way around.

Your desire for pleasure and your aversion to pain will influence behavior. The adjective 'moral' is a clumsy addition. Morality isn't about pleasuring yourself and avoiding pain at all costs. Sometimes you need to suffer a great deal for what benefits you.

Happiness is a fine thing to have, but it isn't the underlying drive behind being human or moral behavior. My own existence is the proof of that, since I am rarely happy and will try to avoid pleasures if I think they are morally wrong.

[ThoughtCriminal]

NO, this statement can easily be debated. As David Hume has said, reason springs from the passions.

One could easily argue that my desire for pleasure and my aversion to pain will determine moral behaviour, not the other way around.

Feel free to argue against it, then. I would point out, as I recently did, that pleasure and pain are simplification of the indicators of whether our needs are being met.

TC